Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[LKN704]

https://viewfromthewing.com/heres-how-american-airlines-will-use-the-new-airbus-a321xlr-in-charlotte/

Nothing really unexpected, and what I predicted all along. London obviously would maintain 772 service, and I probably see Munich maintaining a 772 simply for the large amounts of cargo seen on the route. Then again, the passenger loads on AA's service are very poor IIRC. I wouldn't be surprised to see Madrid go year round, maybe with the 772 in the summer and the A321XLR in the winter. I know pre-pandemic AA was exploring more secondary German cities from Charlotte (Hamburg, Dusseldorf) but the pandemic probably hampered those possibilities, at least for the foreseeable future. 

3 hours ago, Lemskroob said:

As a Delta FF, the 717 is not their worst product. Its a 2-3 configuration, which many FFs love because it means only one middle seat at each row. Plus, Delta has announced they are going to upgrade all their cabins to include IFEs. 

 

No, their worst product is the old 737-800s they fly around, which have some of the most ancient, yellowed, broken, torn-up interiors i have seen on a major airline in a very long while.   

  

Ultimately, i would love to get the A220 here in CLT, but for now, the 717 is fine (if no the 737-900)

 

 

Also, JB definitely also has NYC flights, not just BOS

Delta isn't adding IFE to the 717s as they will be leaving the fleet by 2025. The WiFi on the plane (when it works) sucks, as it is the first-generation air to ground system. Most Delta mainline aircraft now use satellite technology which is faster and more reliable. The A220 (as you mentioned) is also in a 2-3 configuration. In any case, I find the 717 to be extremely cramped and uncomfortable and go out of my way flying it. 

JetBlue hasn't flown Charlotte-NYC in years. 

[CltFlyer]

6 hours ago, LKN704 said:

https://viewfromthewing.com/heres-how-american-airlines-will-use-the-new-airbus-a321xlr-in-charlotte/

Nothing really unexpected, and what I predicted all along. London obviously would maintain 772 service, and I probably see Munich maintaining a 772 simply for the large amounts of cargo seen on the route. Then again, the passenger loads on AA's service are very poor IIRC. I wouldn't be surprised to see Madrid go year round, maybe with the 772 in the summer and the A321XLR in the winter. I know pre-pandemic AA was exploring more secondary German cities from Charlotte (Hamburg, Dusseldorf) but the pandemic probably hampered those possibilities, at least for the foreseeable future. 

I can't see any of the routes that currently have the 772 losing it.  The 321XLR could accelerate the return of Paris (CDG), but I see that coming back in Summer 2023 with a 772 regardless.  As you allude to.  I do think it will allow them to try the likes of MAD, DUB, and or CDG in the winter.  I also wouldn't count out a 2nd daily Frankfurt flight in the summer on the 321XLR (US did this for a period of time in the summer when they were still in Star Alliance).  

As for new routes.  I think DUS is a very possible add at some point.  It could even debatably work year round given the amount of German demand to Florida in the winter.

[Reverie39]

Some of you don't sound like Carolinians 

Give me pleasant temperature with plenty of sun and a light breeze any day. NC has that for a pretty huge chunk of the year, which is why many consider us one of the best states climate-wise. Plenty of people move here partially for the weather.

[CltFlyer]

CLT will see several Transatlantic changes over the next 2 weeks.

On this Sunday 3/27.  London goes back to 2 daily and Madrid returns 1 daily.

On Tuesday 4/5.  Rome comes back 1 daily.

Later on Thursday 5/5.  DUB comes back 1 daily

 

All flights on Boeing 777-200ER

[KJHburg]

this is not good....

Charlotte Fire is responding to a kitchen fire in the Atrium area. Passengers have been safely removed from the Atrium area to the concourses. The roadway in front of the Terminal is currently closed to traffic for emergency crews.

Charlotte Fire is responding to a situation in the Atrium. At this time, passengers are being moved away from the Atrium.

from twitter

sources tell WBT radio it was a fire at the Burger King

Edited March 23, 2022 by KJHburg

[Miesian Corners]

40 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

this is not good....

Charlotte Fire is responding to a kitchen fire in the Atrium area. Passengers have been safely removed from the Atrium area to the concourses. The roadway in front of the Terminal is currently closed to traffic for emergency crews.

Charlotte Fire is responding to a situation in the Atrium. At this time, passengers are being moved away from the Atrium.

from twitter

sources tell WBT radio it was a fire at the Burger King

Terminal is reopening in the next 30 minutes. Sad this is what it takes to get a remodel at the BK.

[Madison Parkitect]

1 minute ago, Miesian Corners said:

Sad this is what it takes to get a remodel at the BK.

Isn't there always a fire at the Burger King? That's kind of their whole deal.

[Popsickle]

27 minutes ago, Madison Parkitect said:

Isn't there always a fire at the Burger King? That's kind of their whole deal.

Just landed in CLT terminal B smells like a Whooper. 

[deleted account]

1 hour ago, Madison Parkitect said:

Isn't there always a fire at the Burger King? That's kind of their whole deal.

Underrated post...

[CltFlyer]

As seen commented on CLTs Facebook post on the incident.

 

[BarrenLucidity]

7 hours ago, CltFlyer said:

CLT will see several Transatlantic changes over the next 2 weeks.

On this Sunday 3/27.  London goes back to 2 daily and Madrid returns 1 daily.

On Tuesday 4/5.  Rome comes back 1 daily.

Later on Thursday 5/5.  DUB comes back 1 daily

 

All flights on Boeing 777-200ER

Madrid airport is top notch. Glad to see it and Dublin back. 

[a2theb]

On 3/22/2022 at 5:44 PM, LKN704 said:

Delta isn't adding IFE to the 717s as they will be leaving the fleet by 2025. The WiFi on the plane (when it works) sucks, as it is the first-generation air to ground system. Most Delta mainline aircraft now use satellite technology which is faster and more reliable. The A220 (as you mentioned) is also in a 2-3 configuration. In any case, I find the 717 to be extremely cramped and uncomfortable and go out of my way flying it. 

 

The 717s feel roomier than their older 752s in whatever configuration they run with no comfort+ (at least I dont think they have comfort+). 

[uptownliving]

 

City Council approved the $172M Construction contract for the A North Expansion last night. This will basically be a copy/paste of the existing A North and will take about 2 years to build to add these 10 new gates.

The plan is for Delta to move from their gates in "old" A to these newly constructed gates in 2 years. American will take over the current Delta gates in old A after Delta moves.

 

City Council also approved a $10M contract for the Dual Taxi Lanes around Concourse D&E. This project will greatly reduce the existing congestion from all the planes that use Concourse E and have to use what amounts to a single lane country road to squeeze by all the big jets in Concourse D. Project will be complete in 2 years.

Edited March 29, 2022 by uptownliving
add pic

[csweet]

Amazing news! Will it really be completed by 2024? I find that hard to believe.

 

The dual taxiway is an under rated approval. Do we know what it will look like around D&E?

 

 

[tozmervo]

58 minutes ago, csweet said:

Amazing news! Will it really be completed by 2024? I find that hard to believe.

The dual taxiway is an under rated approval. Do we know what it will look like around D&E?

By Q3 or Q4 of 2024 seems reasonable for a project this size.

I assume the taxiway stuff is just converting some grass islands into a plane lane. 

[csweet]

2 hours ago, tozmervo said:

By Q3 or Q4 of 2024 seems reasonable for a project this size.

I assume the taxiway stuff is just converting some grass islands into a plane lane. 

First expansion did take 24 months, but just seems like more work needs to be done here.

 

The grass islands are not that big, based on a quick map view:

 

[LKN704]

6 hours ago, uptownliving said:

 

City Council approved the $172M Construction contract for the A North Expansion last night. This will basically be a copy/paste of the existing A North and will take about 2 years to build to add these 10 new gates.

The plan is for Delta to move from their gates in "old" A to these newly constructed gates in 2 years. American will take over the current Delta gates in old A after Delta moves.

 

City Council also approved a $10M contract for the Dual Taxi Lanes around Concourse D&E. This project will greatly reduce the existing congestion from all the planes that use Concourse E and have to use what amounts to a single lane country road to squeeze by all the big jets in Concourse D. Project will be complete in 2 years.

That's good news, although it is disappointing to hear that the terminal headhouse project (ticketing and baggage claim facilities) was eliminated from this phase. Hopefully that portion of the terminal expansion is still on track to be completed at a later date. 

I'm not sure how the current gate assignment system works in the original A Concourse...are the gates common-use or do AA/DL have exclusive use over a certain number of gates? It seems that Delta seems to use A1, A3, A5, A7, A9, A11, A12, and A13, although the number of gates used (8) seems high given their current flight schedule into CLT, especially considering that some gates are only used for one or two departures daily. 

In any case, the hidden (and more important news IMO) out of this is that AA will essentially be getting 8 additional gates. 

[a2theb]

I may be completely misremembering the master plan but wasnt the original intent to convert most of 23/5 into taxiway?

[CltFlyer]

3 hours ago, csweet said:

First expansion did take 24 months, but just seems like more work needs to be done here.

 

The grass islands are not that big, based on a quick map view:

 

As we speak.  Gates on concourse D are having their stands re-done to allow for more space on the taxiway as part of the two-way taxiway project.  Gates D6, D8, and D10 have already been re-done and they are working on D12 and D13 right now.  Lufthansa has been using D10 instead of D12 for several weeks now.  

While AA will be getting 8 new gates on A once part 2 is done.  Keep in mind that several of these will simply be replacing the gates they will have to block off as they begin the B or C expansion project next.

 

On another note.  Beginning in June (through July for now).  Asheville (AVL) will be seeing mainline!  There is one daily Airbus 319 currently in the schedule.  It's been a long time since mainline has been flown on this route.  Burlington, VT is also seeing a daily 319 as well.  

[JeanClt]

First expansion did take 24 months, but just seems like more work needs to be done here.
 
The grass islands are not that big, based on a quick map view:

 

Work has been going on in that area for a while now. This will probably go in hand with the new end around taxi-way in the north they’re constructing looping around the runaway off to the left of concourse A. If it says 24 months it is probably that unless anything substantial takes place or didn’t account for certain delivery delays but they should have.

[Phillydog]

1 hour ago, CltFlyer said:

As we speak.  Gates on concourse D are having their stands re-done to allow for more space on the taxiway as part of the two-way taxiway project.  Gates D6, D8, and D10 have already been re-done and they are working on D12 and D13 right now.  Lufthansa has been using D10 instead of D12 for several weeks now.  

While AA will be getting 8 new gates on A once part 2 is done.  Keep in mind that several of these will simply be replacing the gates they will have to block off as they begin the B or C expansion project next.

 

On another note.  Beginning in June (through July for now).  Asheville (AVL) will be seeing mainline!  There is one daily Airbus 319 currently in the schedule.  It's been a long time since mainline has been flown on this route.  Burlington, VT is also seeing a daily 319 as well.  

...speaking of Lufthansa == can anyone comment on how the service is working for them?  Could their success mean other international carriers join the mix at CLT?  Thanks in advance...

Edited March 29, 2022 by Phillydog

[CLT2014]

24 minutes ago, Phillydog said:

...speaking of Lufthansa == can anyone comment on how the service is working for them?  Could their success mean other international carriers join the mix at CLT?  Thanks in advance...

Lufthansa has been flying to CLT for 18 years. I hasn't really stimulated any other international carriers to start flying to CLT. Germany is one of our strongest international business ties, so between Lufthansa and American non-stop services we are pretty well covered to that region. AA has London locked down, so no reason for British Airways to bother given their alliance. If we get another international airline, it would likely be a Oneworld partner that could leverage connecting traffic from American Airlines. Possibly Qatar to Doha or Iberia to Madrid.

Off chance we get an ultra low cost trans-Atlantic carrier more focused on the leisure market at some point... those in general come and go though and have largely proven to not be successful business models (Norwegian, Wow Air, et)

Edited March 29, 2022 by CLT2014

[Phillydog]

16 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

Lufthansa has been flying to CLT for 18 years. I hasn't really stimulated any other international carriers to start flying to CLT. Germany is one of our strongest international business ties, so between Lufthansa and American non-stop services we are pretty well covered to that region. AA has London locked down, so no reason for British Airways to bother given their alliance. If we get another international airline, it would likely be a Oneworld partner that could leverage connecting traffic from American Airlines. Possibly Qatar to Doha or Iberia to Madrid.

Off chance we get an ultra low cost trans-Atlantic carrier more focused on the leisure market at some point... those in general come and go though and have largely proven to not be successful business models (Norwegian, Wow Air, et)

Thanks CLT2014.  You're right -- 18 years.  I flew one of the first flights.  $99 each way.  It was my late husband's first trip to Europe (thank you, Lufthansa).   If NC had high speed rail linking the cities to the mountains and the beaches, I feel like we could become a great international destination -- imagine a rail connection from RDU or CLT to the high-speed line landing passengers who could then be in Asheville or Wilmington by rail in a few hours and then travel between Asheville and Wilmington in say, 3 hours....  There would be days when you could be walking around in snow at breakfast and then sitting under a palm tree in your shorts by dinner.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Phillydog

[CltFlyer]

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

Lufthansa has been flying to CLT for 18 years. I hasn't really stimulated any other international carriers to start flying to CLT. Germany is one of our strongest international business ties, so between Lufthansa and American non-stop services we are pretty well covered to that region. AA has London locked down, so no reason for British Airways to bother given their alliance. If we get another international airline, it would likely be a Oneworld partner that could leverage connecting traffic from American Airlines. Possibly Qatar to Doha or Iberia to Madrid.

Off chance we get an ultra low cost trans-Atlantic carrier more focused on the leisure market at some point... those in general come and go though and have largely proven to not be successful business models (Norwegian, Wow Air, et)

This essentially hits the nail on the head on why we don't have more international carriers.  You could even stretch this farther to say this same scenario is why we don't have Alaska Airlines, etc....

Despite AA having the route largely covered.  I do think we should have seen British Airways back on London by now.  They serve every other major AA hub, but I understand the argument for why they aren't here yet.

As for other One World airlines go I think Finnair to Helsinki and (10 years down the road or so)  Qatar to DOH are our best bets for new other One World International carriers.  The Charlotte area has sizeable business ties to the region (Sweden in particular) and Finnair could offer better connections to this region.  Additionally, the exploding Indian subcontinent population in North Carolina will eventually reach the point to where we can support a Qatar flight.

A crucial factor that will help us support more flights going forward is that Charlotte itself  is rapidly expanding from an economic stand point as well.  Having said that, our local demand does have quite a bit of growing to do to meet up with the local supply of international flights.  This also means that due to our already extensive European coverage for a city our size.  The likelihood of an Icelandair type airline starting service is slim.  

This last part is purely speculation, but I do wonder if our relative shortage of ticket counter space available in the terminal lobby has also led to airlines like British Airways and Alaska holding onto starting service.  As an airport we only have 2 or 3 counter spaces open.  If that.  The terminal lobby expansion should help this.

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by CltFlyer

[LKN704]

British Airways essentially does serve Charlotte, as does Iberia and Finnair. 

The alliance between AA and BA (+Finnair and Iberia) is much more than a standard alliance...it's a joint venture that has been granted anti-trust immunity and all act as one carrier across the Atlantic. All four carriers work together to set pricing, schedules, and other operational behind the scenes details. When you buy a ticket for a flight on any flight covered by the JV, the money essentially goes into the same pot regardless of who is flying the route. 

For example, when BA announced Portland-Heathrow service in 2019, AA put out its own press release for the flight, and the title of the article left it unclear as to whom was actually operating the flight...it wasn't until you opened the article that you would find that it was BA who was in fact operating the flight: https://news.aa.com/news/news-details/2019/Bigger-Better-and-More-Connected-American-Atlantic-Joint-Business-Partners-Announce-New-LondonPortland-Route-NET-ALP/default.aspx. 

With the above in mind, there is little need for BA to start CLT service, just for the sake of serving Charlotte. Someone in the UK (or US for that matter) who is unfamiliar with the JV can purchase a ticket on BA.com (or Iberia, or Finnair) as they normally would, with the same price on all websites. 

Of course, the supposed "benefit" to the consumer (and Charlotte in this example) is that if AA wanted to add a 3rd daily London flight but lacked the Heathrow slots or lacked slack in the fleet, they could have BA pick up the tab and operate the flight. 

BA serves every other AA hub because all other AA hubs are in much larger metropolitan areas that have long had British Airways service since the 1990s/80/70s/60s/50s etc that all predate the AA alliance. 

Recall that BA really only served Charlotte due to their alliance with US at the time. Once the alliance ended in 1998, they attempted the route on their own but 9/11 effectively sealed the flight's fate (especially because they downgraded the route from nonstop to include a stopover in Baltimore). 

It was fun to see their aircraft at that time, as seen below in one of the only images I can find of them serving Charlotte.

Their ill-fated, doomed, heavily ridiculed "Project Utopia" livery/branding/customer-service/business outlook at the time was truly a sight to see and was full of new-millennium kumbaya goodness.