Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

19 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Priority Pass lounges are all over the place (because they are all contracted out)...I'm been to really nice lounges; the Air France and Turkish Airlines lounges at Dulles, the Swiss Business Lounge at Zurich (since left the program), and the Star Alliance Lounge in Paris. On the other end of the spectrum, I went to a Priority Pass lounge in Bali years back that was essentially no different than waiting in the terminal, and nothing was free...not even bottled water. 

IME those operated by individual airlines are usually (but not always) better than the contracted no-name lounges. 

Agreed. And Centurion is very nice. So we have a couple things going for us. We should be even better off if Delta continues to expand and place a Sky Club in A North.

[Miesian Corners]

Flying in yesterday, I noticed the girders for the canopy are being delivered to the staging site off Wilkinson Blvd. 

In other news, I finally got a reply from the airport about D & E remodeling. Earth-shattering: 

Renovations in the terminal are ongoing.  Concourse D and Concourse E will receive similar improvements as Concourses A, B and C.  Improvements will include new gate seating with integrated power outlets and USB charging outlets, new terrazzo flooring in the walkway corridor, wall finishes, new ceilings and new public address system.

We recognize that this does not change your experience and hope that these upcoming renovations will improve your experience. 

It's still Jerry World at CLT. His lackluster attention to detail and upkeep are his legacy--one that is, apparently, here to stay. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Miesian Corners

[Urban Cowboy]

I flew into C on Tuesday morning and could not believe how gross the terrazzo flooring in the men's room looked. It was grayish brown in many areas. The CITY of Charlotte needs to press the airport on this topic. It sounds trivial, but 80%-90% (can't remember exact number) of passengers switch planes in CLT. So the impression of Charlotte for many travelers is CLT. Can we at least keep the renovated areas clean? Please. White terrazzo in bathrooms was a bad idea -or- maybe it just wasn't sealed correctly. Something needs to be done. Fingers crossed that Vi Lyles is reading this.  

[deleted account]

1 hour ago, Urban Cowboy said:

I flew into C on Tuesday morning and could not believe how gross the terrazzo flooring in the men's room looked. It was grayish brown in many areas. The CITY of Charlotte needs to press the airport on this topic. It sounds trivial, but 80%-90% (can't remember exact number) of passengers switch planes in CLT. So the impression of Charlotte for many travelers is CLT. Can we at least keep the renovated areas clean? Please. White terrazzo in bathrooms was a bad idea -or- maybe it just wasn't sealed correctly. Something needs to be done. Fingers crossed that Vi Lyles is reading this.  

I've seen the exact same thing. You are correct, it's disgusting and unacceptable.  And I say that as someone who is otherwise generally satisfied with the renovations. 

[JRCLT]

They’re running low on janitorial staff or??

[LKN704]

I've brought up the state of the bathrooms numerous times here, and while I lived in Charlotte I even wrote to the airport complaining about it...not only is it embarrassing but I view it as unsanitary and a safety risk. The bathrooms are quite literally like something you would see at an amusement park or state fair.

CLT doesn't care...AA doesn't care...it's disgusting. I mentioned this about a year ago on this thread, but the restrooms on E are even worse...there was literally a used moldy dishtowel that was sitting on the sink vanity, and paper towel rolls laying on the floor like they were used as pretend footballs. Soap dispensers were somehow torn off the wall and were just laying around the vanity. No urinal partitions. 

The "brand new" bathrooms on the A North pier are equally as bad...moldy orange slime growing on the tile backsplash, mysterious brown smears all over the sink.

I get it...airports are busy places and it's hard to shut a bathroom down for cleaning in the middle of the day, and yet somehow other airports (even busier ones) are able to make it work.

[CLT2014]

Does anybody feel like things got worse when the airport switched to ABM in 2019 from Sunshine Cleaning? There also used to be a dedicated bathroom attendant in each bathroom (which was a little weird at times), but those are pretty much gone now so I think they just don't get cleaned enough to keep up with the amount of people going through the airport. 

To be fair to CLT, I've noticed similar problems at most large hub airports though from ATL to DEN to SEA to ORD to LAX, et... all get trashed. Part of it is related to hygiene in the USA. Peeing on the floor, missing the urinal, throwing water everywhere at a sink, getting soap on the floors, throwing toilet papers around, not flushing, et... smaller boutique airports can keep up, but the large hub airports with banked schedules are pretty much a $@$ show. For a 1.5 hour bank that bathroom is pretty much a disaster within 10 minutes as the hoards of people trash the restroom... if you are the 2000th person in the bathroom.... pretty much game over.  I can't think of many large US airports where I was like "wow, this is a clean / sanitized space." Usually just try to get in / out as quick as possible. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by CLT2014

[Cadi40]

While that is a great observation, my expectation for an airport bathroom is very minimal.  

[elrodvt]

I hated the attendants - it was demeaning. I don't think someone needs to be in there all the time. 

The current situation reminds me of the bad old days at jfk. Not quite that bad though!

[deleted account]

4 hours ago, LKN704 said:

mysterious brown smears all over the sink.

Maybe not so mysterious (I have a theory on what those are)...

[CltFlyer]

An update on the concourse E expansion.  

#DestinationCLT Update: Concourse E Expansion will welcome passengers this spring. It will contain holdroom space for 10 gates, a Pet Relief Area, Mother’s Room, restrooms, terrazzo flooring in the walkways, new concessions and new artwork – hence the green lights. #CLTairport

The hallways seem a little tight, but hopefully the removal of the temporary walls will get it a more sense of openness.  

I'm intrigued to see what the artwork will be, but I like the green lighting.  

[Owenorange]

Just came back from SFO, and holy crap their B (Harvey Milk) terminal is absolutely beautiful. It’s like the whole terminal is a boutique hotel, water bottle filling stations as soon as you get through security, great local food options throughout, comfy chairs, amazing art, and three (THREE!) children’s play areas. 

[Urban Cowboy]

1 hour ago, Owenorange said:

Just came back from SFO, and holy crap their B (Harvey Milk) terminal is absolutely beautiful. It’s like the whole terminal is a boutique hotel, water bottle filling stations as soon as you get through security, great local food options throughout, comfy chairs, amazing art, and three (THREE!) children’s play areas. 

The bathrooms there are gorgeous, too

[deleted account]

5 hours ago, Owenorange said:

Just came back from SFO, and holy crap their B (Harvey Milk) terminal is absolutely beautiful. It’s like the whole terminal is a boutique hotel, water bottle filling stations as soon as you get through security, great local food options throughout, comfy chairs, amazing art, and three (THREE!) children’s play areas. 

But do they have rocking chairs?!? 

I agree, SFO is nice...

[LKN704]

The Harvey Milk terminal is interesting because it shows what you can do with an existing space...several parts of the terminal aren't "new" but date from the 1960s. They did build brand new gates IIRC, but several parts of the terminal were just gutted interior-wise and completely rebuilt (and brought up to earthquake code). SFO did the same with Terminal 2 in 2008...they added four new gates, but also spent half a billion dollars completely gutting the existing terminal and renovating it. It's quite nice. 

I get that Americans in general are pigs, but several hub airports in the US have nice bathrooms that are generally clean. SFO, DCA, IAD, LAX (some terminals are shabby, but the TBIT bathrooms are nice, although I did find an empty bottle of Jose Cuervo clogged in a bathroom stall there once) are all cleaner than CLT and don't have the same weird staining/mold issues CLT has. The first set of the new gates at LGA opened the same year as the CLT A North gates did, yet LGA's bathrooms still look brand new. 

While I don't disagree that other airports restrooms aren't pigstys, several problems are unique to Charlotte. Moldly orange caulk should not be falling off the wall in a brand new bathroom. 

I get that airport bathrooms are very much an in and out type thing, but why should we accept mediocracy for Charlotte?

Charlotte is still the only airport I have encountered air in the concourse during the summer months that was absolutely putrid...almost like  groups of flight attendants got off multiple planes simultaneously and starting waving large sacks of onions in the air. Yet airports elsewhere in humid climates don't seem to have that issue. 

[CLT2014]

I absolutely agree on cleanliness, but I just want to point some numbers out on quality and why we don't have facilities like SFO.

SFO vs CLT... while CLT is a very large airport.... the revenue situation is not even comparable.

SFO Airport Commission brings in revenue of $1.3 BILLION per year. The landing fees alone charged to airlines amounts to $236 million.

CLT brings in revenue of $380 million per year... the cost for airlines (largely American) is 8% of pulling up to a gate at SFO.

So with about A BILLION more in revenue per year.... SFO is able to afford to rebuild just one 24 gate concourse for $2.2 billion for nearly the same budget ($3 billion) CLT has to do the entire Destination CLT project that includes renovating 100+ gates, add the new A and E concourses, add a runway, expand the terminal lobby, add a new roadway, add deicing pads, etc...

It isn't that different than personal life.... Some people have $150,000 to renovate their kitchen and it is stunning. Other people have $30,000 and have to go to Ikea... CLT's main lever to get to SFO and LAX revenue is to charge American Airlines 5 to 10 times more than they do today... and the reality is we would probably be a much smaller hub if we did that. AA's investment in CLT shows we are a convenient and profitable low cost connecting hub for people that don't pay for nonstops. Unless AA pays more... we just don't have the revenue. It's like expecting somebody who makes $50,000 a year to have the same house as somebody that makes $700,000 a year. AA is the main tenant... they ARE a huge portion of the airport budget. If they wanted fancy terminals they could just agree to pay more because it would largely benefit their customers... but they aren't interested.

Edited March 13, 2022 by CLT2014

[BarrenLucidity]

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

I absolutely agree on cleanliness, but I just want to point some numbers out on quality and why we don't have facilities like SFO.

SFO vs CLT... while CLT is a very large airport.... the revenue situation is not even comparable.

SFO Airport Commission brings in revenue of $1.3 BILLION per year. The landing fees alone charged to airlines amounts to $236 million.

CLT brings in revenue of $380 million per year... the cost for airlines (largely American) is 8% of pulling up to a gate at SFO.

So with about A BILLION more in revenue per year.... SFO is able to afford to rebuild just one 24 gate concourse for $2.2 billion for nearly the same budget ($3 billion) CLT has to do the entire Destination CLT project that includes renovating 100+ gates, add the new A and E concourses, add a runway, expand the terminal lobby, add a new roadway, add deicing pads, etc...

It isn't that different than personal life.... Some people have $150,000 to renovate their kitchen and it is stunning. Other people have $30,000 and have to go to Ikea... CLT's main lever to get to SFO and LAX revenue is to charge American Airlines 5 to 10 times more than they do today... and the reality is we would probably be a much smaller hub if we did that. AA's investment in CLT shows we are a convenient and profitable low cost connecting hub for people that don't pay for nonstops. Unless AA pays more... we just don't have the revenue. It's like expecting somebody who makes $50,000 a year to have the same house as somebody that makes $700,000 a year. AA is the main tenant... they ARE a huge portion of the airport budget. If they wanted fancy terminals they could just agree to pay more because it would largely benefit their customers... but they aren't interested.

Unless you're a premium market for AA your terminal is going to be lackluster. Even their flagship terminals are suspect if we are being honest. 

We are AAs most profitable hub and the AC is getting a modest renovation because of a fire code issue. Not because they actually wanted to compete. 

The flip side of that is that we can fly nonstop to damn near anywhere in the country. Try doing that from Nashville or Indianapolis. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by BarrenLucidity

[LKN704]

2 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

I absolutely agree on cleanliness, but I just want to point some numbers out on quality and why we don't have facilities like SFO.

SFO vs CLT... while CLT is a very large airport.... the revenue situation is not even comparable.

SFO Airport Commission brings in revenue of $1.3 BILLION per year. The landing fees alone charged to airlines amounts to $236 million.

CLT brings in revenue of $380 million per year... the cost for airlines (largely American) is 8% of pulling up to a gate at SFO.

So with about A BILLION more in revenue per year.... SFO is able to afford to rebuild just one 24 gate concourse for $2.2 billion for nearly the same budget ($3 billion) CLT has to do the entire Destination CLT project that includes renovating 100+ gates, add the new A and E concourses, add a runway, expand the terminal lobby, add a new roadway, add deicing pads, etc...

It isn't that different than personal life.... Some people have $150,000 to renovate their kitchen and it is stunning. Other people have $30,000 and have to go to Ikea... CLT's main lever to get to SFO and LAX revenue is to charge American Airlines 5 to 10 times more than they do today... and the reality is we would probably be a much smaller hub if we did that. AA's investment in CLT shows we are a convenient and profitable low cost connecting hub for people that don't pay for nonstops. Unless AA pays more... we just don't have the revenue. It's like expecting somebody who makes $50,000 a year to have the same house as somebody that makes $700,000 a year. AA is the main tenant... they ARE a huge portion of the airport budget. If they wanted fancy terminals they could just agree to pay more because it would largely benefit their customers... but they aren't interested.

It's interesting that some always respond to my posts as if I am unaware of the differences between the Charlotte market and say SF/LA/NY and their associated airports, but whenever I point out that CLT not having nonstops to XYZ or doesn't have PDQ is because at the end of a day it is say a second-tier city compared to SF and is low-yielding and has a low cost base, folks on this forum either act like I don't know what I am talking about or get butthurt as if I am "insulting" Charlotte. I'm well aware of CLT'S CPE and landing fees compared to other airports. 

You are missing the point. No one is saying that Charlotte needs to have facilities like that in SFO. With your analogy, one could very well make an inexpensive IKEA kitchen look just as good as the kitchen for 150k. The issue is it feels like CLT is intentionally cutting corners and being cheap when they don't need to. The bathrooms in the A North extension are quite nice...but again, why is there moldy grout on the tile backsplash? That's such a simple fix that doesn't require a several hundred thousand dollar investment. Ditto for the soap dispensers simply ripped off the wall laying about in the bathroom. They just don't care. 

It's no different than CLT being willing to accept the terrazzo project that was completed with stains embedded in the terrazzo, only for them to go back and fix it after getting complaints. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by LKN704

[CltFlyer]

1 hour ago, BarrenLucidity said:

Unless you're a premium market for AA your terminal is going to be lackluster. Even their flagship terminals are suspect if we are being honest. 

We are AAs most profitable hub and the AC is getting a modest renovation because of a fire code issue. Not because they actually wanted to compete. 

The flip side of that is that we can fly nonstop to damn near anywhere in the country. Try doing that from Nashville or Indianapolis. 

That reasoning isn't entirely true.  When they expand C.  The new FIS corridor will be going right through the area of the C/D Admirals Club.  Therefore they aren't going to do a complete overhaul now, and will instead wait until they have to revamp it for FIS expansion.

[CLT2014]

18 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

It's interesting that some always respond to my posts as if I am unaware of the differences between the Charlotte market and say SF/LA/NY and their associated airports, but whenever I point out that CLT not having nonstops to XYZ or doesn't have PDQ is because at the end of a day it is say a second-tier city compared to SF and is low-yielding and has a low cost base, folks on this forum either act like I don't know what I am talking about or get butthurt as if I am "insulting" Charlotte. I'm well aware of CLT'S CPE and landing fees compared to other airports. 

I wasn't responding to you... which is why I didn't quote you. I agree with you that they should improve bathroom cleanliness and get a different vendor. I think ABM should be held accountable.

My post was with regard to general "facility envy" on this thread from the high quality / expensive / complete rebuilds seen at other airports.

Edited March 13, 2022 by CLT2014

[kayman]

13 hours ago, LKN704 said:

It's interesting that some always respond to my posts as if I am unaware of the differences between the Charlotte market and say SF/LA/NY and their associated airports, but whenever I point out that CLT not having nonstops to XYZ or doesn't have PDQ is because at the end of a day it is say a second-tier city compared to SF and is low-yielding and has a low cost base, folks on this forum either act like I don't know what I am talking about or get butthurt as if I am "insulting" Charlotte. I'm well aware of CLT'S CPE and landing fees compared to other airports. 

You are missing the point. No one is saying that Charlotte needs to have facilities like that in SFO. With your analogy, one could very well make an inexpensive IKEA kitchen look just as good as the kitchen for 150k. The issue is it feels like CLT is intentionally cutting corners and being cheap when they don't need to. The bathrooms in the A North extension are quite nice...but again, why is there moldy grout on the tile backsplash? That's such a simple fix that doesn't require a several hundred thousand dollar investment. Ditto for the soap dispensers simply ripped off the wall laying about in the bathroom. They just don't care. 

It's no different than CLT being willing to accept the terrazzo project that was completed with stains embedded in the terrazzo, only for them to go back and fix it after getting complaints. 

If it is a big issue then notify the Charlotte City Council of these conditions and bring it to their attention so that it becomes priority. I don't believe just posting and complaining about it will solve anything. Especially since there seems to be subtle complicity of "everything is controlled by the City of Charlotte" notion is constantly thrown around accepted.

Email if not all of the Charlotte City Council members with photographic proof and draw attention to the unsanitary condition of CLT Airport restrooms. I bet it will become priority once it is apparent to not only them but the local media outlets. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by kayman

[Miesian Corners]

On 3/13/2022 at 11:18 AM, kayman said:

If it is a big issue then notify the Charlotte City Council of these conditions and bring it to their attention so that it becomes priority. I don't believe just posting and complaining about it will solve anything. Especially since there seems to be subtle complicity of "everything is controlled by the City of Charlotte" notion is constantly thrown around accepted.

Email if not all of the Charlotte City Council members with photographic proof and draw attention to the unsanitary condition of CLT Airport restrooms. I bet it will become priority once it is apparent to not only them but the local media outlets. 

People DO complain. Rarely does the airport care. 

I'm just glad I don't have to hear "Hi, I'm Vi Lyles, mayor of the City of Charlotte..." incessantly on the PA system anymore.

[LKN704]

32 minutes ago, Miesian Corners said:

People DO complain. Rarely does the airport care. 

I'm just glad I don't have to hear "Hi, I'm Vi Lyles, mayor of the City of Charlotte..." incessantly on the PA system anymore.

"...as the nation's 16th largest city..." 

I wonder if Indy's (very nice) airport plays announcements from the mayor over the PA welcoming people to the nation's 15th largest city. 

[deleted account]

On 3/13/2022 at 11:18 AM, kayman said:

If it is a big issue then notify the Charlotte City Council of these conditions and bring it to their attention so that it becomes priority. I don't believe just posting and complaining about it will solve anything. Especially since there seems to be subtle complicity of "everything is controlled by the City of Charlotte" notion is constantly thrown around accepted.

Email if not all of the Charlotte City Council members with photographic proof and draw attention to the unsanitary condition of CLT Airport restrooms. I bet it will become priority once it is apparent to not only them but the local media outlets. 

I wouldn't suggest photographic proof of unsanitary restroom conditions...that could lead to bad outcomes for the photographer. 

FWIW, I drove to the airport Saturday and the lobby expansion looks awesome and, as someone mentioned, the canopy pillars are in place.

Edited March 17, 2022 by JBS

[kayman]

26 minutes ago, JBS said:

I wouldn't suggest photographic proof of unsanitary restroom conditions...that could lead to bad outcomes for the photographer. 

FWIW, I drove to the airport Saturday and the lobby expansion looks awesome and, as someone mentioned, the canopy pillars are in place.

Huh? How? That's the only way to prove that it exists if a constituent is complaining to the government entity and officials. Last time, I recall unless it's changed during the most recent legislative session, North Carolina is a one-consent state to recording or photo evidence.  Also if no one other than the said photographer is in the photo that shouldn't be any concern at all. 

1 hour ago, Miesian Corners said:

People DO complain. Rarely does the airport care. 

I'm just glad I don't have to hear "Hi, I'm Vi Lyles, mayor of the City of Charlotte..." incessantly on the PA system anymore.

I would keep complaining with documentation. Also directly contacting Charlotte City Council members will aid in this paper trail validity. I would even attend in-person or virtually a Charlotte City Council meeting to voice my concerns. A sqeaky wheel will get the oil no matter how much persistent required.