Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[CltFlyer]

1 hour ago, LKN704 said:

Hmm. 

I can't remember if there is a revenue guarantee or corporate contract tied to this route. I remember years ago GSK had a contract with AA that guaranteed a certain number of purchased Business class seats per flight regardless of whether the seats ended up being filled by GSK staff. Unsure if the agreement is still in place today, but that agreement IIRC made the RDU-LHR segment one of the most profitable routes in the AA system. 

If GSK (or any other company) has a contract with AA for RDU-LHR, it probably won't return until companies commit to resuming transatlantic business travel. Could be later this year...might not be until 2022 when businesses reset their corporate travel expense. 

I think I remember reading that there is no longer a revenue guarantee tied to the route.  I believe that from a business class prospective pre-covid.  Business O&D from RDU to LHR is stronger than that of CLT to LHR.  

I doubt they would bring this route back in the winter season (traditionally a very weak travel demand season for Europe) unless business demand rapidly improves.  If I had to guess,  I'd say RDU-LHR will resume in Spring/Summer 2022.

Edited June 30, 2021 by CltFlyer

[CltFlyer]

Some more potentially good aviation news.  Air Canada has updated their September and October schedule, and it appears that they are currently looking to return to CLT in September.

The schedule is showing 1 daily CRJ-200 (we were seeing 2x Embraer E175s during good times pre-pandemic.  Regardless, very good to see CLT is a priority for their return.   Canadian travel demand has been hit especially hard due the pandemic and Canada's more restrictive policies.  

They are planning a return to Charlotte before returning to cities such as Austin, New Orleans, Nashville, Memphis, Kansas City, Milwaukee, St Louis, Indianapolis, and Baltimore. 

CLT isn't there strongest market, but this is a good sign that it certainly isn't one of their weakest.

This means that all of our pre-pandemic airlines will be back except for the business charter airline Ultimate Air Shuttle (whose website says "returning soon", but who knows how long that will be).

 

Edit- This goes without saying due to Covid.  I would still consider this very tentative with the Covid situation, but it is certainly very good news.  

Edited July 1, 2021 by CltFlyer

[KJHburg]

This is about the 2000 acres or so the CLT airport owns that it needs to develop with non airport uses (anything but residential) and the land was purchased over the years for noise abatement.

Charlotte Douglas International Airport ready for major real estate play - Charlotte Business Journal (bizjournals.com)

""Charlotte Douglas International Airport spent years buying nearby homes and property to minimize airplane noise in the path of one of the nation’s busiest airports. Now, airport executives are making that property a priority for development.  Newly appointed aviation director Haley Gentry told CBJ that finding the best fit for the land — 2,000 acres mostly to the north and south of the airport — ranks high on her to-do list. The entire airport property encompasses 6,000 acres.  This week, Jack Christine, the airport’s chief operating officer, noted that the Federal Aviation Administration requires airports to dispose or make use of land acquired as part of noise abatement purchases.   “So that it can be developed in a compatible way with the airport,” Christine told CBJ. “And that’s really the crux of what that’s all about.”  The airport’s economic development department is providing guidance on how best to sell and use the land, Christine added.  Possible uses include businesses aligned with aviation, manufacturing and distribution, various amenities such as hotels, restaurants, shopping and education, and professional services including finance and insurance.  Christine said the airport will sell some of the land and lease other tracts, depending on terms. Any land sold by the city-owned airport would go back on the tax rolls.""

Amazon's huge warehouse at 85/485 SE quadrant is on formerly CLT owned land.  

[LKN704]

It would be nice to land a mid-tier to upmarket hotel (Marriott, Hilton, Westin, Hyatt, or Hyatt Regency etc) directly on airport property. Old planning documents called for a hotel to be built where the old control tower sits. 

CLT is probably the busiest airport in the US without an on-site hotel. 

[HopHead]

9 hours ago, LKN704 said:

It would be nice to land a mid-tier to upmarket hotel (Marriott, Hilton, Westin, Hyatt, or Hyatt Regency etc) directly on airport property. Old planning documents called for a hotel to be built where the old control tower sits. 

CLT is probably the busiest airport in the US without an on-site hotel. 

Yea, I second this as well... Working in IT Consulting for years with a geographically dispersed team, one thing we often did was have team or sometimes organizational meetings in cities with an onsite airport hotel. It was easy to fly into a city, walk off your plane and head over to hotel that was right there. And this is a very common practice for many different companies because it was easy. Didn't have to worry about people getting rental cars or an Uber to ride into a city. Restaurants are usually pretty good at a Hyatt Regency, full service Marriott, etc. so you didn't have to go offsite for meals either. And then there is always the target audience of people that miss their flights due to weather, delays, etc. so it's an easy place for them to stay or the flight crew too. Hopefully this comes to fruition with the news that CLT is ready to develop/sell the land. 

[videtur quam contuor]

The language used in this statement is so biased; property purchased for "noise abatement". The noise is the same or louder. The complaints are abated since the property owners have sold and moved to another, quieter location.

[kermit]

53 minutes ago, tarhoosier said:

The language used in this statement is so biased; property purchased for "noise abatement". The noise is the same or louder. The complaints are abated since the property owners have sold and moved to another, quieter location.

“If a tree falls in an airport…”

[KJHburg]

Welcome back Lufthansa!  Today at CLT airport. from CLT Twitter

Willkommen back and Guten tag,   @Lufthansa_USA  ! Service between #CLTairport and  @MUC_Airport  is back after 14 months. Thanks  @charlottefire  for the water cannon salute! 

[Bikeguy]

deleted

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by Bikeguy
deleted

[SpiritOf76]

Guessing this is Some old signage at the airport 

[CltFlyer]

Not News Related, but I was digging through google today and found some interesting articles on the history of international flag carriers at CLT.  

For those who didn't know.  In the 1990-1992 time frame Lufthansa flew a 747-200 Frankfurt-Charlotte-Houston-Charlotte-Frankfurt a video of which can be found on Youtube.

 

 

These flights were part of an incentive to attract and grow foreign flag carriers in US markets.

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1990/06/19/Lufthansa-to-fly-between-Frankfurt-and-Charlotte-NC/2847645768000/

These flights were ultimately doomed by pricing differences between West Germany and the United.  With the West German's requiring tariffs and the US having a more liberal pricing policy.  

This led to US Air starting Frankfurt flights with an intro fare of an incredibly low (even for the time) $298 RT.  Originally contingent on LH losing its contract (that had to be continually extended) to serve Charlotte, US Air eventually decided to fly the flights along side Lufthansa.  I can't find an exact end date, but I believe the Lufthansa flights ended sometime in 1992.  

https://www.joc.com/sen-helms-phone-call-saved-charlotte-franfurt-air-link_19920224.html

https://www.goupstate.com/article/NC/19910731/News/605196142/SJ

It's interesting to read that Jerry Orr and CLT were also in talks with Alitalia and Swissair at various points attempting to attract service to Rome and Zurich respectively.

************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

 

CLT was only without an European flag carrier for less than 2 years how ever.  As the British Airways and US Air Alliance kicked off in 1993 (which Charlotte beginning in January 1994.

 

 

An interesting part of the alliance/agreement was that flights were originally flown in US Air leased 767-200s.  They were painted in British Airways colors and flown by US Air crews in British Airways uniforms.  

https://pointmetotheplane.boardingarea.com/us-airways-british-airways-global-alliance-back-to-the-future/

Eventually these flights transitioned to proper British Airways 777-200s to London Gatwick.  In 2001 BA consolidated their Baltimore and Charlotte flights to one flight with to London Heathrow (via Baltimore) with a 767-300ER  before ending the Charlotte leg altogether in October 2002.  The discontinuation was reportedly related to the economic downturn caused by 9/11.  

I don't like posting links from other message boards, but these are the best factual links I can find in regards to the BA flights being terminated.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=111871  (Consolidation of CLT and BWI flights)

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=169679  (Termination altogether)

Here's a more legitimate link.

https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Airline-News/BA-to-halt-Charlotte-London-service-Oct-27

*****************************************************************************************************************************************************

 

This brings us to modern day.  Once again Charlotte was not for long without a foreign carrier.  In March 2004,  Lufthansa launched flights from Charlotte to Munich.  Originally with the help of US Airways and Star Alliance.  The Lufthansa flight now sustains it self quite well.

https://www.bizjournals.com/triad/stories/2003/12/08/daily30.html

Intro fares for these flights were as low as $199!

No need to go in depth here as Lufthansa  to MUC is fairly well covered on this board presently.

*********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

Here's another interesting article I found from 1994 about CLT, RDU, and international flights from each.

https://greensboro.com/charlotte-and-raleigh-increase-their-number-of-international-flights/article_d4d0df35-9d65-5c57-9b4c-1427c6f03171.html

 

I understand that most of the above information is likely already known by most of aviation enthusiasts on this board (my-self included), but I  thought it would be neat to have it all on the same page with links.  I also thought it might be an  interesting read for those not as enthusiastic/knowledgeable with aviation.  Personally, I was unaware of all of the politics behind the original Lufthansa flights and found that to be really interesting.

 

Enjoy!!

 

*all credit for the Youtube Videos goes to Youtuber SDMullis.  He has created these as well as many many other aviation related videos (including some classic CLT themed ones).  For those interested I would recommend his trip report videos of Charlotte- Munich and return on LH in November/December 2019.

[KJHburg]

I flew from CLT to Munich during the first month of them flying here for $200 RT and had a blast in southern Germany.  The German accented reservation agent said everyone was booking CLT to MUC she would dream of it in her sleep! 

I remember all those flights and remember the talk of Alitalia and Jerry Orr was trying everything to get them to come here. 

[CltFlyer]

35 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

I flew from CLT to Munich during the first month of them flying here for $200 RT and had a blast in southern Germany.  The German accented reservation agent said everyone was booking CLT to MUC she would dream of it in her sleep! 

I remember all those flights and remember the talk of Alitalia and Jerry Orr was trying everything to get them to come here. 

I'd argue that no one in commercial aviation has done more to help  a single airport (and indirectly the city it serves) than Jerry Orr has with CLT.  CLT would not be where it is today without his guidance.  I imagine the airport will name something after him in the coming years.  The "Jerry Orr Terminal Lobby" has a nice ring to it.

Here is an article on the history of Jerry Orr and CLT.

https://charlotteledger.substack.com/p/its-time-to-honor-jerry-orr

Edited July 6, 2021 by CltFlyer

[LKN704]

I used to love seeing those colorful British Airways “Utopian” images on their planes and throughout their branding onboard and at the airport from when they tried to become a “global airline” rather than just being a “British” one. IIRC it caused quite a controversy in the UK with some politicians getting involved. I wonder if the branding/livery might have had more success now. 

IIRC the BA service did horrible once the US alliance was dropped and US started their own competing service. I seem to recall one of the reasons that the flight lasted as long as it did was because a BA exec at the time had a child that lived in Charlotte. 

[Miesian Corners]

On 7/5/2021 at 8:12 PM, CltFlyer said:

I'd argue that no one in commercial aviation has done more to help  a single airport (and indirectly the city it serves) than Jerry Orr has with CLT.  CLT would not be where it is today without his guidance.  I imagine the airport will name something after him in the coming years.  The "Jerry Orr Terminal Lobby" has a nice ring to it.

Here is an article on the history of Jerry Orr and CLT.

https://charlotteledger.substack.com/p/its-time-to-honor-jerry-orr

I hope that never happens (naming). He made a deal with the devil during the General Assembly's attempt at stealing the airport from the City of Charlotte (his employer). 

[nicholas]

4 hours ago, Miesian Corners said:

I hope that never happens (naming). He made a deal with the devil during the General Assembly's attempt at stealing the airport from the City of Charlotte (his employer). 

What's the backstory behind this?

[videtur quam contuor]

https://www.charlottemagazine.com/jerry-orr-is-chuck-norris/

Jerry acted as if the airport was HIS airport. He worked behind the scenes with the republicans in the assembly (my opinion) to support the law that transferred the airport to a new State controlled authority. Same happened for Asheville Water Authority (later ruled unconstitutional) and other places that were uppity cities. The new authority board of reliable Republicans  asked him to be the director and the city fired him since he was now "working" for another entity.  The new authority required federal approval for administrative supervision from the Federal Aviation Authority which was under Anthony Foxx, former Democratic mayor of Charlotte and at that time in the Obama administration as Secretary of Transportation. The FAA did nothing. No action. Neither approval nor rejection. After some period of time the new state authority abandoned its remit since they had nothing to administer. Jerry Orr retired with no other options to pursue. 

I had a friend who worked for the airport as head of grounds (keeping) and said Jerry micromanaged his work much as everything at the airport.

Edited July 10, 2021 by tarhoosier

[LKN704]

The airport was a dump under Orr. 

It was Orr who started the restroom attendant tipping policy and frankly during his regime the airport terminal interior just looked so dilapidated and sad. Obviously I'll give credit when credit is due as he was the director when the city opened the E Concourse (which was extremely state of the art at the time compared to other regional concourses) and when the city expanded the D Concourse. 

As we have seen with post-Orr directors, you can still make improvements and keep costs low for airlines. 

[kermit]

According to the Porter Airlines booking engine they will start CLT-YTZ (Toronto Island Airport) service on September 17. YTZ only allows prop aircraft (due to NIMBY’s) so the flights will be on  Dash-8’s. [EDIT: nope, my bad. The flights are  JetBlue to Boston and change there for YTZ -- see following post]

https://www.flyporter.com/en-ca/about-porter/porter-and-embraer

The flights will longer than AA or AC flights, but the airport is a very short tunnel-walk (or ferry ride) into central Toronto at the foot of Bathurst st, the tram stop is one block from the tunnel/ferry. It is one of the most relaxing airport experiences I have had. If pricing is in the same ballpark as AA this will be my first choice route to Toronto. However, there was no pre-clearance at YTZ when I last flew from there (but that was 2016 I think) so I guess we will soon see prop aircraft on concourse D.

The press page discusses Porter’s acquisition of some Ebraer jets which they will use from Pearson, Ottawa, Halifax and Montreal.

EDIT: Damn, I am super disappointed. The Dash-8s could make it to Charlotte, they did / do have Myrtle Beach and Charleston flights using them (but, yea. I am sure there are a ton more Torontonians wanting to go to Myrtle than to Charlotte).

Edited July 12, 2021 by kermit

[atlrvr]

It's JetBlue to CLT-Boston, transferring to a Dash-8 best I can tell for service to Toronto.

CLT is mentioned a possible destination for their new E195's once they arrive next year, but non-stop to Charlotte would be to one of four other airports (Toronto Pearson, which is the main airport, Montreal, Ottawa or Halifax)

[kermit]

2 minutes ago, atlrvr said:

It's JetBlue to CLT-Boston, transferring to a Dash-8 best I can tell for service to Toronto.

CLT is mentioned a possible destination for their new E195's once they arrive next year, but non-stop to Charlotte would be to one of four other airports (Toronto Pearson, which is the main airport, Montreal, Ottawa or Halifax)

Damn. That sucks.

[csweet]

 

7 minutes ago, atlrvr said:

It's JetBlue to CLT-Boston, transferring to a Dash-8 best I can tell for service to Toronto.

CLT is mentioned a possible destination for their new E195's once they arrive next year, but non-stop to Charlotte would be to one of four other airports (Toronto Pearson, which is the main airport, Montreal, Ottawa or Halifax)

As a Canadian I hope they add all 4, but NE hubs can barely support service to Ottawa and Halifax. Added competition to Toronto would be great for CLT. Hopefully AA keeps mainline on those YUL & YYZ flights.

[LKN704]

I took AA adding mainline to CLT-YYZ as a competitive measure against AC up-gauging their CLT service more than anything. Likewise I believe the mainline add to Montreal (which was supposed to happen pre-COVID anyways) was likely to keep AC off the route, who publicly said they have desire to serve CLT-YUL in the future (they basically said they only had the resources to serve either CLT-YUL or RDU-YUL and chose RDU as it lacked service). 

Even though AC is supposed to resume CLT service with a CRJ, I am willing to bet it either gets up-gauged fairly quickly or the CRJ is a placeholder. AC is essentially retiring most CRJs off their transborder network, with the exception of some smaller cities. 

AC has a long history in Charlotte at this point, and for a while before 9/11 served the CLT-YYZ route with A319s. 
 

Edit: It’s interesting though also strange that they list CLT as a future destination. Airlines don’t usually make such type of announcements, especially given how they just placed the order for the planes today. 

Porter is a fantastic little airline. Great service-they offer free beer and wine in real glassware. They attempted to expand out of Toronto City Airport with larger aircraft but the Federal government wouldn’t allow the airports expand. It’s fun going to the Harbour in Toronto and watch all the planes at the island airport land. 
 

https://www.flyporter.com/en-us/about-porter/porter-and-embraer

Wonder if they want to maybe tie-up with AA. AA had a partnership with Canadian Airlines (which was acquired by AC) and tried to partner with Westjet before they themselves tied-up with Delta. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by LKN704

[videtur quam contuor]

For CLT-YUL I have several times instead  taken the flight (with a connection) to BTV Burlington Vermont. Domestic flight so no international foolishness, no long airport delays for screening and BTV is larger than it seems is necessary during most of the year because it is built for ski season. Then rent a car in five minutes and drive north for two hours with a quick border crossing as tourists. Even with the connection time I still arrive downtown Montreal near the same time as non-stop to YUL and then the customs/immigration lines and car lines or taxi into town. The cost of parking the car is a price for the convenience though it gives some flexibility to drive about the region if needed. Drive to Burlington a day ahead for return and enjoy a great city, convenient restaurant district and then car to airport and home. 

[CltFlyer]

There is speculation that the Porter announcement may just be a play to try and attract a potential suitor for acquisition.  This is a very ambitious growth plan.  As mentioned before, however, they would be great for competition.  Especially for Canadian markets which are notoriously high priced due to high taxes.  

 

3 hours ago, LKN704 said:

I took AA adding mainline to CLT-YYZ as a competitive measure against AC up-gauging their CLT service more than anything. Likewise I believe the mainline add to Montreal (which was supposed to happen pre-COVID anyways) was likely to keep AC off the route, who publicly said they have desire to serve CLT-YUL in the future (they basically said they only had the resources to serve either CLT-YUL or RDU-YUL and chose RDU as it lacked service). 
 

That's the way I interpreted these aircraft up gauges as well.  Having said that, however,  I still think CLT could still be a viable market out of YUL for AC once demand recovers.  AC and AA are trying to tackle very different Canadian markets.  AC is geared towards smaller market Canadian and more prominently international connections.  Whereas AA is geared towards Canada-Florida demand.   I think both AA (with mainline) and AC could survive.  

AC has very unique TATL portfolio from YUL compared to YYZ.  Including secondary France and northern Africa.  

Edited July 12, 2021 by CltFlyer