Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[Urban Cowboy]

It would replace administrative offices that would be relocated off site. 

[LKN704]

4 hours ago, CltFlyer said:

I agree.  The aforementioned location doesn't seem logical, but Charlotte is in desperate need of a 3rd lounge and perhaps it is the only space available for the foreseeable future.

  Once DCA opens it's new AC in the new concourse.  Every other hub except for JFK (ORD, DFW, MIA, ORD, LAX, DCA, PHL, and PHX) will have at least 3 lounges (between standard Admirals Clubs and International Flagship Lounges).

You can't really compare CLT to ORD/DFW/MIA/LAX/DCA/PHL in that each of those hubs has a lot more higher-yielding traffic (especially international) that demands more lounge space.

AA really likes CLT, but they aren't in the same competitive position in Charlotte as they are in their other hubs where they actually need to invest their own money for terminal enhancements/improvements. Other than giving the tiny Admirals Club in Concourse B (which is so small it's disgraceful) a refresh, I don't think AA has really opened up their wallet to fund projects at CLT like they have elsewhere. For example, they are spending a billion dollars plus to refurbish and reconstruct their terminal space in LAX, and IIRC they are providing a significant amount of funding at DFW to build the new Terminal F. I also think the new DCA Concourse E that's opening tomorrow was financed heavily by AA themselves (I could be wrong). 

It should be telling that AA was okay with operating multiple European flights in 2019 without any concrete plans to build showers in any lounge in CLT. 

[CltFlyer]

2 hours ago, LKN704 said:

You can't really compare CLT to ORD/DFW/MIA/LAX/DCA/PHL in that each of those hubs has a lot more higher-yielding traffic (especially international) that demands more lounge space.

AA really likes CLT, but they aren't in the same competitive position in Charlotte as they are in their other hubs where they actually need to invest their own money for terminal enhancements/improvements. Other than giving the tiny Admirals Club in Concourse B (which is so small it's disgraceful) a refresh, I don't think AA has really opened up their wallet to fund projects at CLT like they have elsewhere. For example, they are spending a billion dollars plus to refurbish and reconstruct their terminal space in LAX, and IIRC they are providing a significant amount of funding at DFW to build the new Terminal F. I also think the new DCA Concourse E that's opening tomorrow was financed heavily by AA themselves (I could be wrong). 

It should be telling that AA was okay with operating multiple European flights in 2019 without any concrete plans to build showers in any lounge in CLT. 

I agree that CLT's function in the AA network doesn't necessitate as a lot of the other hubs, but I do think there is sufficient demand for at least one more.  Ideally, I think one would go perfectly in E as it's quite the haul from even the C/D club (especially if you are connecting entirely in E).  I'm surprised they haven't contemplated one in one of the many expansions or original design. of E  (Maybe they have and decided against it?).  If American Eagle terminals like concourse F at PHL and the E satellite at DFW (this may be using an old Delta Sky Club footprint) can have one, E at CLT should as well imho.

I imagine that they will put one in either the B or C expansion (maybe both).  It is crazy to think that the B and C expansions will be the first real "mainline" concourse new build expansions for AA/US at CLT since the expansion of concourse D in 2003.  I assume that AA will be funding good portion of the bill for these.  Hopefully they will be more on par with the A North Expansions and less of an extension of the current style of B and C.  (while albeit are nice, but are still very cramped compared to A North).

I don't really see a Flagship Lounge or anything in CLT's future due to the nature of our international traffic being mostly lower yielding.  Even PHL suffered from the same issue in comparison (see how many leisure TATL flights it took for them to finally get a proper Flagship Lounge).  I personally think we have a better shot at a Lufthansa Senator Lounge than a AA Flagship Lounge.  Especially, if LH passengers can no longer use the Admirals Club. 

On another note, I do remember reading that AA was exploring a new lounge in concourse A after the latest gate addition.  I wonder if an atrium is the best solution they could come up with in the short term.  Perhaps they are feeling the heat slightly from the Centurion Lounge amenities and would make this a nicer Admirals Club, given how they like to compete in other areas.   

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by CltFlyer

[LKN704]

1 hour ago, CltFlyer said:

I agree that CLT's function in the AA network doesn't necessitate as a lot of the other hubs, but I do think there is sufficient demand for at least one more.  Ideally, I think one would go perfectly in E as it's quite the haul from even the C/D club (especially if you are connecting entirely in E).  I'm surprised they haven't contemplated one in one of the many expansions or original design. of E  (Maybe they have and decided against it?).  If American Eagle terminals like concourse F at PHL and the E satellite at DFW (this may be using an old Delta Sky Club footprint) can have one, E at CLT should as well imho.

I imagine that they will put one in either the B or C expansion (maybe both).  It is crazy to think that the B and C expansions will be the first real "mainline" concourse new build expansions for AA/US at CLT since the expansion of concourse D in 2003.  I assume that AA will be funding good portion of the bill for these.  Hopefully they will be more on par with the A North Expansions and less of an extension of the current style of B and C.  (while albeit are nice, but are still very cramped compared to A North).

I don't really see a Flagship Lounge or anything in CLT's future due to the nature of our international traffic being mostly lower yielding.  Even PHL suffered from the same issue in comparison (see how many leisure TATL flights it took for them to finally get a proper Flagship Lounge).  I personally think we have a better shot at a Lufthansa Senator Lounge than a AA Flagship Lounge.  Especially, if LH passengers can no longer use the Admirals Club. 

On another note, I do remember reading that AA was exploring a new lounge in concourse A after the latest gate addition.  I wonder if an atrium is the best solution they could come up with in the short term.  Perhaps they are feeling the heat slightly from the Centurion Lounge amenities and would make this a nicer Admirals Club, given how they like to compete in other areas.   

 

I do agree there needs to be another club location.

There was supposed to be a club in E, however it got cut out of the project after 9/11 amongst other E projects (there was supposed to be a ramp tower constructed on the concourse as well). I agree that E would seem like the most logical candidate for a club but I don't think there is space there presently. Recall there used to be an additional club years ago on the D/E connector that closed during US's first bankruptcy...the space is now occupied by the Pinkberry. 

Come to think of it, I wonder if the atrium lounge would simply be a "temporary" club of some sorts to allow AA to temporarily close the C club to completely renovate the space. I agree there is no way CLT is getting a Flagship Lounge. Years ago there was talk of US and LH opening a joint-international lounge but obviously nothing came of it. LH must truly be embarrassed of its product offering at CLT...premium passengers IIRC are given a $20 food voucher to compensate for the lack of lounge access. Classy. I would say the chances of CLT getting a LH lounge are slim to none though. They recently closed their lounges in ATL and PHL over the years, and I believe Detroit is the only small US station left with a lounge. Then again, ATL and PHL both have third party lounges their passengers can access. 

I also remember reading about a potential club in A, but as in E, I am not sure there is space for one. 

I have mentioned this above, and I will say it again, I would not be surprised if a more thorough renovation/reconfiguration of B/C is done when the two fingers are constructed. The renovations just recently completed are nice and all, but still essentially lip stick on a crowded, congested pig. 

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

I also think it was mentioned that Delta was considering a SkyClub in the new terminal. Delta is fairly liberal with their club locations and the Delta daily passenger load is comparable to JAX which has a Sky Club.

Edited April 20, 2021 by CarolinaDaydreamin

[LKN704]

8 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

I also think it was mentioned that Delta was considering a SkyClub in the new terminal. Delta is fairly liberal with their club locations and the Delta daily passenger load is comparable to JAX which has a Sky Club.

There was a rendering that showed a Delta Sky Club located in the mezzanine level of Concourse A North Phase II. Floor plans for the expansion do show that there will be lounge space there, but whether Delta wants to actually utilize the space is anyones guess. 

I do think that Charlotte could probably support a Sky Club, however going back number of flights alone isn't necessarily a good indicator. I am willing to bet Delta moves more premium traffic through JAX then it does in CLT...just look at the aircraft type they operate in JAX...a mixture of 757s/A321s/739s (which all have much larger premium traffic), while CLT gets solely 717s except for the occasional A319 and whatever they operate to Salt Lake City. 

Because SkyClub membership is linked to your SkyMiles account (as is the access pass for those with an designated Amex card), they should know how many members flow through each city. 

I do agree they are fairly liberal with their locations. Honestly out of the US3+Alaska they have the nicest club rooms, with the best food and drink offerings. Almost as nice as a Centurion Lounge. 

Edited April 20, 2021 by LKN704

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

29 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

There was a rendering that showed a Delta Sky Club located in the mezzanine level of Concourse A North Phase II. Floor plans for the expansion do show that there will be lounge space there, but whether Delta wants to actually utilize the space is anyones guess. 

I do think that Charlotte could probably support a Sky Club, however going back number of flights alone isn't necessarily a good indicator. I am willing to bet Delta moves more premium traffic through JAX then it does in CLT...just look at the aircraft type they operate in JAX...a mixture of 757s/A321s/739s (which all have much larger premium traffic), while CLT gets solely 717s except for the occasional A319 and whatever they operate to Salt Lake City. 

Because SkyClub membership is linked to your SkyMiles account (as is the access pass for those with an designated Amex card), they should know how many members flow through each city. 

I do agree they are fairly liberal with their locations. Honestly out of the US3+Alaska they have the nicest club rooms, with the best food and drink offerings. Almost as nice as a Centurion Lounge. 

While there is higher variety in Sky Lounges,  there are many Sky Clubs nicer than Centurion Lounges. I think Delta should get more aggressive at CLT with more gates.

[LKN704]

Interesting (although not expected) up-gauge: CLT-Key West (EYW) goes all mainline this summer; a whopping 5x daily A319 service. This is the first time this route has featured mainline. 

For those not familiar with EYW, it's a pretty neat airport as the runway is extremely short...it might even be the shortest runway in the US to feature mainline service. 

[csweet]

22 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

While there is higher variety in Sky Lounges,  there are many Sky Clubs nicer than Centurion Lounges. I think Delta should get more aggressive at CLT with more gates.

They will have more gates when they move into the A Phase II terminal.

[CltFlyer]

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/charlotte-douglas-received-more-than-55000-airplane-noise-complaints-2020/TG7D3IHYIVB5HG4QSG5WQ5ERKA/

Insane amount for the number of flights (or lackthereof) last year.  I  guess when people are stuck inside their homes, they just notice it more.

 

[CltFlyer]

On 4/19/2021 at 3:08 PM, stiluvclt said:

Hey, anyone going to CLT soon, how about snapping some up-to-date construction pics of Terminal & E. Just trying to keep up. Thanx!

The airport posted update pics of the Terminal Entrance project on twitter yesterday.  You can really get a sense of just how much higher the ceiling in the expansion will be!

 

[CLT2014]

50 minutes ago, CltFlyer said:

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/charlotte-douglas-received-more-than-55000-airplane-noise-complaints-2020/TG7D3IHYIVB5HG4QSG5WQ5ERKA/

Insane amount for the number of flights (or lackthereof) last year.  I  guess when people are stuck inside their homes, they just notice it more.

Per the video on the article, just 25 people = 98% of the complaints. Bless their hearts (and their carpal tunnel from hitting submit over and over). 

Edited April 22, 2021 by CLT2014

[CltFlyer]

6 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

Per the video on the article, just 25 people = 98% of the complaints. Bless their hearts (and their carpal tunnel from hitting submit over and over). 

In case anyone was curious.  The math comes out to each person submitting on average 5.89 noise complaints per day.

[CLTdev18]

From a news article about the noise complaints in June 2019...

 

Quote

Some homeowners have actually automated their complaints by using a microphone on their roof. When a plane flies over, the microphone picks up the sound and sends out a complaint.

 

[KJHburg]

40 minutes ago, CLTdev18 said:

From a news article about the noise complaints in June 2019...

 

 

Not to be ugly but why not move?  My grandparents lived in Thomasboro and when planes flew over when we were outside on the porch we just learned to shout over them.  and this was the mid 1980s when the airport was not as big.   I had someone look at a home once and then heard some planes fly over in NW Charlotte and that was the end of that but others it does not bother.  Now if we had a 24 hour freight operation like a Fedex or UPS hub might be different.  I have had people run out of houses when a train horn has blown too. 

[elrodvt]

1 minute ago, KJHburg said:

Not to be ugly but why not move?  My grandparents lived in Thomasboro and when planes flew over when we were outside on the porch we just learned to shout over them.  and this was the mid 1980s when the airport was not as big.   I had someone look at a home once and then heard some planes fly over in NW Charlotte and that was the end of that but others it does not bother.  Now if we had a 24 hour freight operation like a Fedex or UPS hub might be different.  I have had people run out of houses when a train horn has blown too. 

Because their property values haven't kept up with rest of charlotte so they can't afford it?? Who wants to live in a flight path? I sure don't. 

I wonder if charlotte is using all possible noise mitigating measures? Many of them aren't liked by the airlines if I remember correctly due to slower or higher fuel issues?

Given our bias towards companies over people in nc I kind of doubt they are pushing for things AA doesn't like. Some of you pilots must know?

 

[KJHburg]

1 minute ago, elrodvt said:

Because their property values haven't kept up with rest of charlotte so they can't afford it?? Who wants to live in a flight path? I sure don't. 

I wonder if charlotte is using all possible noise mitigating measures? Many of them aren't liked by the airlines if I remember correctly due to slower or higher fuel issues?

Given our bias towards companies over people in nc I kind of doubt they are pushing for things AA doesn't like. Some of you pilots must know?

 

there is mitigating factors and things they can do with these people who are very concerned about noise and dont want to leave their homes.  extra soundproofing but when someone has a microphone on their roof that is another matter.  Maybe the airport should offer to buy these people out but what I saying is other people might not care as much.  I would like to know where these 25 people with the most complaints live in general and maybe the airport like I said could do extra soundproofing or buy them out. 

[xapostrophe]

The airlines already use noise abatement departure procedures.  The planes are already way quieter than they were even 20 years ago.  The routing after departure is somewhat designed to keep the noise down.    Not a whole lot more that can be done.

 

The airport opened in 1936.  If you built or purchased a house anywhere near the airport after that you should be forbidden from complaining.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by xapostrophe
Misspelled words

[elrodvt]

If they really do all the possible abatement, including maybe more approach routes, especially VFR routes that go over less populated areas then yeah that's all that can be done.

Just because someone put up a microphone doesn't mean they're unreasonable about the noise level that is reported. I wonder what Db they are set at and if that is included in the "auto complaint".

People new to the area may not realize what areas are noisy.  Additionally ,flight paths have changed. Also, the airport is a LOT busier. than it was. So I think that comment is a bit unfair.

It's' funny to me how everyone immediately takes the side of the airport and don't seem to consider that people may have legitimate issues.  That's a problem. I for one would like to see the data over time and how it relates to a sample of the complainants before I made a judgement.

[CLT2014]

The airport in Orange County, CA has very aggressive noise abatement. No departures before 7AM, no landings after 10PM. There are noise monitors west of the runway and the airline can be fined if they trigger them. Depending on conditions, to avoid hitting that decibel level, the pilots apply the brakes at the end of the runway, rev the engines to maximum power, and then release the break..... you scream down the runway, then they do a very very sharp climb to rocket up to 800 feet and it throws everything on the ground to the back of the plane... as the plane approaches the noise monitors, they throw the power back down and level the plane to coast over the residential areas (feels like your falling). Once the plane is over the ocean it starts climbing again and then turns back over land.

In this departure video you can hear them throttle back power at 0:52 over the houses to reduce noise and then resume climbing again at 2:22. 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXass18CB2U

This type of departure pattern isn't cheap nor efficient, but the rich people of Newport Beach got their way.

 

Given only 25 residents did the majority of the complaints, I wonder if the airport has considered purchasing their property. It has already bought out many neighborhoods that were near the airport to give it a noise buffer. It could just make these 25 properties airport owned. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by CLT2014

[kermit]

^ CLT has had an aggressive program of noise abatement subsidies (purchasing new windows, insulation, etc.) for residents in flight path areas for many, many years. The mitigation program has been supplemented with a home purchase program which is intended to eliminate residential uses in high noise areas. All of the purchased land is now owned by CLT and is planned to be used for industrial and warehouse projects. Finally, the last new runway was built in a configuration where approaches are almost entirely over unpopulated areas (e.g. 485 or industrial areas), one neighborhood was substantially impacted by this new runway and the entire neighborhood was bought out. The next new runway should further reduce residential noise exposure as it will eliminate the runway that has an approach over Westerly Hills and Enderly Park.  I honestly don't see how anyone in Mecklenburg can claim that they are experiencing more aircraft noise now than back when they purchased their house.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I would guess that CLT management has made more of an effort at noise mitigation than most airports.   

Quote

CLT’s Noise Program

Charlotte Douglas International Airport (CLT) began to implement its federally-approved FAR Part 150 NCP in 1987.

The program was designed to use various methods to mitigate noise impact. Since the NCP’s inception, the Airport has spent more than $67 million in the local community, which includes home buyout, noise abatement, noise mitigation and rezoning property to uses compatible with CLT.

To date, nearly 1,000 homes, six churches and three schools have been insulated. Additionally, almost 400 properties in high noise zones, including mobile home parks, have been purchased by the Airport.

https://www.cltairport.com/community/noise/part-150/

https://www.wfae.org/local-news/2013-04-03/charlotte-airport-looks-to-buy-neighborhoods-land

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by kermit

[elrodvt]

Would seem to make the most sense to just buy them out. I'd be curious though to know how much noise is considered enough of a nuisance to mandate action and who the regulator or arbiter is.

That departure method at Orange sounds like a blast! I'm sure more can be done here along those lines but what's the most cost effective solution?

My hometown airport, BTV, got a national guard wing and had to purchase a lot of homes. It was a long drawn out fight it memory serves.

[LKN704]

Just an FYI to those asking for construction photos, the hourly deck is free for the first hour and should provide a pretty good view of the terminal lobby expansion. 

4 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

The airport in Orange County, CA has very aggressive noise abatement. No departures before 7AM, no landings after 10PM. There are noise monitors west of the runway and the airline can be fined if they trigger them. Depending on conditions, to avoid hitting that decibel level, the pilots apply the brakes at the end of the runway, rev the engines to maximum power, and then release the break..... you scream down the runway, then they do a very very sharp climb to rocket up to 800 feet and it throws everything on the ground to the back of the plane... as the plane approaches the noise monitors, they throw the power back down and level the plane to coast over the residential areas (feels like your falling). Once the plane is over the ocean it starts climbing again and then turns back over land.

In this departure video you can hear them throttle back power at 0:52 over the houses to reduce noise and then resume climbing again at 2:22. 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXass18CB2U

This type of departure pattern isn't cheap nor efficient, but the rich people of Newport Beach got their way.

 

Given only 25 residents did the majority of the complaints, I wonder if the airport has considered purchasing their property. It has already bought out many neighborhoods that were near the airport to give it a noise buffer. It could just make these 25 properties airport owned. 

IIRC from what I have read (as well as from my friend who works for the OC government) the procedure in the video is actually no longer required for new aircraft but the procedure is dependent on the operator. Delta and Southwest still do it, but in general 737 NG/MAX do not have to.  Honestly the biggest hassle flying into/out of SNA is the possibility of diversion when arriving at night. It must be relatively common as AA has this clause on their website:

Orange County/John Wayne Airport in Santa Ana, California, has a curfew for inbound flights of 11 p.m. due to noise restrictions. If we are aware that headwinds will be particularly strong enroute and will impact the flight's arrival time, perhaps making the flight arrive too late to land at Orange County, an announcement will be made that it is possible that the flight will land at Los Angeles International Airport instead. In the event a diversion decision occurs after the aircraft has departed, the in-flight crew will inform you.

Modern aircraft are extremely quiet from the indoors of a residence when flying overhead during take off and landing. I live roughly 3 miles (as the crow flies) upwind from DCA (Dupont Circle) and aircraft departing to the north often fly quite low directly over my apartment building yet I never heard them. What I do often hear, however, is the thrust reversers of landing aircraft (and I often hear those inside) yet I never see anyone complaining about that, and whenever people complain about aircraft noise they complain about aircraft directly overhead. 

I'd like to know the geographical distribution of those complaining about noise in Charlotte. 

[LKN704]

Data is in: CLT was the 18th busiest airport in the world by passenger count in 2020, and sixth busiest after ATL, DFW, DEN, ORD, and LAX. 

[CltFlyer]

Service to Columbus, GA (CSG) begins on August 17th!   Columbus is home to Fort Benning.  The 5th largest military base in the country (population over 100,000) and is a huge base for Army Basic training.  It is also only about 45 minutes away from Auburn, AL and Auburn University (War Eagle!).   AA will start flights to both CLT and DFW.  I think this is a logical add.

 

https://www.ledger-enquirer.com/news/business/article251029354.html