Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[deleted account]

12 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I think the exterior looks fine. Especially for a regional terminal. The new regional terminal at DCA is pretty much just like this only the Roofs match the respective context design. The interior on the other hand, we'll see.

Charlotte is an extremely extremely cheap airport. Insanely cheap. And its like 90% connecting traffic and dominated by a single airline. You could have a nicer airport, but American could balk and threaten to take it's planes elsewhere. 

 

Yup. Compare CLT landing fees, etc., to some of the more fancy airports (though I don't think AA is ever leaving CLT,  for a lot of reasons). 

7 minutes ago, CltFlyer said:

 

I would suspect the lack in "quality" here is due to the fact that concourse E has a rather limited life span left (10 to 15 years).  It should be lighter when they cover up the current empty spaces with white ceiling tiles.

It is eventually going to be replaced by a midfield terminal and demolished.  This is a massive upgrade from what it is replacing though (outside walkways to hard stands and a cluster of people in the waiting area at the end of E).  

I suspect this is also why the B and C renovations aren't as nice as they could be.  They are going to be upgrading and widening both with their respective expansions, but renovations were needed ahead of time. 

I'm hopeful that the B and C expansions will be on par with A North.

 

 

Exactly right. Major improvement, functional and perfectly fine for the next 15 years. 

I'm fine with the renovations but they need to drastically improve the janitorial service. 

[CLT2014]

The state of the bathrooms at the airport are just designed to set your expectations that you about to sit in Basic Economy on American Airlines, have an inflight 737 Max bathroom that is like 2 feet wide, and you booked a cheap connecting rate from Boston to Florida through CLT to save $75 in airfare, and that if you had more money or mattered you probably wouldn't be connecting in Charlotte.

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by CLT2014

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

1 hour ago, CltFlyer said:

 

I would suspect the lack in "quality" here is due to the fact that concourse E has a rather limited life span left (10 to 15 years).  It should be lighter when they cover up the current empty spaces with white ceiling tiles.

It is eventually going to be replaced by a midfield terminal and demolished.  This is a massive upgrade from what it is replacing though (outside walkways to hard stands and a cluster of people in the waiting area at the end of E).  

I suspect this is also why the B and C renovations aren't as nice as they could be.  They are going to be upgrading and widening both with their respective expansions, but renovations were needed ahead of time. 

I'm hopeful that the B and C expansions will be on par with A North.

 

 

Exactly, and soaring ceilings in E are less needed than widening B or C and that isn't even going to happen. These are extending the lifespan of terminals which will be replaced in the next expansion phase.

[deleted account]

16 minutes ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

Exactly, and soaring ceilings in E are less needed than widening B or C and that isn't even going to happen. These are extending the lifespan of terminals which will be replaced in the next expansion phase.

I think B and C will be widened when expanded (unless I'm misinformed). There is no longer a date attached to those expansions unfortunately.

[LKN704]

Frankly I think the long-standing belief of "we gotta keep CLT cheap and shabby to appease daddy US/AA or they will leave us" is somewhat antiquated at this point and needs to be let go. AA ain't going anywhere because there isn't anywhere else for them to go. Yes, I understand there have been major hub closures in the past (and have been discussed here before at length) but all closures were due to profound attributes that cannot be compared to CLT today. 

I'm not suggesting the airport go on a massive spending spree...fiscal responsibility is important and its undoubtedly gotten CLT to where it is today. But regardless of what the city does or doesn't do, costs will inevitably rise.  I think as long as CLT sees AA (and all other airlines) as a partner, and actively involves/consults them in expansion projects, there shouldn't be an issue over costs. Frankly given the magnitude of future projects (new satellite concourse, etc), I wouldn't be surprised to see larger projects jointly funded by both the airport and AA. AA had no issue agreeing to a $3.5+ billion (yes, billion) new terminal at DFW. 

There are several areas that I think the airport desperately needs to increase spending on, such as cleanliness. You just can't have bathrooms at a major hub airport looking (and smelling!) like they belong at a county fair. 

[15895]

12 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

Frankly I think the long-standing belief of "we gotta keep CLT cheap and shabby to appease daddy US/AA or they will leave us" is somewhat antiquated at this point and needs to be let go. AA ain't going anywhere because there isn't anywhere else for them to go. Yes, I understand there have been major hub closures in the past (and have been discussed here before at length) but all closures were due to profound attributes that cannot be compared to CLT today. 

I'm not suggesting the airport go on a massive spending spree...fiscal responsibility is important and its undoubtedly gotten CLT to where it is today. But regardless of what the city does or doesn't do, costs will inevitably rise.  I think as long as CLT sees AA (and all other airlines) as a partner, and actively involves/consults them in expansion projects, there shouldn't be an issue over costs. Frankly given the magnitude of future projects (new satellite concourse, etc), I wouldn't be surprised to see larger projects jointly funded by both the airport and AA. AA had no issue agreeing to a $3.5+ billion (yes, billion) new terminal at DFW. 

There are several areas that I think the airport desperately needs to increase spending on, such as cleanliness. You just can't have bathrooms at a major hub airport looking (and smelling!) like they belong at a county fair. 

I see your point but I disagree. In some airports, the customers really are the local citizens. Charlotte airport, American Airlines is really the customer. 

Dallas is a metropolitan area of 7.6 Million people with 23 Fortune 500 Headquarters. Charlotte has 8. 

The other American hubs are at New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Washington, Miami & Phoenix, Philadelphia. They have to compete with quality in most of those markets. It’s more important to invest in facilities in those markets, you’re competing for local share. If United offers a superior product (both inflight and at the airport) - why wouldn’t a business traveler prefer United if United also flew to the same destinations and the same frequency? That dynamic isn’t as pronounced in Charlotte. Business travelers don’t have an alternative and are captive to American (unless they don’t care about connecting which most do.)

Though that’s just my opinion. I’m not sure Americans thoughts. But it’s my hunch of why Charlotte’s renovations are just gold rather than great like say RDU’s terminal. 

I think CLT airport looks fine. Not fancy and no wow factor but I thought it looked better than most. 

 

[SydneyCarton]

Given Charlotte Douglas' dramatic growth, I wonder what its flight volume will be in five years.  Does anyone think that it will be among the world's top fifteen?  I hope so.

 

RankMetropolitan areaCountryTotal passengersAirport(s) included

 

1. LondonUnited Kingdom180,957,374Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Luton, City, Southend

 

2. New YorkUnited States143,797,000JFK, Newark, LaGuardia, Newburgh, Islip, White Plains

 

3. TokyoJapan128,706,040Haneda, Narita, Chōfu, Ibaraki

 

4. ShanghaiChina121,791,337Pudong, Hongqiao

 

5. Los AngelesUnited States113,876,671LAX, Long Beach, Burbank, Orange County, Ontario

 

6. ParisFrance112,004,890CDG, Orly, Beauvais-Tillé

 

7. AtlantaUnited States110,531,300Atlanta

 

8. BeijingChina108,209,128Capital, Nanyuan, Daxing

 

9. BangkokThailand106,796,098Suvarnabhumi, Don Mueang

 

10. ChicagoUnited States105,743,975O'Hare, Midway, Rockford

 

11. IstanbulTurkey103,682,634Atatürk, Sabiha Gökçen

 

12. MoscowRussia103,012,403Sheremetyevo, Domodedovo, Vnukovo, Zhukovsky

 

13. DubaiUnited Arab Emirates101,645,868Dubai, Al Maktoum, Sharjah

 

14. SeoulSouth Korea96,618,138Incheon, Gimpo

 

15. DallasUnited States91,847,114DFW, Love Field

 

[TCLT]

Given Charlotte Douglas' dramatic growth, I wonder what its flight volume will be in five years.  Does anyone think that it will be among the world's top fifteen?  I hope so.
 
RankMetropolitan areaCountryTotal passengersAirport(s) included
 
1. LondonUnited Kingdom180,957,374Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Luton, City, Southend
 
2. New YorkUnited States143,797,000JFK, Newark, LaGuardia, Newburgh, Islip, White Plains
 
3. TokyoJapan128,706,040Haneda, Narita, Chōfu, Ibaraki
 
4. ShanghaiChina121,791,337Pudong, Hongqiao
 
5. Los AngelesUnited States113,876,671LAX, Long Beach, Burbank, Orange County, Ontario
 
6. ParisFrance112,004,890CDG, Orly, Beauvais-Tillé
 
7. AtlantaUnited States110,531,300Atlanta
 
8. BeijingChina108,209,128Capital, Nanyuan, Daxing
 
9. BangkokThailand106,796,098Suvarnabhumi, Don Mueang
 
10. ChicagoUnited States105,743,975O'Hare, Midway, Rockford
 
11. IstanbulTurkey103,682,634Atatürk, Sabiha Gökçen
 
12. MoscowRussia103,012,403Sheremetyevo, Domodedovo, Vnukovo, Zhukovsky
 
13. DubaiUnited Arab Emirates101,645,868Dubai, Al Maktoum, Sharjah
 
14. SeoulSouth Korea96,618,138Incheon, Gimpo
 
15. DallasUnited States91,847,114DFW, Love Field
 

Impossible. CLT would have to double its peak passenger numbers from 2019 to make it into that list. Can’t be done with the current infrastructure and the planned expansions will not be done in anywhere close to 5 years.

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

11 hours ago, TCLT said:

Impossible. CLT would have to double its peak passenger numbers from 2019 to make it into that list. Can’t be done with the current infrastructure and the planned expansions will not be done in anywhere close to 5 years.

That's a pretty poor list tbh. The list should be individual airports, not a conglomeration of a bunch of different "metro area" airports. Of course we couldn't compare to DFW AND Love field.

ATL is the only single airport metro on that list.

[TCLT]

That's a pretty poor list tbh. The list should be individual airports, not a conglomeration of a bunch of different "metro area" airports. Of course we couldn't compare to DFW AND Love field.
ATL is the only single airport metro on that list.

Agree wholeheartedly. The point still stands that it is very difficult to squeeze out much higher passenger volumes from the current airport infrastructure. We just need a lot more gates, particularly mainline. So many of CLT’s gates are regional gates in E where there’s a very low ceiling for upgauging. And AA is pretty close to the limit
of how much they can upgauge and add seats to their planes. CLT already has the highest gate utilization of AA’s hubs too. All this to say CLT’s current numbers are hugely impressive. It’s really amazing how much air service we have.
But lists like this do show pretty well how far from being a major metro Charlotte is. Especially considering CLT’s connecting pax percentage is way higher than any of those. We’re way off the population and travel demand of the big boys.

[SydneyCarton]

1 hour ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

That's a pretty poor list tbh. The list should be individual airports, not a conglomeration of a bunch of different "metro area" airports. Of course we couldn't compare to DFW AND Love field.

ATL is the only single airport metro on that list.

Many of the cities are massive, global cities that have such enormous traffic that could never be accomodated by one airport.  NY and London could never handle over 140m flights in a single airport.  

[CltFlyer]

Honestly, given Atlanta's relative size to the other cities on this list.  It just goes to show how impressive and unique ATL really is.  

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

4 minutes ago, CltFlyer said:

Honestly, given Atlanta's relative size to the other cities on this list.  It just goes to show how impressive and unique ATL really is.  

Shows that Charlotte as the alternative to Atlanta is ultra sustainable. Both are perfectly situated to be the connection point for 2/3rds the population in this country. Memphis, Nashville, Raleigh, Indy, Louisville, Cincinatti can never catch up at this point to be competitive.

[CltFlyer]

15 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

Given Charlotte Douglas' dramatic growth, I wonder what its flight volume will be in five years.  Does anyone think that it will be among the world's top fifteen?  I hope so.

 

RankMetropolitan areaCountryTotal passengersAirport(s) included

 

1. LondonUnited Kingdom180,957,374Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Luton, City, Southend

 

2. New YorkUnited States143,797,000JFK, Newark, LaGuardia, Newburgh, Islip, White Plains

 

3. TokyoJapan128,706,040Haneda, Narita, Chōfu, Ibaraki

 

4. ShanghaiChina121,791,337Pudong, Hongqiao

 

5. Los AngelesUnited States113,876,671LAX, Long Beach, Burbank, Orange County, Ontario

 

6. ParisFrance112,004,890CDG, Orly, Beauvais-Tillé

 

7. AtlantaUnited States110,531,300Atlanta

 

8. BeijingChina108,209,128Capital, Nanyuan, Daxing

 

9. BangkokThailand106,796,098Suvarnabhumi, Don Mueang

 

10. ChicagoUnited States105,743,975O'Hare, Midway, Rockford

 

11. IstanbulTurkey103,682,634Atatürk, Sabiha Gökçen

 

12. MoscowRussia103,012,403Sheremetyevo, Domodedovo, Vnukovo, Zhukovsky

 

13. DubaiUnited Arab Emirates101,645,868Dubai, Al Maktoum, Sharjah

 

14. SeoulSouth Korea96,618,138Incheon, Gimpo

 

15. DallasUnited States91,847,114DFW, Love Field

 

Interesting to note.  Only 4 cities on this list have a current metro population of less than 12 million.

7.  Atlanta-6,089,815- 1 Airport 

10- Chicago - 9,618,502- 3 Airports* (2 significant)

13- Dubai- 5,640,000- 2 Airports* (1 significant)

15- Dallas- 7,637,387- 2 Airports

 

If it weren't for the sheikh money  in Dubai.  It wouldn't be on the list.  

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by CltFlyer

[SydneyCarton]

1 hour ago, CltFlyer said:

Interesting to note.  Only 4 cities on this list have a current metro population of less than 12 million.

7.  Atlanta-6,089,815- 1 Airport 

10- Chicago - 9,618,502- 3 Airports* (2 significant)

13- Dubai- 5,640,000- 2 Airports* (1 significant)

15- Dallas- 7,637,387- 2 Airports

 

If it weren't for the sheikh money  in Dubai.  It wouldn't be on the list.  

 

That's only because each of those US cities are the HQ of a major airline, and, therefore, a lot of traffic is routed through those hubs: Atl (Delta), Chicago (United),  and DFW (AA).  Places like NY, Lon, Paris, Tokyo, Shanghai, etc. have massive  traffic due to their unparalleled global status.  Anyway, as Clt's profile as a global business center rises, I hope that it can crack this list within a decade.

[Miesian Corners]

23 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I see your point but I disagree. In some airports, the customers really are the local citizens. Charlotte airport, American Airlines is really the customer. 

Dallas is a metropolitan area of 7.6 Million people with 23 Fortune 500 Headquarters. Charlotte has 8. 

The other American hubs are at New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Washington, Miami & Phoenix, Philadelphia. They have to compete with quality in most of those markets. It’s more important to invest in facilities in those markets, you’re competing for local share. If United offers a superior product (both inflight and at the airport) - why wouldn’t a business traveler prefer United if United also flew to the same destinations and the same frequency? That dynamic isn’t as pronounced in Charlotte. Business travelers don’t have an alternative and are captive to American (unless they don’t care about connecting which most do.)

Though that’s just my opinion. I’m not sure Americans thoughts. But it’s my hunch of why Charlotte’s renovations are just gold rather than great like say RDU’s terminal. 

I think CLT airport looks fine. Not fancy and no wow factor but I thought it looked better than most. 

 

I've been in Third World airports that have cleaner restrooms than CLT. 

[Urban Cowboy]

I've been in McDonalds with cleaner restrooms than CLT.

[deleted account]

41 minutes ago, Urban Cowboy said:

I've been in McDonalds with cleaner restrooms than CLT.

Too far.

[LKN704]

2 hours ago, Miesian Corners said:

I've been in Third World airports that have cleaner restrooms than CLT. 

I've found major airports in the Global South are generally nicer IMO simply because countries often use grandiose airport terminals as a way to showcase their economic/political strength...its easy PR for the country.  

I've found airports in Europe (other than Zurich, Madrid, Munich, and Oslo) to be quite nasty as well. There was so much cigarette smoke spewing throughout the arrivals hall and check-in area of Geneva's airport a couple years back you would have thought the building was on fire. 

On 1/20/2022 at 5:37 PM, AirNostrumMAD said:

I see your point but I disagree. In some airports, the customers really are the local citizens. Charlotte airport, American Airlines is really the customer. 

Dallas is a metropolitan area of 7.6 Million people with 23 Fortune 500 Headquarters. Charlotte has 8. 

The other American hubs are at New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Washington, Miami & Phoenix, Philadelphia. They have to compete with quality in most of those markets. It’s more important to invest in facilities in those markets, you’re competing for local share. If United offers a superior product (both inflight and at the airport) - why wouldn’t a business traveler prefer United if United also flew to the same destinations and the same frequency? That dynamic isn’t as pronounced in Charlotte. Business travelers don’t have an alternative and are captive to American (unless they don’t care about connecting which most do.)

Though that’s just my opinion. I’m not sure Americans thoughts. But it’s my hunch of why Charlotte’s renovations are just gold rather than great like say RDU’s terminal. 

I think CLT airport looks fine. Not fancy and no wow factor but I thought it looked better than most. 

 

Compete with quality...who??? American???? Go talk to flyers in NYC on whether they would rather fly an AA Oasis torture chamber or a Delta/JetBlue/United plane with seatback video. In their most competitive hub cities (which I view as LA, NYC, and Chicago) they might be competing but it sure as hell isn't on quality. Philly, Miami, and Dallas (and to some extent Phoenix) are all fortress hubs for AA and flyers in those cities are essentially just as captive as Charlotte flyers. 

[SydneyCarton]

LaGuardia is brand new, and a new JFK is going to be built.  It's a matter of time before the same happens at Newark.   Rich New Yorkers fly private.  Teterboro has the most private aircraft traffic in the world, due, in part to NY's unparalleled concentration of wealth, and Westchester County Airport (in the NY suburbs) has the third most private air travel in the US.    Taking off and landing from Westchester entails an aerial tour of enormous mansions, including this 40,000 sf one which is among the biggest.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by SydneyCarton

[15895]

14 hours ago, LKN704 said:

I've found major airports in the Global South are generally nicer IMO simply because countries often use grandiose airport terminals as a way to showcase their economic/political strength...its easy PR for the country.  

I've found airports in Europe (other than Zurich, Madrid, Munich, and Oslo) to be quite nasty as well. There was so much cigarette smoke spewing throughout the arrivals hall and check-in area of Geneva's airport a couple years back you would have thought the building was on fire. 

Compete with quality...who??? American???? Go talk to flyers in NYC on whether they would rather fly an AA Oasis torture chamber or a Delta/JetBlue/United plane with seatback video. In their most competitive hub cities (which I view as LA, NYC, and Chicago) they might be competing but it sure as hell isn't on quality. Philly, Miami, and Dallas (and to some extent Phoenix) are all fortress hubs for AA and flyers in those cities are essentially just as captive as Charlotte flyers. 

Miami has a lot of international competition, Dallas has Southwest and I said most of their hubs. Not all. Charlotte is the clear outlier with by far more connecting traffic. 

Im not going to explain why Charlotte isn’t LA, NYC & Chicago. But ok. For what it’s worth, American is my least preferred airline that I would fly with Delta being my preferred & I think MAD is one of the nicest airports (T-4 is awesome. There is one terminal I flew into on TAP that was ratty but when I flew in on Iberia, it was stunning)

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[LKN704]

4 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Miami has a lot of international competition, Dallas has Southwest and I said most of their hubs. Not all. Charlotte is the clear outlier with by far more connecting traffic. 

Im not going to explain why Charlotte isn’t LA, NYC & Chicago. But ok. For what it’s worth, American is my least preferred airline that I would fly with Delta being my preferred & I think MAD is one of the nicest airports (T-4 is awesome. There is one terminal I flew into on TAP that was ratty but when I flew in on Iberia, it was stunning)

 

I don’t need an explanation as to why Charlotte isn’t an LA/NY/CHI…I’m well aware of the market differences between Charlotte and those cities. You brought up that AA competes on quality at their other hubs. That’s simply not true, unless they have a premium airline within an airline that exclusively operates at their high-revenue hub cities that I am unaware of. 
 

I understand what you are saying about the importance of pleasing AA, but I think your concerns are a bit unfounded. SLC was able to get the airlines to agree on a brand new terminal complex (their previous terminal bore a striking resemblance to CLT, although I found  the old  SLC to be nicer)  despite significantly raising their CPE. 

[TCLT]

4 hours ago, LKN704 said:

You brought up that AA competes on quality at their other hubs. That’s simply not true, unless they have a premium airline within an airline that exclusively operates at their high-revenue hub cities that I am unaware of. 

This is kinda true from a ground service perspective. Admrials club are more plentiful and have more amenities at the high value hubs. Flagship lounges, Flagship First dining, various levels of Five Star Service are only available at higher revenue hubs. And the investments AA makes in facilities at high revenue airports is way more than what they put into CLT. The planes and inflight service is more or less the same at all airports, but the overall experience isn't. 

[SydneyCarton]

Since Charlotte is rapidly growing in population and as an international business center, the airport might start to have a lot more flights originating internally.

[csweet]

21 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

Since Charlotte is rapidly growing in population and as an international business center, the airport might start to have a lot more flights originating internally.

Where do you think flights out of CLT are originating? LOL