Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[midtownclt]

A-terminal needs its own drop/off check-in, etc when complete.  I hope there was planning for enough room to do this. 

If not that will be a shame.

Many airports have multiple drop-off and check-in points even if all serviced by the same road. 

I love the expansion of lanes at the existing airport but the length for drop off is not nearly as long as it needs to be.

It is no longer than before  (just wider) and now you have to navigate through several more lanes and therefore it gets very congested. 

Maybe when the expansion is completed things will be better if they add more traffic islands.

[LKN704]

I had to do some digging, but the document (which I have posted before and isn't really anything new) dates from 2016 so I am not sure how accurate it is. 

Two alternatives were developed for the OAL Terminal, located within Concourse A North. The first alternative is a single level terminal facility and drop-off curb with an elevated concourse level. The second alternative is dual level facility, complete with dedicated ticketing and baggage claim levels and drop-off curbs. The single level OAL Terminal was initially developed to reduce construction costs. However, it was later determined that the dual level facility delivered a better overall value for the additional cost. The single level facility was estimated at $842 Million while the dual level facility was estimated at $937 Million in total construction costs.

The single level terminal facility incorporates both ticketing and baggage claim on the same floor, as shown in Exhibit 7-44, Single Level Holdroom and Gates. The passenger drop-off curb for arrivals and departures is split lengthwise between ticketing and baggage claim. Passengers escalate up to the gate level for concession, holdrooms, and departure gates, shown in Exhibit 7-45, Single Level Ticketing and Baggage Claim.

The dual-level terminal facility maintains dedicated departures and arrivals levels with drop-off curbs. The departure level allows access to holdrooms and gates without level changes, as shown in Exhibit 7-46, Dual Level Ticketing. Passengers escalate down from the departures level into baggage claim to exit from the arrivals curb, as shown in Exhibit 7-47, Dual Level Baggage Claim. The dual-level terminal facility was selected as the preferred configuration due to the added functionality, capacity, and overall value.

[BarrenLucidity]

1 hour ago, LKN704 said:

I had to do some digging, but the document (which I have posted before and isn't really anything new) dates from 2016 so I am not sure how accurate it is. 

Two alternatives were developed for the OAL Terminal, located within Concourse A North. The first alternative is a single level terminal facility and drop-off curb with an elevated concourse level. The second alternative is dual level facility, complete with dedicated ticketing and baggage claim levels and drop-off curbs. The single level OAL Terminal was initially developed to reduce construction costs. However, it was later determined that the dual level facility delivered a better overall value for the additional cost. The single level facility was estimated at $842 Million while the dual level facility was estimated at $937 Million in total construction costs.

The single level terminal facility incorporates both ticketing and baggage claim on the same floor, as shown in Exhibit 7-44, Single Level Holdroom and Gates. The passenger drop-off curb for arrivals and departures is split lengthwise between ticketing and baggage claim. Passengers escalate up to the gate level for concession, holdrooms, and departure gates, shown in Exhibit 7-45, Single Level Ticketing and Baggage Claim.

The dual-level terminal facility maintains dedicated departures and arrivals levels with drop-off curbs. The departure level allows access to holdrooms and gates without level changes, as shown in Exhibit 7-46, Dual Level Ticketing. Passengers escalate down from the departures level into baggage claim to exit from the arrivals curb, as shown in Exhibit 7-47, Dual Level Baggage Claim. The dual-level terminal facility was selected as the preferred configuration due to the added functionality, capacity, and overall value.

This is still accurate, at least there's been nothing to the contrary produced. A North will be a viable expansion for Delta, United, Spirit, Frontier, Air Canada, and Southwest. I bet Jet Blue sneaks a few games too with their Northeast alliance. 

[LKN704]

56 minutes ago, BarrenLucidity said:

This is still accurate, at least there's been nothing to the contrary produced. A North will be a viable expansion for Delta, United, Spirit, Frontier, Air Canada, and Southwest. I bet Jet Blue sneaks a few games too with their Northeast alliance. 

It isn't accurate, as the OAL terminal is no longer in the master plan for the airport nor was it in the Draft EA for Capacity Improvement that the city is working on and is due to be published and submitted to the FAA early next year. The only terminal expansion projects in the Draft EA are:

-B and C Concourse Expansion (construction of "stingers" at the end of each concourse, with 22 and 13 gates respectively)

-Construction of a sterile corridor between Concourse C and D that will allow several C Gates to be used for international arrivals

-Construction of a ~4000 foot bored tunnel from the Main Terminal under the apron between B/C to "future-proof" the area to allow for an APM to be built in the future in the event a satellite terminal is constructed

There was a public meeting yesterday that occurred (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HDjKQ41BXA) that discussed how the airport is moving away from their proposed Alternative (#1) to their secondary alternative (#2) to comply with new FAA regulations regarding operations on parallel runways. Alternative #2 is essentially the same as Alternative #1 except the new parallel center runway is being pushed several hundred feet to the East. At the 41:00 mark the presenter discusses the rationale for decreasing the runway length from 12k to 10k. She references the 2016 Capacity Improvement document (which is where the OAL terminal blueprint I pasted is sourced from) which originally called for the 12k runway. 

 

[LKN704]

Service to El Paso, Sioux Falls, and Ontario have all been cut for the winter. El Paso and Ontario both have a resumption date of April 5th, while Sioux Falls does not. Service to Portland, OR is also somewhat cut for the winter, with flights being suspended from January 4th to March 3rd.

I can't figure out why CLT-Secondary West cities struggle so much. I understand cutting El Paso and Ontario, but Portland is a large enough city, and CLT is a large enough connecting complex that I would assume the flight could easily work year-round, ditto for CLT lacking nonstop service to San Jose and Albuquerque, but I guess AA feels they can get more profit by connecting east/west traffic over DFW or PHX.

Given that the AA January schedule is now official, I would assume that CLT-HNL service is confirmed to end on January 3rd, with no resumption date planned. To be quite honest, I wouldn't be surprised if it was canned for good. As nice as a nonstop to Honolulu is, Hawaii is extremely low-yielding and there are probably better uses for the plane. A Charlotte-Honolulu round-trip segment essentially ties up an aircraft for 24 hours, and in that same amount of time a plane could do East Coast-Europe round-trip, plus an additional domestic segment. I doubt they were able to get a revenue premium for local traveller anyway. The nonstop was/is often priced $500 more than a similar AA itinerary with a stop in LAX/DFW/PHX. 

[xapostrophe]

6 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Service to El Paso, Sioux Falls, and Ontario have all been cut for the winter. El Paso and Ontario both have a resumption date of April 5th, while Sioux Falls does not. Service to Portland, OR is also somewhat cut for the winter, with flights being suspended from January 4th to March 3rd.

I can't figure out why CLT-Secondary West cities struggle so much. I understand cutting El Paso and Ontario, but Portland is a large enough city, and CLT is a large enough connecting complex that I would assume the flight could easily work year-round, ditto for CLT lacking nonstop service to San Jose and Albuquerque, but I guess AA feels they can get more profit by connecting east/west traffic over DFW or PHX.

Given that the AA January schedule is now official, I would assume that CLT-HNL service is confirmed to end on January 3rd, with no resumption date planned. To be quite honest, I wouldn't be surprised if it was canned for good. As nice as a nonstop to Honolulu is, Hawaii is extremely low-yielding and there are probably better uses for the plane. A Charlotte-Honolulu round-trip segment essentially ties up an aircraft for 24 hours, and in that same amount of time a plane could do East Coast-Europe round-trip, plus an additional domestic segment. I doubt they were able to get a revenue premium for local traveller anyway. The nonstop was/is often priced $500 more than a similar AA itinerary with a stop in LAX/DFW/PHX. 

When US wanted to run it forever ago, they dropped it because it was mostly people redeeming miles from Charlotte... Money loser.

[KJHburg]

Not CLT airport but Concord's airport has another nonstop to Melbourne FL now 9 nonstop destinations all on Allegiant

City of Concord NC > Services > Community > News

 

[CltFlyer]

Updates on the Terminal Lobby Expanion and Concourse E Extension.

 

https://cltairport.mediaroom.com/Destination-CLT-Plans-Big-Milestones

"The new construction on the lobby’s west side will open to passengers in spring/summer 2022, along with the west subterranean walkway – an underground tunnel that will connect the Hourly Deck to the terminal, allowing CLT visitors to bypass roadway traffic. Work on the east subterranean tunnel will begin in 2023 and wrap up in 2025. Charlotte Douglas also is adding two pedestrian overhead walkways that will allow access from level five of the Hourly Parking Deck to the Mezzanine inside the new terminal lobby. "

 

"CLT’s Concourse E Expansion Phase 9 will add 34,00 square feet, hold room space for 10 gates, a Pet Relief Area, Mother’s Room, restrooms and four new concessions (Uptown Exchange, Gameway, PDQ (Chicken), and Sycamore Brewing) on Concourse E’s north end in early 2022."

 

For those curious, Gameway is a gaming lounge with current locations at DFW.   https://www.airportgameway.com/

Gameway is Priority Pass lounge for those familar.

 

[LKN704]

What's less clear is the baggage claim/arrivals level refurbishment project. All of the renderings make it clear the baggage claim area will essentially be rebuilt, but there is no timeline nor is there mention of that area's refurbishment in any airport documents. Does anyone know when that will occur?

[TCLT]

14 hours ago, LKN704 said:

What's less clear is the baggage claim/arrivals level refurbishment project. All of the renderings make it clear the baggage claim area will essentially be rebuilt, but there is no timeline nor is there mention of that area's refurbishment in any airport documents. Does anyone know when that will occur?

Not sure of any documents, but this video breaks the construction into phases and shows the demo and redo of existing checkpoints and baggage claims. Doesn't give a specific timeline, but does indicate when you'd expect to see it happen in relation to other work being done. It's a really long video but is quite detailed.

[LKN704]

54 minutes ago, TCLT said:

Not sure of any documents, but this video breaks the construction into phases and shows the demo and redo of existing checkpoints and baggage claims. Doesn't give a specific timeline, but does indicate when you'd expect to see it happen in relation to other work being done. It's a really long video but is quite detailed.

Yeah-I have seen that video.

I guess I am just confused why the airport/city makes no mention of the baggage claim project in any document/press-release, in that I hope the baggage claim refurbishment wasn't scrapped or postponed to a later date. 

[TCLT]

1 hour ago, LKN704 said:

Yeah-I have seen that video.

I guess I am just confused why the airport/city makes no mention of the baggage claim project in any document/press-release, in that I hope the baggage claim refurbishment wasn't scrapped or postponed to a later date. 

Oh I see. Maybe because the closures and refurbishments are still such a ways off? No need to talk about it when it isn't going to affect passengers for another year plus or however long it takes to get to that phase. I can't imagine a scenario where that's scrapped from the project since the new space wouldn't work without redoing the old parts.

edit: I'll also add that the terminal needs additional capacity badly, including for bags, so there's just no way they'd leave the existing baggage claim layout and systems alone.

Edited November 24, 2021 by TCLT

[allthingsplanes]

To me it looks like the baggage claims start their renovations in phase 4.  If I'm reading this correctly they're just finishing phase 2.  Phase 3 will be the same as phase 2, just the other half.  Passengers won't actually start using the new expanded part of the terminal until Phase 4 or 5.

[LKN704]

Flew into CLT from Dulles on AA on Thanksgiving Day and then back this past Sunday on UA. I purposely flew in on Thanksgiving Day for personal reasons (the less time I had to spend with my parent's neighbors who they invite every year to Thanksgiving Dinner the better) rather than cost, but I was surprised how many people actually fly on Thanksgiving day. One wouldn't know it was a major holiday based on the crowds at both Dulles and CLT. 

Leaving CLT Sunday night was an absolute cluster. The time it took to get from I-85 to just the airport property took a good 15 minutes. I had my ride drop me off in the hourly parking deck (rather than at the terminal curb) so we could avoid the mess the traffic situation was...I've never seen it that busy. Once I reached the arrivals curb to enter the building, I was met by a sea of arriving passengers and it took a good chunk of time just to actually enter the terminal. TSA Precheck was extremely fast though...I was through the line in probably 90 seconds. The Centurion Lounge was standing room only and they ran out of beer and wine while I was there. 

I don't know what it is about airport bathrooms in the US; some are nice and clean (SFO, IAD, SEA) while some are absolute dumps that wouldn't be out of place at a state fair in the middle of a field. The practically brand new bathrooms at the A North Concourse near the United gates were disgusting...orange mold (?) growing on the grout, weird nasty brown smears on the sink washbasin, empty rolls of toilet paper/paper towels just laying on the ground and on the sink. 

On a different note, Allegiant today announced plans to form a joint-venture with Mexican LCC Viva Aerobus, in addition to an equity investment in the company. Allegiant has said they have found 88 suitable US/Mexico markets they would serve within the next several years if the JV is approved, however no Concord-Mexico route was identified (although they plan both SAV and GSP to CUN), likely due to the lack of CBP Facilities at the warehouse they use as a terminal there. I wonder how likely it would be to add a CBP facility at JQF?

[KJHburg]

Traffic is still improving at CLT but still off from its pre pandemic peaks.

Passenger traffic at Charlotte Douglas airport jumps in October, trails pre-pandemic level - Charlotte Business Journal (bizjournals.com)

""About 4.18 million people passed through Charlotte Douglas International Airport in October, ahead of the busy holiday travel season. That's about 5.5% off from pre-pandemic levels. Daily flights at CLT averaged 706 in October, which represented a drop from 780 in the same month two years ago but was up from 527 last year. It also increased from the average of 674 daily flights in September.""

[Miesian Corners]

AA has miffed me again. The C & D Admiral's Club hasn't been remodeled since America West and US Airways merged (and even then it was just some new furniture), not to mention the fact the club is too far from the E gates to use. When I emailed the airline pre-pandemic to enquire about both, I got the same old story that "real estate is difficult to come by at CLT." Fast forward to last week when AA announced it will build a completely new 10,000 square foot club at AUS Bergstrom (as in creating new square footage that doesn't currently exist in the airport).
 

Meanwhile at the airline's second busiest hub, we can't even get Coke machines in the C/D Club (something every other lounge in the network has had for a decade). I'm dumping the membership.

[CltFlyer]

4 hours ago, Miesian Corners said:

AA has miffed me again. The C & D Admiral's Club hasn't been remodeled since America West and US Airways merged (and even then it was just some new furniture), not to mention the fact the club is too far from the E gates to use. When I emailed the airline pre-pandemic to enquire about both, I got the same old story that "real estate is difficult to come by at CLT." Fast forward to last week when AA announced it will build a completely new 10,000 square foot club at AUS Bergstrom (as in creating new square footage that doesn't currently exist in the airport).
 

Meanwhile at the airline's second busiest hub, we can't even get Coke machines in the C/D Club (something every other lounge in the network has had for a decade). I'm dumping the membership.

Funny you should mention this.  There is this rumor (confirmed?) that was a surfaced by very reliable Twitter source for AA info (Jonnyc)

“AA: I think I -did- see this reported somewhere, maybe, a few weeks ago? (really not sure, but it rings a bell,) but I'm hearing main Admiral's Club in Charlotte will be closing for some repairs for a few weeks. Unsure of the timing”

it was followed up by this response from another user

“January 2022.  Exact date of closure still TBD. AA will open a Guest Service Center in the atrium mezzanine for travel assistance + grab and go snack offerings, bottled water and coffee.”

This lines up with a  rumor on here that AA had requested space in the mezzanine for a “3rd lounge”.  This must have been what it was for.

 

 

https://twitter.com/xjonnyc/status/1461336918554198019?s=21

 

[LKN704]

7 hours ago, Miesian Corners said:

AA has miffed me again. The C & D Admiral's Club hasn't been remodeled since America West and US Airways merged (and even then it was just some new furniture), not to mention the fact the club is too far from the E gates to use. When I emailed the airline pre-pandemic to enquire about both, I got the same old story that "real estate is difficult to come by at CLT." Fast forward to last week when AA announced it will build a completely new 10,000 square foot club at AUS Bergstrom (as in creating new square footage that doesn't currently exist in the airport).
 

Meanwhile at the airline's second busiest hub, we can't even get Coke machines in the C/D Club (something every other lounge in the network has had for a decade). I'm dumping the membership.

Indeed...the lounge exudes a 1990s corporate theme with wood paneling and plants everywhere. 

The new Austin lounge will actually be 15,000 square feet in size (AA actually said 15,000+ in their press release, so it might even be larger). To be fair, Austin needed a larger club for a while as it was uncomfortably packed during peak hours, especially with BA using the lounge as well. 

That said, I think it is further evidence of how AA views CLT in that it is a lower-yielding connecting hub. There's essentially no competitive reason for AA to make expensive capital investments in their infrastructure at CLT. It's not like local traffic is going to jump ship to another carrier en masse. Coke machine aside, the fact that CLT was handling multiple intercontinental flights with a Flagship cabin (pre-Covid) and lacked a lounge with shower suites is crazy to me. 

[formerly commoner]

AA takes its CLT O&D customers for granted, just as its predecessors did.  They'll never change out of fear of CLT pax switching airlines; however, the frequency and intensity of my complaints to AA over the past 3 years has been increasing.  I can't imagine I'm alone.  At some point I hope that the small but AA hostage-taken pax contingent's complaints will be troubling enough that they do SOMETHING.  I used to embrace my Stockholm syndrome (rationalizing it through a fear of losing the economic and personal benefit of the routes and TOLs), but I'm over it.  I (and my elementary school kids, for Pete sake) savor the rare Delta flight.  

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

5 hours ago, formerly commoner said:

AA takes its CLT O&D customers for granted, just as its predecessors did.  They'll never change out of fear of CLT pax switching airlines; however, the frequency and intensity of my complaints to AA over the past 3 years has been increasing.  I can't imagine I'm alone.  At some point I hope that the small but AA hostage-taken pax contingent's complaints will be troubling enough that they do SOMETHING.  I used to embrace my Stockholm syndrome (rationalizing it through a fear of losing the economic and personal benefit of the routes and TOLs), but I'm over it.  I (and my elementary school kids, for Pete sake) savor the rare Delta flight.  

I can't wait for future Delta expansion and a SkyClub. It will scare AA enough to make some changes.

[SF2CLT]

5 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

I can't wait for future Delta expansion and a SkyClub. It will scare AA enough to make some changes.

And where exactly do you expect Delta to expand to once the new concourse opens? They will have the same number of gates in the new concourse as they do today…the new concourse isn’t solely a Delta facility.

CLT will never be anything than a decent-sized spoke in the Delta network. They only increased their size here once the merger with Northwest was closed; before the merger, their service was only 7-8 flights a day to Atlanta on MD80s and 3-4 flights a day to Cincinnati on regional jets.  

I can’t see us getting a SkyClub either.  I understand that there was a rendering posted somewhere displaying a club in the new concourse, but it’s unclear whether that rendering received Delta’s blessing, as it was quickly removed. An old buddy of mine used to work in the revenue department for the company (he left immediately before the pandemic) and I asked him about the photo. His response was that he didn’t think Charlotte had the premium traffic to warrant a club, but the company was looking into opening modular “pop-up” clubs at smaller outstations, and he could see Charlotte potentially getting one. This was all pre-pandemic, of course. 

[LKN704]

11 hours ago, formerly commoner said:

AA takes its CLT O&D customers for granted, just as its predecessors did.  They'll never change out of fear of CLT pax switching airlines; however, the frequency and intensity of my complaints to AA over the past 3 years has been increasing.  I can't imagine I'm alone.  At some point I hope that the small but AA hostage-taken pax contingent's complaints will be troubling enough that they do SOMETHING.  I used to embrace my Stockholm syndrome (rationalizing it through a fear of losing the economic and personal benefit of the routes and TOLs), but I'm over it.  I (and my elementary school kids, for Pete sake) savor the rare Delta flight.  

Frankly I believe you will only see systemic change within the airline once Doug Parker leaves...even though his probable successor (Robert Isom) is unlikely to do the company, their employees, or their customers any favors. 

Anything another carrier does at this point in terms of the passenger experience is moot...AA doesn't care-whether on the ground or in the air. We see this in AS and UA resuming hot meal service on domestic flights in first class. We see this in UA announcing they will re-install seatback video domestically. We see this in DL announcing plans for free Wi-Fi for everyone fleet-wide, in addition to upholding their commitment to seatback video. We see this in DL, UA, and AS resuming food for purchase and alcohol sales in the main cabin domestically...one could go on. 

It's sad because they have a great fleet, a great group of hub cities, the iconic AA brand, and a really great people who want to do what they do best, and I say that as an AA shareholder. Sadly poor performance has been a trickle-down effect, and it has been exacerbated due to the pandemic. I have nothing but admiration and respect for frontline workers of every industry and those who work day in and day out dealing with the public...but the performance of some crews in my past travels has had me seriously question my loyalty to the company. From one FA who walked around with his shirt untucked (and boxers hanging out!) with an unwrapped AA blanket around his shoulders who kept commenting "I need my jul" during the flight to his colleagues, to a FA who walked by an elderly passenger and said "I'm ignoring you" after the passenger rang the call button a second time in a 60 minute period to ask for water...it's gotten ridiculous. 

I'm fortunate enough to not live in a city where I am captive to AA. I've been flying UA a lot recently, and they have improved tremendously. Every flight I was thanked by name when boarding the aircraft (and I don't have status!) and every single employee I encountered seemed genuinely happy to be there. They did 3 beverage runs on my IAD-SFO flight the other week, in addition to a coffee service and walking through every 30 minutes or so offering water bottles. What did the crew on AA do in the main cabin on a recent LAX-DCA flight in back? A single beverage service and then hide in the galley with the curtain closed ignoring call bells. 

[Miesian Corners]

I emailed them and got this response:
 

Thanks for your note and your feedback.  I won’t argue with the fact that the CLT C Club is ready for an update, and there is a lot that we have in the works for CLT overall as it relates to the Club experience:

 

• Early next year, we will actually be closing the C Club in order to perform some regulatory updates as well as make cosmetic updates to the restrooms, carpet, paint, and some furnishings
• We are working on a medium term proposal to update the club further, but given the extent of work required, it will likely be a 2023/24 program
• Over the longer term, we are working with the CLT airport to determine a solution that would allow us to expand the Admirals Club footprint significantly, but this will take time as it’s part of a larger terminal redevelopment project

[CltFlyer]

41 minutes ago, Miesian Corners said:

I emailed them and got this response:
 

Thanks for your note and your feedback.  I won’t argue with the fact that the CLT C Club is ready for an update, and there is a lot that we have in the works for CLT overall as it relates to the Club experience:

 

• Early next year, we will actually be closing the C Club in order to perform some regulatory updates as well as make cosmetic updates to the restrooms, carpet, paint, and some furnishings
• We are working on a medium term proposal to update the club further, but given the extent of work required, it will likely be a 2023/24 program
• Over the longer term, we are working with the CLT airport to determine a solution that would allow us to expand the Admirals Club footprint significantly, but this will take time as it’s part of a larger terminal redevelopment project

I believe the C concourse expansion is adding a new FIS corridor as well as widening C.  I wonder if it will be part of this project.

 

Also in Munich news.  Currently in the schedule from now through January.  Lufthansa is operating a 4th weekly flight to Munich.   Flights will now be on Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday.  

AA is restarting Munich daily on 12/16, and still have Frankfurt as coming back permanently on 1/4.  

[LKN704]

I think the space where the club is currently situated will be used by the FIS corridor. There aren't full renderings at this stage, but rather simple descriptions (AFAIK) and floor plans.

From what I recall, the Concourse C project will use the same layout in place at LAX's TBIT, DFW's Terminal D, and PHL's Terminal A: Each gate/gate grouping will have escalators/elevators up  to a new sterile corridor situated on top of the existing concourse. The end of the corridor (situated approximately where the club is currently located) will have a long set of escalators leading directly to the present FIS area. 

I would imagine that the present day Concourse C (or any of the concourses for that matter) was not designed to support an additional level structurally, so I am willing to bet the construction will be quite extensive and intrusive for a number of years.