Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[15895]

12 hours ago, TCLT said:

AA is expanding domestic service because that's where the demand is with the pandemic still suppressing international and business travel. AA is focusing on CLT specifically because it produces above system average unit revenue and margins. It is also perfectly geographically positioned to serve sun markets which currently have the highest demand. This isn't a precursor to CLT becoming a major international gateway. It's just building the existing strength of the domestic hub. CLT will eventually return to being a minor seasonal gateway to Europe, but don't expect more than that in the near term.

Agreed.

 

I think Charlotte-Honolulu goes away once the international demand returns. Where else are they going to send these planes in the current environment.

[TCLT]

6 hours ago, LKN704 said:

although not on a 772. 

For reference, the A330-300 had 291 seats and the A330-200 had 247 seats. The B777-200 currently has 273 seats (albeit with a slightly more premium mix). There's absolutely no reason the B777-200 wouldn't be feasible for high volume summer tourist destinations like Rome and Paris. I tend to agree Barcelona is probably not going to come back as a popular destination for US tourists for a while so we probably won't see a flight from CLT come back soon. I'd expect to see Dublin and Madrid resume on a B777-200 as they've been historically popular and are partner hubs although both could be candidates for the A321XLR once that is delivered to AA. 

 

51 minutes ago, BarrenLucidity said:

The real question is will CLT get new international routes such as to ATH? If we were to expand it would be to other hubs such as HEL or DOH.

I think future long haul adds at CLT are going to be driven by the A321XLR (so western and central Europe mainly) and will be highly dependent on the recovery of European summer vacations. But with the new alliances with JetBlue and Alaska the next several years of international growth coming out of the pandemic will most likely be focused on JFK/PHL, SEA, and as always DFW.

[LKN704]

1 hour ago, BarrenLucidity said:

Paris could only return on a 772. They aren't going to allocate a 787 to CLT and they don't have any other wide bodies now. CLT is a 777 base and they 100% aren't going to put a 773 here. 

Munich, Frankfurt, Dublin, etc. will return. Barcelona will return as it is a One World hub. 

The real question is will CLT get new international routes such as to ATH? If we were to expand it would be to other hubs such as HEL or DOH. At the end though I would put money on no. Not as long as PHL has a ton of capacity and JFK exists. They might also expand DCA a bit but after CLT. 

AA is receiving 50 A321XLRs between 2023-2025 and has a proposed range of 4500nmi putting most of Europe within range of Charlotte. 

No one is questioning the return of DUB/MAD/MUC. All are scheduled to return this year. Barcelona is not a Oneworld hub. Iberia does not offer onward connections from BCN except for two or three Spanish domestic cities. Barcelona's traffic from the US is heavily dependent on the cruise market and who knows when that will return. 

Frankly Raja's comments in this article (https://airlineweekly.com/2021/05/american-plans-a-smaller-more-profitable-international-network-post-pandemic/) make me think we may even see more European routes cut in favor of increased reliance on JV partners. 

1 minute ago, TCLT said:

For reference, the A330-300 had 291 seats and the A330-200 had 247 seats. The B777-200 currently has 273 seats (albeit with a slightly more premium mix). There's absolutely no reason the B777-200 wouldn't be feasible for high volume summer tourist destinations like Rome and Paris. I tend to agree Barcelona is probably not going to come back as a popular destination for US tourists for a while so we probably won't see a flight from CLT come back soon. I'd expect to see Dublin and Madrid resume on a B777-200 as they've been historically popular and are partner hubs although both could be candidates for the A321XLR once that is delivered to AA. 

 

I think future long haul adds at CLT are going to be driven by the A321XLR (so western and central Europe mainly) and will be highly dependent on the recovery of European summer vacations. But with the new alliances with JetBlue and Alaska the next several years of international growth coming out of the pandemic will most likely be focused on JFK/PHL, SEA, and as always DFW.

It's easy to fill seats in the summer to Rome and Paris from just about any hub in the US. It's not the seat capacity that would potentially be a problem at CLT. You mentioned it yourself; it's the higher ratio of premium seats compared to the A330 that could be an issue. There are 9 more business class seats (37)  on the 777 than the A333 (28) in addition to a 24-seat Premium Economy cabin that the A333 lacked. The 777 has a whopping 17 more Business seats than the A332 (20) and 3 more Premium Economy seats. 

The question is whether AA would want to use such aircraft on CLT-FCO where the majority of Business seats will likely be filled with upgrades/non-revenue passengers or use the aircraft on a more lucrative route where the percentage of paid business class tickets is higher. 

Given the way the pandemic changed international travel, I wouldn't be surprised if AA internally changed their minds in the way they were going to utilize the A321XLR. Realistically the only new markets I see for CLT are probably to secondary Germany cities, namely Stuttgart, Hamburg, or Dusseldorf. 

[TCLT]

2 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

The question is whether AA would want to use such aircraft on CLT-FCO where the majority of Business seats will likely be filled with upgrades/non-revenue passengers or use the aircraft on a more lucrative route where the percentage of paid business class tickets is higher.

Legitimate question for sure. However with the number of 787s coming to AA over the next few years there won't be a shortage of widebody aircraft to deploy elsewhere. I don't see CLT losing those easy to fill summer routes and it makes more sense to drop a few extra business class seats for people to burn miles (or SWUs) on than it is to base a second fleet type (or rotate it in from another base) just to get the exact optimal number of premium seats.

4 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

Given the way the pandemic changed international travel, I wouldn't be surprised if AA internally changed their minds in the way they were going to utilize the A321XLR. Realistically the only new markets I see for CLT are probably to secondary Germany cities, namely Stuttgart, Hamburg, or Dusseldorf. 

I agree with you here, but even those might be a stretch given how thoroughly international travel has been decimated. Hopefully demand is as pent up for overseas trips as it is for domestic travel and we see a similar snap back once vaccinations roll out more broadly around the world. There's a lot of cool secondary tourist destinations that could be opened up with the XLR if the demand was there.

[BarrenLucidity]

30 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

AA is receiving 50 A321XLRs between 2023-2025 and has a proposed range of 4500nmi putting most of Europe within range of Charlotte. 

No one is questioning the return of DUB/MAD/MUC. All are scheduled to return this year. Barcelona is not a Oneworld hub. Iberia does not offer onward connections from BCN except for two or three Spanish domestic cities. Barcelona's traffic from the US is heavily dependent on the cruise market and who knows when that will return. 

Frankly Raja's comments in this article (https://airlineweekly.com/2021/05/american-plans-a-smaller-more-profitable-international-network-post-pandemic/) make me think we may even see more European routes cut in favor of increased reliance on JV partners. 

It's easy to fill seats in the summer to Rome and Paris from just about any hub in the US. It's not the seat capacity that would potentially be a problem at CLT. You mentioned it yourself; it's the higher ratio of premium seats compared to the A330 that could be an issue. There are 9 more business class seats (37)  on the 777 than the A333 (28) in addition to a 24-seat Premium Economy cabin that the A333 lacked. The 777 has a whopping 17 more Business seats than the A332 (20) and 3 more Premium Economy seats. 

The question is whether AA would want to use such aircraft on CLT-FCO where the majority of Business seats will likely be filled with upgrades/non-revenue passengers or use the aircraft on a more lucrative route where the percentage of paid business class tickets is higher. 

Given the way the pandemic changed international travel, I wouldn't be surprised if AA internally changed their minds in the way they were going to utilize the A321XLR. Realistically the only new markets I see for CLT are probably to secondary Germany cities, namely Stuttgart, Hamburg, or Dusseldorf. 

I have serious doubts on them leveraging the A321XLRs from CLT for international flights. They could have placed 752 here and opted not to, I think you will see them in BOS and DCA to smaller markets in EU if they plan on them being international at all. Of course they could but I would bet on them upgaging 319 markets to older 321s and moving the XLRs to use for South America, transcon, probably Caribbean from West coast. 

Ah, yeah, thinking of MAD, not BCN. 

CLT is a huge hub, will probably be North of 800 daily AA flights, and will have a 4th, 10000 for runway by 2025. International traffic may have shifted but it will recover easily in the next 3-4 years. It will be well positioned but, again, PHL. 

Completely agree on JV but AA has a decent 7X7 fleet with plenty on order still. They'll do something with that fleet and it won't all be DFW, PHL, MIA, SEA, LAX. CLT will see more connecting to fill those seats. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by BarrenLucidity

[LKN704]

3 hours ago, BarrenLucidity said:

I have serious doubts on them leveraging the A321XLRs from CLT for international flights. They could have placed 752 here and opted not to, I think you will see them in BOS and DCA to smaller markets in EU if they plan on them being international at all. Of course they could but I would bet on them upgaging 319 markets to older 321s and moving the XLRs to use for South America, transcon, probably Caribbean from West coast. 

The 757s range was limited ex Charlotte, especially on Westbound sectors in the Winter months. 757s would frequently struggle in the Winter months from Germany to NYC (the longest transatlantic segment flown with the type was Berlin to Newark IIRC, a distance of 3458nmi) and would often have to make a tech stop for fuel. Germany-NYC is roughly 200 mmi less than Charlotte to Paris. The British Isles are technically the limit of the plane's range from Charlotte. Not only that, but the 757s lacked an internationally competitive product and really had no place flying overseas, hence why AA put the type on marginal routes where product did not matter. The A321XLR will have an international interior and will have all-aisle access business class with flat bed seating and Premium Economy, in addition to standard main cabin seating. 

AA (or any carrier for that matter) cannot legally do any DCA-Europe flight due to DCA perimeter restrictions. In addition, DCA does not have full-fledged FIS facilities to accept inbound international flights from destinations without pre-clearance. 

Caribbean-West Coast has been attempted multiple times by many carriers and has failed each time. It's telling that no airline is flying any route now, especially with the Caribbean being wide open for travel at present. AA tried both Phoenix and LA to Montego Bay, AA did LAX-SJU, as did a number of other carriers in the past. I believe Air Jamaica also served PHX and LAX at one point. People from the West Coast overwhelmingly prefer Hawaii/Mexico/Central America over the Caribbean. 

AA also has a decently sized A321neo fleet (with 40 or so more on order) equipped with a domestic cabin that has a very capable range (3200nmi IIRC ) and can easily do all of the segments you described above. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by LKN704

[KJHburg]

Airport traffic bouncing back now highest level since the pandemic began.

""The latest figures from airport officials show that the number of travelers flying through Charlotte Douglas jumped to about 3.2 million in March — up 39.4% from the same month a year prior, when the nation started feeling the widespread impact of Covid-19. CLT had been coming off another record-setting year in 2019 in which its passenger count eclipsed 50 million, but traffic dipped to about 2.3 million people in March 2020 — nearly cut in half from the year before.  The 3.2 million or so people that either boarded or departed a plane at the Charlotte airport this past March also soared above the 2.1 million reported passengers in February. Month over month, passenger traffic was up 52.2%, according to the data in CLT's Airline and Cargo Activity Summary report. ""

Charlotte airport sees passenger traffic climb to highest level since start of pandemic - Charlotte Business Journal (bizjournals.com)

• March 2021 — 3,226,748
• February — 2,119,966
• January — 2,131,026
• December — 2,327,488
• November — 2,288,971
• October — 2,768,190
• September — 2,358,775
• August — 2,115,261
• July — 1,994,457
• June — 1,568,426
• May — 1,000,522
• April — 340,265
• March 2020 — 2,315,652

Edited May 14, 2021 by KJHburg

[gman430]

Delta wants a piece of the pie in Charlotte: https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-new-routes-ny-boston/ Service to Boston with Delta starts on October 4th. Three times daily.

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by gman430

[LKN704]

14 minutes ago, gman430 said:

Delta wants a piece of the pie in Charlotte: https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-new-routes-ny-boston/ Service to Boston with Delta starts on October 4th. Three times daily.

 

All must be well and the world must be getting back to normal. 
 

Honestly this has more to do with Boston rather than Charlotte and DL simply reacting to AA’s expansion there. I’d expect AA to react very defensively here and only give Delta maybe 6 months or so on the route. Then again I suppose Charlotte is an important enough market that DL needs to have if they want to be big in Boston. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by LKN704

[KJHburg]

about the Queen Charlotte statue at the airport.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1395025998937198599

 

[LKN704]

I know Ray Kaskey (the original sculptor) is apparently upset that the sculpture will be moving inside (as it was apparently designed for outdoor display only) but I am quite glad it will be moving inside. It's such a beautiful piece with an actual story (the reason Queen Charlotte is slanted is because she is being "blown away" by the thrust of a jet engine) and it wasn't quite visible to the flying public in its previous location in front of the terminal roadway. 

Now everyone who uses the landside terminal area will get a chance to view the statue. I only wish there was another elegant sculpture or art display in the atrium for connecting passengers to see. 

CLT (like most other airports worldwide) has really put an increased emphasis on public arts and I am really glad what they have accomplished so far, and what they have announced for the future. I wish now they can just jazz up the terminal roadway, like IAH does with their "flag poles" or LAX does with their multicolored LED pylons. 

[tozmervo]

3 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

CLT (like most other airports worldwide) has really put an increased emphasis on public arts and I am really glad what they have accomplished so far, and what they have announced for the future. I wish now they can just jazz up the terminal roadway, like IAH does with their "flag poles" or LAX does with their multicolored LED pylons. 

As a city agency, I'm pretty sure they are required to spend 1% of their construction budget on public art 

[Miesian Corners]

On 5/13/2021 at 9:26 PM, BarrenLucidity said:

I have serious doubts on them leveraging the A321XLRs from CLT for international flights. They could have placed 752 here and opted not to, I think you will see them in BOS and DCA to smaller markets in EU if they plan on them being international at all. Of course they could but I would bet on them upgaging 319 markets to older 321s and moving the XLRs to use for South America, transcon, probably Caribbean from West coast. 

Ah, yeah, thinking of MAD, not BCN. 

CLT is a huge hub, will probably be North of 800 daily AA flights, and will have a 4th, 10000 for runway by 2025. International traffic may have shifted but it will recover easily in the next 3-4 years. It will be well positioned but, again, PHL. 

Completely agree on JV but AA has a decent 7X7 fleet with plenty on order still. They'll do something with that fleet and it won't all be DFW, PHL, MIA, SEA, LAX. CLT will see more connecting to fill those seats. 

The entire reason AA is buying the XLR is to fly them to lower yield European and South American markets. Vasu Raja, AA's CRO said as much the day the order was placed: 

Small cities in Europe, think routes that we could’ve flown in a 757 but this airplane has 25% lower unit cost than that.. secondary cities in Spain and France where we have a ton of network strength with the joint venture.

And there’s also a number of markets in Germany where today people fly into the southeast or into Florida but they have to double connect or they have to fly to another hub and drive and that can be optimally served out of a place like Charlotte. (Comments to employees, June 21, 2019)

[CltFlyer]

Another update on the terminal expansion.  Obviously still years away, but the exterior is quickly rising!

 

 

[KJHburg]

American Airlines training center leaving for Fort Worth.

American Airlines Flight Training Center leaving Charlotte for Fort Worth – FOX 46 Charlotte

[Blue_Devil]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

American Airlines training center leaving for Fort Worth.

American Airlines Flight Training Center leaving Charlotte for Fort Worth – FOX 46 Charlotte

That is not ideal

[LKN704]

I could be wrong but the training center was entirely devoted to Airbus aircraft, especially the A330s which are now retired. 
Given the increased 737 flying that Charlotte is now seeing it probably just makes sense for logistical reasons to have all training done from one location. 

[xapostrophe]

2 hours ago, LKN704 said:

I could be wrong but the training center was entirely devoted to Airbus aircraft, especially the A330s which are now retired. 
Given the increased 737 flying that Charlotte is now seeing it probably just makes sense for logistical reasons to have all training done from one location. 

It was 330/320/190/767/757/crj/dash 8.

Bt the crj And 190 sims still run a ton.  320 has scaled back a lot. Mostly in Dallas now

[LKN704]

4 hours ago, xapostrophe said:

It was 330/320/190/767/757/crj/dash 8.

Bt the crj And 190 sims still run a ton.  320 has scaled back a lot. Mostly in Dallas now

Makes sense given the Dash/757s/767s/A330s were all retired. 

Does the 190 have the same type rating as the rest of the E-jet fleet? I thought AA retired all 190s by now.

[xapostrophe]

15 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Makes sense given the Dash/757s/767s/A330s were all retired. 

Does the 190 have the same type rating as the rest of the E-jet fleet? I thought AA retired all 190s by now.

The 190/170/175 are a common type. And with crj 2/7/900.

[KJHburg]

Video from Charlotte Ledger about construction project at CLT and the terminal expansion.

The Charlotte Ledger: What's Going on at the Airport? - YouTube

 

[CltFlyer]

Some good news from our only currently operating international carrier, Volaris.

They have had added a 3rd weekly frequency to the schedule (up from 2 weekly since initiation).  The flight will operate on Mondays (giving them Flights on Monday/Wednesday/Sunday).  The additional flight will operate with an Airbus A319 aircraft.  

The scheduling of it is incredibly (and oddly) sporadic.  With it currently being in the schedule only during July 2021, November 2021, April 2022, and September 2022.

No links, but the 3rd flight is bookable on the Volaris website.

it could be the result of the FAA downgrading Mexico's aviation safety rating (meaning no code shares with Frontier for Volaris).  

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2021-05-25/faa-downgrades-mexicos-safety-rating-category-2

Edited May 26, 2021 by CltFlyer

[CltFlyer]

It does appear that most Volaris US destinations are seeing additional frequencies with the A319 plane type.  Volaris only has 4 of the plane type.

It likely does have something to do with the down grading mentioned above.  Hopefully something comes to fruition though.

[LKN704]

I'm wondering how much the introduction of the AA and Volaris flight stimulated O&D traffic on the route.

A couple of years ago CLT-GDL had a smaller PDEW (per daily each way) passenger count than nearly every major city in the world from Charlotte; Ho Chi Minh City's annual passenger traffic from Charlotte was higher, for example.

Edited May 27, 2021 by LKN704

[CltFlyer]

7 hours ago, LKN704 said:

I'm wondering how much the introduction of the AA and Volaris flight stimulated O&D traffic on the route.

A couple of years ago CLT-GDL had a smaller PDEW (per daily each way) passenger count than nearly every major city in the world from Charlotte; Ho Chi Minh City's annual passenger traffic from Charlotte was higher, for example.

I read a article back when they first announced the route.  The article stated that their business model is aimed at areas where they have potential to convert demand that is currently utilizing bus trips to Mexico.  By giving them an affordable option that is on a Mexican carrier (catering to the Spanish language, etc..), they are able to grow demand.  

They are going on 3 years of a service at CLT.  They have continued to fend off a pesky AA (who has resorted to nearly matching Volaris' schedule).  AA's presence has probably slightly diminished the potential to grow the route, but aside for some brief periods, they have maintained 2 weekly flights.  

The 3rd weekly flight (and added capacity across the board) is probably more indicative of the fact that Volaris is unsure of how long the aforementioned down grade will last,  given that the downgrade to category 2 does prohibit them from adding frequency going forward.  I would like to believe, however, that the added frequency does show that they see potential for more consistent increased frequencies to CLT going forward.  

For what it's worth, early bookings (going off the seat map on the Volaris website) for the month's of June and July look promising.