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Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion


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14 hours ago, KJHburg said:

I was over at CLT doing a drop off today and notice a Contour jet?  Where do they fly I am not familiar with them. 

Pretty sure Contour survives on EAS subsidies and jumped on routes that regionals (I believe mostly the wholly own subsidiaries) pulled back from. 

 

They did sign an interline agreement with AA pre-covid but I am not sure what happened to it over the previous 2 years.

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50 minutes ago, a2theb said:

Pretty sure Contour survives on EAS subsidies and jumped on routes that regionals (I believe mostly the wholly own subsidiaries) pulled back from. 

 

They did sign an interline agreement with AA pre-covid but I am not sure what happened to it over the previous 2 years.

Contour flies to Muscle Shoals, AL , Beckley & Parkersburg WV. They definitely survive on EAS subsidies lol.

Interesting enough, Contour did just bid a couple CLT routes this week. All of these are EAS proposals:

PAH to CLT
CKB to CLT
LWB to CLT

JST to CLT
SHD to CLT

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On 4/27/2022 at 8:49 PM, LKN704 said:

4) I'm really not sure what happened, but the food quality of the Centurion Lounge has really deteriorated. For breakfast they had reconstituted, powdered scrambled eggs, bacon, Hampton Inn-style soggy croissants and pastries, and a syrup covered  fruit medley, all served on paper plates. No other lounge in the system has gone down hill like that, so I am not sure what is going on at CLT. 

My fiancee came through CLT and the Centurion Lounge yesterday.  She states they had proper plating and their regular breakfast (eggs, sausage, etc..) back.  Fortunately, this situation must have only been temporary.

13 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Hmmm...the Starbucks from the original rendering is gone, but the SkyClub stays, albeit at a different location. I would say that a SkyClub is highly likely at this point. I would hope that an architectural firm wouldn't make the same copyright issue twice, especially now that a government agency is distributing said rendering. 

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Notice that the new rendering is from the opposite angle.  I would think it's highly likely we get another Starbucks with this expansion.

 

On another note.  The Dunkin Donuts in the atrium opened last week.

21 minutes ago, csweet said:

Contour flies to Muscle Shoals, AL , Beckley & Parkersburg WV. They definitely survive on EAS subsidies lol.

Interesting enough, Contour did just bid a couple CLT routes this week. All of these are EAS proposals:

PAH to CLT
CKB to CLT
LWB to CLT

JST to CLT
SHD to CLT

I would assume depending on what gets approved that they would combine some of these similar to Beckley and Parkersburg.

 

CKB (Clarksburg, WV) and LWB (Lewisburg, WV) 

JST (Johnstown, PA) and SHD (Staunton/Shenandoah Valley, VA)

Both of these could be combined into one route.

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So when I look at the renderings I have 2 immediate thoughts:

  1. Man I really wish they'd made this a new terminal with ticket counters and security
  2. That hike all the way to the end will suck!  That even LOOKS really far just in the rendering.  I know there won't really be people connecting from the end of the A expansion to E but could you imagine doing that?
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1 hour ago, allthingsplanes said:

So when I look at the renderings I have 2 immediate thoughts:

  1. Man I really wish they'd made this a new terminal with ticket counters and security
  2. That hike all the way to the end will suck!  That even LOOKS really far just in the rendering.  I know there won't really be people connecting from the end of the A expansion to E but could you imagine doing that?

Definitely agree on ticket counters and security for the new A expansion. Just got another reminder today with the long security lines (thank god for TSA Pre). Though, hopefully some of that is alleviated once the Terminal expansion is completed. 

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2 hours ago, CltFlyer said:

My fiancee came through CLT and the Centurion Lounge yesterday.  She states they had proper plating and their regular breakfast (eggs, sausage, etc..) back.  Fortunately, this situation must have only been temporary.

Notice that the new rendering is from the opposite angle.  I would think it's highly likely we get another Starbucks with this expansion.

 

On another note.  The Dunkin Donuts in the atrium opened last week.

I would assume depending on what gets approved that they would combine some of these similar to Beckley and Parkersburg.

 

CKB (Clarksburg, WV) and LWB (Lewisburg, WV) 

JST (Johnstown, PA) and SHD (Staunton/Shenandoah Valley, VA)

Both of these could be combined into one route.

I flew on the PKB flight a few times; once Beckley wasn't open and it was amazing, maybe like 45 minutes, with like 10 people on a 30-seat layout which already has an enormous amount of space (because it's a 50-seater with only 30 seats installed). When it stops at Beckley, not quite as good, but they are still way better than the previous EAS providers (although EAS seems mostly unnecessary for places like that where you are only a few hours from a true hub). 

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2 hours ago, wilmore said:

(although EAS seems mostly unnecessary for places like that where you are only a few hours from a true hub). 

:offtopic: and it is, by far, the most heavily subsidised form of transportation. Essential air service makes the per rider subsidies paid for Gold Line passengers look like a rounding error.

Edited by kermit
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20 hours ago, kermit said:

:offtopic: and it is, by far, the most heavily subsidised form of transportation. Essential air service makes the per rider subsidies paid for Gold Line passengers look like a rounding error.

Honestly the only communities that deserve EAS today are Alaskan bush communities, and possibly some of the more rural communities in the Mountain West. Shenandoah Valley Airport is less than an hour away from Charlottesville Airport, and is less than two hours away from Richmond Airport, Dulles, Lynchburg Airport, and Roanoke Airport, all of which have plentiful service. The program is ridiculous to me, especially once one considers the hypocrisy of it all, as the proponents of the program usually fight tooth and nail against any form of public transit funding in urban communities. 

23 hours ago, HopHead said:

Definitely agree on ticket counters and security for the new A expansion. Just got another reminder today with the long security lines (thank god for TSA Pre). Though, hopefully some of that is alleviated once the Terminal expansion is completed. 

Recall that there are/were plans to build a dedicated terminal headhouse containing a dedicated ticketing, baggage claim, and TSA screening facility for the Concourse A expansion. I'm not sure if the headhouse was deleted from the airport master plan, but renderings were drafted and alternatives were selected, as seen below. Unfortunately I haven't seen plans for said facility in any recent document, however. 

Ticketing Level, with island-style check-in rows in purple, and the TSA screening area in the middle:

 

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Baggage Claim/Arrivals Level:

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The images were from a master plan document circa 2018 or so that I can no longer find.

Edited by LKN704
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11 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

Recall that there are/were plans to build a dedicated terminal headhouse containing a dedicated ticketing, baggage claim, and TSA screening facility for the Concourse A expansion. I'm not sure if the headhouse was deleted from the airport master plan, but renderings were drafted and alternatives were selected, as seen below. Unfortunately I haven't seen plans for said facility in any recent document, however.

Its a shame, a new headhouse for A _might_ have made it feasible to run the Silver Line directly to that terminal. While this would have technically satisfied the folks who want to avoid the people mover transfer, it would have created a very long walk for anyone flying on AA going to or from the rail. IMO the people mover option from Wilkinson is fine.

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On 5/17/2022 at 10:46 AM, allthingsplanes said:

So when I look at the renderings I have 2 immediate thoughts:

  1. Man I really wish they'd made this a new terminal with ticket counters and security
  2. That hike all the way to the end will suck!  That even LOOKS really far just in the rendering.  I know there won't really be people connecting from the end of the A expansion to E but could you imagine doing that?

So you're telling me it's time for an underground airport tram? Sign me up :tw_glasses:

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14 minutes ago, TCLT said:


You can’t do that because the concourses are airside (behind security) and the silver line station, parking decks, hotel, and terminal lobby are landslide. You’d need two separate tram systems.

Could you not either run one tram with two modes? One car is "dirty" (before security) and only opens at the main terminal on the insecure side, the other car is "clean" (post-TSA) and opens at all stops. The Silver Line Airport Station has two stops, an unload stop on the dirty side for both cars. The (empty) cars then move forward to a load position where there is a clean side and a dirty side. The dirty side will only open on the dirty side of the Main Terminal. The clean side will open at all terminals and feed through to the clean side of the main terminal. I realize there are some logistics challenges but I don't think any are insurmountable.

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1 hour ago, davidclt said:
Could you not either run one tram with two modes? One car is "dirty" (before security) and only opens at the main terminal on the insecure side, the other car is "clean" (post-TSA) and opens at all stops. The Silver Line Airport Station has two stops, an unload stop on the dirty side for both cars. The (empty) cars then move forward to a load position where there is a clean side and a dirty side. The dirty side will only open on the dirty side of the Main Terminal. The clean side will open at all terminals and feed through to the clean side of the main terminal. I realize there are some logistics challenges but I don't think any are insurmountable.


I suppose anything is doable given enough money but it’ll never happen. Charlotte is never building a light rail station that can accommodate a TSA checkpoint comfortably and efficiently. You basically need another terminal lobby with airline check in desks, baggage transfer systems, checkpoints, and screening equipment and room to process all the passengers. Makes zero sense to spend money, land, and labor on, especially when the concourse layout isn’t particularly feasible for a tram loop which itself would be monumentally expensive. There wouldn’t be enough passenger traffic to justify it anyway.

edit: One other point is that far, far more local passengers will continue to drive to the airport rather than take the light rail. Those folks would need to get between the terminal and parking lots/decks that will be between the silver line station and the terminal. So a sterile train from the station would be excluding the biggest users of the system. 

Edited by TCLT
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Regarding the construction of an airside system, I highly doubt that the terminal roof could support an APM system and tunneling wouldn't be an option under the current terminal layout, so realistically the only option for an airside APM system would be to construct tracks directly parallel to the concourses using elevated guideways, similar to how DFW constructed their SkyLink in the mid 2000s. The cost would be enormous, and coming from an airport that is dirt cheap, there is no way they would construct such a system unless AA put up the money themselves.

That said, an airside APM system is quite unnecessary given the current layout IMO. The walk from B to E (or even A to E) isn't that far, and there are ample moving walkways. This contrasts to DFW where the individual terminals are spaced quite far apart (and often separated by roadways) and walking isn't feasible. 

That said, AA constructed an APM system at their Miami hub in the mid 2000s, and the longest walk within the D Concourse (where the APM runs) is significantly shorter than the longest walk at CLT. Then again, MIA a different type of hub with a different type of yield (more premium) than CLT, and their APM system is also used to bring arriving international passengers to the FIS area, as each station has a sterile (departing pax/arriving domestic pax) and non-sterile (arriving international pax) area, and a car of each train is dedicated to arriving international passengers. 

Regarding the people mover to the Silver Line...it is what it is at this point. Rapid transit that feeds directly into the terminal infrastructure is still somewhat rare within North America, and the APM rail-links are quite common. 

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22 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

That said, an airside APM system is quite unnecessary given the current layout IMO. The walk from B to E (or even A to E) isn't that far, and there are ample moving walkways. This contrasts to DFW where the individual terminals are spaced quite far apart (and often separated by roadways) and walking isn't feasible. 

(when the moving walkways are actually working)

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4 hours ago, davidclt said:

If the automated people-mover with 3-minute frequencies were to serve all terminals (making that A-E connection not a nightmare. . . I'd be on board with it. Of course in true (Jerry Orr) CLT and Charlotte fashion, we'll do the bare minimum. 

I'd also add in true "US Airways doing business as American Airlines fashion." Connections 100% benefit one single tenant of the airport... American. They are highly consulted on capital planning and projects at CLT and of course very concerned about their cost-per-enplanement measurements. If they wanted a people mover between concourses to improve the passenger experience or prevent people missing connections... it would happen.

In reality, the vast majority of people make their connection just fine walking and we aren't a premium connecting airport for AA.... so they consider this experience just fine.  The conversation between the airport and AA goes like this:
CLT: "We want to get a people mover built to improve the connecting experience at CLT for passengers. It'll cost $X and we'll need to increase your airport use fees to $Y per flight." 
AA: "We aren't increasing out operating costs at CLT and we already have data that 98% of our passengers make their connection on time or the inbound flight is so chronically delayed a people mover wouldn't have helped. We aren't going to be able to recover those fees with higher airfare because we have to sell CLT as a cheaper connecting alternative to Florida over a nonstop."
CLT: "But we think it would be nice for customers."
AA: "Well we don't and it is our customers connecting. We'll reduce flying to CLT if you impact economics."
CLT: "OK, we won't"

AA isn't asking for a people mover... so the airport isn't building a people mover. 

A people mover from the parking lots to the terminal headhouse though... easier to finance since it isn't funded by airlines and they can recover the cost through more parking fees and reducing operating costs long term of getting rid of shuttles + drivers. The people mover also helps airport parking stay competitive against off-airport parking providers, Uber, et... that all compete with parking revenue for the airport. 

Edited by CLT2014
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Wasn't a new island terminal on the long range plans? Wouldn't an airside people mover be required for that these days?

That would be a single straight run underground from (probably) the atrium to the satellite concourse. Not linking all of the existing concourses.
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^^^It would cheaper but is not needed.  who comes in on one of American commuter partners and then flies out on Delta, Southwest etc.   If the international terminal is moved that way then yes we would need a way to move people.  I think that is a long term plan for another set of A gates but maybe I am wrong. 

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All I know is that the few times I have flown from NYC to CLT and then to Wilmington, NC, I have had to hoof it from B or C to the entire end of E, and it is incredible exhausting. It's so tight moving from the main atrium on my way towards D & E, and then a massive traffic crunch at the escalators down to E. I'm luck in that I can walk fast, but whew...people stare at me afterwards bc I am drying off the sweat. 

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I think the larger issue is the lack of circulation space and the congested corridors that, coupled with the low ceilings, give the allusion of a greater distance.

FWIW, I had a transfer in early 2020 at the then brand-new Istanbul Airport, which has the largest terminal in the world. The terminal layout somewhat reminds me of that of Charlotte.  Anyways, there are no trams, shuttles, or people movers at the airport...only moving walkways connecting each of the concourses. But because the terminal is so airy and spacious, and because I wasn't sent down a crowded corridor with people who act like they have never walked in public before (see CLT Concourse B and C), distances really didn't seem to be a problem. 

Edited by LKN704
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