Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[LKN704]

I'm excited for the new overlook. While I can't figure out where the are going to place it, I am guessing they will just push it back to the west, closer to 18R/36L. 

In other news, the Admirals Club will be reopening soon on Concourse C. In addition to an upgrade of the fire suppression system (odd that it is different than the rest of the terminal), it got new carpeting and "reupholstered" furniture (guessing it will be the same US Airways furniture dating to the 1990s, just new fabric). Kind of disgraceful, IMO. 

I've found AA's clubroom product to be the worst compared to DL/UA/AS...in every way, from their food+beverage offering, to the their cheap Big Lots-inspired antiseptic/sterile furniture and design. 

[jordan704]

AA Club opening Friday 24th

[LKN704]

AA is ending CLT-AEX (Alexandria, LA) service, and CLT-ELP service is "indefinitely" suspended. 

They also announced that three stations would be closing: Toledo, Islip/Long Island, and Ithaca. All three stations were exclusively served by 50-seat ERJ aircraft operated by Envoy and/or Piedmont. AA just announced a huge compensation increase for Envoy and Piedmont pilots (the subsidiary carriers that served these markets) that will see entry level First Officers make at least $90/hour.  While I am glad to see higher wages within the industry, the increase in pay will further reduce the value proposition of the ERJ, which were already the least fuel efficient planes in the AA system. That, coupled with the low-profitability of these smaller markets, the pilot shortage in the industry, and fuel prices/the economy, will likely lead to a big shakeup of airline's regional networks. 

IMO, Greenville (PGV) and Florence (FLO) are both prime for the chopping block next.

PGV is less than 90 minutes away from RDU, and less than an hour away from New Bern, both of which feature more frequent air service. Having a major university is no longer the saving grace needed to maintain community air service it once was. FLO is less than 90 minutes away from airports in Fayetteville, Columbia, and Myrtle Beach. 

I would also view the CLT-Huntington, WV (HTS) route as at risk of being cut. 

All above cities are only served twice-daily at present on an ERJ. Once you factor in the costs of everything, including the costs of keeping a station open for just two measly flights a day, I can't imagine the services are profitable. 

If my predictions come true, the Carolinas won't be hit that bad but boy Texas will. AA serves several small Texas communities (some that are rather obscure...Wichita Falls, anyone?) that are within a close drive to other major airports. 

[LKN704]

2 hours ago, LKN704 said:

AA is ending CLT-AEX (Alexandria, LA) service, and CLT-ELP service is "indefinitely" suspended. 

They also announced that three stations would be closing: Toledo, Islip/Long Island, and Ithaca. All three stations were exclusively served by 50-seat ERJ aircraft operated by Envoy and/or Piedmont. AA just announced a huge compensation increase for Envoy and Piedmont pilots (the subsidiary carriers that served these markets) that will see entry level First Officers make at least $90/hour.  While I am glad to see higher wages within the industry, the increase in pay will further reduce the value proposition of the ERJ, which were already the least fuel efficient planes in the AA system. That, coupled with the low-profitability of these smaller markets, the pilot shortage in the industry, and fuel prices/the economy, will likely lead to a big shakeup of airline's regional networks. 

IMO, Greenville (PGV) and Florence (FLO) are both prime for the chopping block next.

PGV is less than 90 minutes away from RDU, and less than an hour away from New Bern, both of which feature more frequent air service. Having a major university is no longer the saving grace needed to maintain community air service it once was. FLO is less than 90 minutes away from airports in Fayetteville, Columbia, and Myrtle Beach. 

I would also view the CLT-Huntington, WV (HTS) route as at risk of being cut. 

All above cities are only served twice-daily at present on an ERJ. Once you factor in the costs of everything, including the costs of keeping a station open for just two measly flights a day, I can't imagine the services are profitable. 

If my predictions come true, the Carolinas won't be hit that bad but boy Texas will. AA serves several small Texas communities (some that are rather obscure...Wichita Falls, anyone?) that are within a close drive to other major airports. 

Hate to double post, but AA is also resuming CLT-San Jose (CA) this October as a seasonal service, timed to connect with the Caribbean departure/arrival bank. I believe San Jose last ran in 2019. 

CLT will now have service to 6 Californian cities, with the only notable one missing being Santa Ana/Orange. 

[KJHburg]

4 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Hate to double post, but AA is also resuming CLT-San Jose (CA) this October as a seasonal service, timed to connect with the Caribbean departure/arrival bank. I believe San Jose last ran in 2019. 

CLT will now have service to 6 Californian cities, with the only notable one missing being Santa Ana/Orange. 

thats great and I sure wish we would get nonstop to John Wayne Orange County but I hear it is very limited flight allocations there.   Thats my favorite airport in SoCal. 

[LKN704]

51 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

thats great and I sure wish we would get nonstop to John Wayne Orange County but I hear it is very limited flight allocations there.   Thats my favorite airport in SoCal. 

Yes, although unfortunately Santa Ana has a number of things that essentially preclude Charlotte service from ever occurring.

The runway is short, so the flight would have to be flown on a 738, or AA's enhanced A319s with winglets and better short-field performance. The airport has quite possibly the worst case of NIMBYism* in the world surrounding it, and there are very strict rules that airlines have to agree to abide by, both in terms of flight operations and flight scheduling. They wouldn't be able to run redeyes back to Charlotte from SNA, and the departure from CLT would have to be before 7PM to ensure the flight arrive well before the curfew. The airport is also slot controlled, so even if AA wanted to add a hypothetical CLT-SNA flight, they would need to have a slot for it. 

It's a shame, because most Santa Ana routes are extremely high-yielding and lucrative (AA offers a full 3 class Flagship service on their JFK-SNA route) and CLT-SNA would probably do well. 

*It's so bad that AA actually has a clause about SNA in their Customer Service plan:

"Orange County/John Wayne Airport in Santa Ana, California, has a curfew for inbound flights of 11 p.m. due to noise restrictions. If we are aware that headwinds will be particularly strong enroute and will impact the flight's arrival time, perhaps making the flight arrive too late to land at Orange County, an announcement will be made that it is possible that the flight will land at Los Angeles International Airport instead. In the event a diversion decision occurs after the aircraft has departed, the in-flight crew will inform you."

[videtur quam contuor]

Burbank Airport has even shorter hours of 7 am-10 pm. It was owned by Lockheed when I lived in Burbank in the 1970's and used for their aircraft testing as well as commercial service. The L-1011 was designed in the Burbank area and came together in the airport there. I knew someone at the time who worked on the 1011. A beauty of a plane.

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/news/features/history/l-1011.html

[CltFlyer]

12 hours ago, LKN704 said:

IMO, Greenville (PGV) and Florence (FLO) are both prime for the chopping block next.

PGV is less than 90 minutes away from RDU, and less than an hour away from New Bern, both of which feature more frequent air service. Having a major university is no longer the saving grace needed to maintain community air service it once was. FLO is less than 90 minutes away from airports in Fayetteville, Columbia, and Myrtle Beach. 

It is possible Florence, SC is cut, but it actually just got upgraded to CRJ-700s beginning in the September schedule update.  

Also note worthy this weekend, lots of mainline adds in October.  GSO is seeing 4x daily mainline.  6 out of 7 flights to ILM (Wilmington,  NC) are on mainline.  GSP (Greenville/Spartanburg) sees 2x mainline.  The first time its seen mainline in a long time.  AVL (Asheville) also remains at 2 daily mainline.  

[KJHburg]

Lufthansa flight today landing from Munich.  My brother and his family of 4 were on this flight inbound.  Outbound flight back to Munich my niece and 29 other teenagers from Kannapolis are going on an European trip starting in Munich and heading to a couple countries.   2nd photo of the new ATC tower. 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by KJHburg

[JRCLT]

Best overlook spot? Like 14+ airplanes in line to take off runway 18C/36C in the first two. Couldn’t get all of them. Fourth picture is the diagonal 5/23 runway looking down it toward the airport terminal the picture doesn’t do it justice. It is so cool.








Also just to add on some more. I haven’t noticed any other color than blue except tonight. Last one is the most accurate to reality in color except it is actually dimmer:






I wonder if it lit up like this for Memorial Day.

[a2theb]

Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet but I have heard from a pretty reliable source that we will be getting a Flagship First Lounge in the near future. I have no other details other than that unfortunately.

Edited June 22, 2022 by a2theb

[a2theb]

On 6/19/2022 at 6:54 PM, LKN704 said:

 

It's a shame, because most Santa Ana routes are extremely high-yielding and lucrative (AA offers a full 3 class Flagship service on their JFK-SNA route) and CLT-SNA would probably do well. 

 

Apologies for the double post but the full 3 class service is explicitly for the entertainment industry and AA has been looking at reducing the first class capacity on the A321T from 8 to  6. They also have very limited flexibility within the route and to scale it due to their 3 class domestic fleet size. 

 

CLT > SNA may do well but there is absolutely not way we would get it the current JFK-SNA configuration. 

[LKN704]

1 hour ago, a2theb said:

Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet but I heard from a pretty reliable source that we will be getting a Flagship First Lounge in the near future. I have no other details other than that unfortunately.

While that would be most welcome, I would find that to be highly unlikely. AA management has repeatedly said that they have no plans for a Flagship Lounge in Charlotte. CLT has only four year-round, qualifying "International Flagship Service" flights, and I cannot see AA making that big of an investment into CLT, especially where (AFAIK) there is nowhere to put the lounge, and the lounge would likely have to be constructed as a terminal addition/expansion, which would be pricey. For comparison, United's new Polaris Lounge in Washington cost $41 million to construct as a terminal addition. 

Philadelphia, which has more premium, long-haul traffic, still has yet to receive a Flagship Lounge. 

1 hour ago, a2theb said:

Apologies for the double post but the full 3 class service is explicitly for the entertainment industry and AA has been looking at reducing the first class capacity on the A321T from 8 to  6. They also have very limited flexibility within the route and to scale it due to their 3 class domestic fleet size. 

 

CLT > SNA may do well but there is absolutely not way we would get it the current JFK-SNA configuration. 

I didn't say/suggest that we would ever get the A321T, just that a hypothetical CLT-SNA would probably do well. The rotation of the A321T onto JFK-SNA (and BOS-LAX for that matter) isn't about First Class, but rather getting lie-flat seats into those markets. AA has no other narrowbody aircraft at present with lie-flat seats. 

Granted, I am not on the inside, but everything I have seen publicly suggests that AA will likely get rid of the A321T product entirely. IIRC, most entertainment contracts no longer explicitly state First Class but rather lie-flat seating. It's highly likely that AA will deploy their new A321XLRs (with lie flat seats in Business) onto premium transcon routes in the coming years, and reconfigure the A321T into the standard, domestic configuration. 

[TCLT]

3 hours ago, a2theb said:

Apologies for the double post but the full 3 class service is explicitly for the entertainment industry and AA has been looking at reducing the first class capacity on the A321T from 8 to  6. They also have very limited flexibility within the route and to scale it due to their 3 class domestic fleet size. 

The A321T has 10 first class seat. Here's the layout. There's also no plans to reduce the first class cabin to anything but zero as LKN704 describes.

 

1 hour ago, LKN704 said:

Granted, I am not on the inside, but everything I have seen publicly suggests that AA will likely get rid of the A321T product entirely. IIRC, most entertainment contracts no longer explicitly state First Class but rather lie-flat seating. It's highly likely that AA will deploy their new A321XLRs (with lie flat seats in Business) onto premium transcon routes in the coming years, and reconfigure the A321T into the standard, domestic configuration. 

 

[a2theb]

2 hours ago, LKN704 said:

While that would be most welcome, I would find that to be highly unlikely. AA management has repeatedly said that they have no plans for a Flagship Lounge in Charlotte. CLT has only four year-round, qualifying "International Flagship Service" flights, and I cannot see AA making that big of an investment into CLT, especially where (AFAIK) there is nowhere to put the lounge, and the lounge would likely have to be constructed as a terminal addition/expansion, which would be pricey. For comparison, United's new Polaris Lounge in Washington cost $41 million to construct as a terminal addition. 

Philadelphia, which has more premium, long-haul traffic, still has yet to receive a Flagship Lounge. 

I didn't say/suggest that we would ever get the A321T, just that a hypothetical CLT-SNA would probably do well. The rotation of the A321T onto JFK-SNA (and BOS-LAX for that matter) isn't about First Class, but rather getting lie-flat seats into those markets. AA has no other narrowbody aircraft at present with lie-flat seats. 

Granted, I am not on the inside, but everything I have seen publicly suggests that AA will likely get rid of the A321T product entirely. IIRC, most entertainment contracts no longer explicitly state First Class but rather lie-flat seating. It's highly likely that AA will deploy their new A321XLRs (with lie flat seats in Business) onto premium transcon routes in the coming years, and reconfigure the A321T into the standard, domestic configuration. 

I guess time will tell re: FF at Charlotte

 

In terms of the A321T product I definitely think they will be phased out for the XLR in due time. Just becomes an exercise in moving around metal to meet demand as more join the fleet.

[xapostrophe]

On 6/22/2022 at 1:02 PM, a2theb said:

I guess time will tell re: FF at Charlotte

 

In terms of the A321T product I definitely think they will be phased out for the XLR in due time. Just becomes an exercise in moving around metal to meet demand as more join the fleet.

The t would require MAJOR changes to the airframe to make the cabin "normal" with the rest of the fleet, not just moving seats around etc.

 

I'm not sure we'd do that.  Plus in my operational experience the seats are mostly full.

[Miesian Corners]

On 6/22/2022 at 8:47 AM, a2theb said:

Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet but I have heard from a pretty reliable source that we will be getting a Flagship First Lounge in the near future. I have no other details other than that unfortunately.

All I know for certain is that C/D club will close - AGAIN - next year for a complete overhaul (I was told the space would be completely reconfigured and that showers would be added).

Can we just stop for a minute and make note of the only reason the club closed this time is because it failed its fire safety inspection. The space was built in 1999...in an airport surrounded by airplanes and trucks and tugs that all use petroleum...WITHOUT A SPRINKLER SYSTEM!!! How does something like that occur? Seriously!

It's also been hinted that once Delta moves into its new space, A concourse will get a small club. The airline's true pain point, the endless confusing cluster that is E, will still be without a club, relying only on the C/D space.

[LKN704]

1 hour ago, Miesian Corners said:

All I know for certain is that C/D club will close - AGAIN - next year for a complete overhaul (I was told the space would be completely reconfigured and that showers would be added).

Can we just stop for a minute and make note of the only reason the club closed this time is because it failed its fire safety inspection. The space was built in 1999...in an airport surrounded by airplanes and trucks and tugs that all use petroleum...WITHOUT A SPRINKLER SYSTEM!!! How does something like that occur? Seriously!

It's also been hinted that once Delta moves into its new space, A concourse will get a small club. The airline's true pain point, the endless confusing cluster that is E, will still be without a club, relying only on the C/D space.

I also remember that the C/D club used to have a relatively large smoking room that closed in the mid 2010s IIRC...shocking to me that there were no sprinklers, but I wonder if club rooms received some type of exemption because they are non-public spaces. 

I think the Delta club is a given at this point seeing as CLT released renderings of the new concourse a couple months ago that showed a Delta lounge in the mezzanine level. 

[CltFlyer]

21 hours ago, Miesian Corners said:

All I know for certain is that C/D club will close - AGAIN - next year for a complete overhaul (I was told the space would be completely reconfigured and that showers would be added).

Can we just stop for a minute and make note of the only reason the club closed this time is because it failed its fire safety inspection. The space was built in 1999...in an airport surrounded by airplanes and trucks and tugs that all use petroleum...WITHOUT A SPRINKLER SYSTEM!!! How does something like that occur? Seriously!

It's also been hinted that once Delta moves into its new space, A concourse will get a small club. The airline's true pain point, the endless confusing cluster that is E, will still be without a club, relying only on the C/D space.

I imagine AA is feeling the pressure from the Centurion Lounge and The Club CLT which both have showers.

It could be a full fledged Flagship Lounge, but it could also just be an Admiral Club with showers (Miami and LAX have regular Admirals Clubs with showers)

I couldn't see them leaving CLT with no central Admirals Club.  I do have a bit of a hypothetical (wishful) idea.  They could completely re-do the mezzanine above the atrium.  Include a central  Admirals Club with large glass windows overlooking the atrium and a re-done USO lounge.

Turn the C/D lounge into a Flagship Lounge, and add a Admirals Club to both the B and C extensions.

This would give us 5 Admirals Club (including the hypothetical aforementioned one on A concourse) as well as a Flagship lounge.

 

Edit*-  I have no sources for this theory.  It's just something I've thought up.  Any insight would be appreciated.

Edited June 27, 2022 by CltFlyer

[LKN704]

1 hour ago, CltFlyer said:

I imagine AA is feeling the pressure from the Centurion Lounge and The Club CLT which both have showers.

It could be a full fledged Flagship Lounge, but it could also just be an Admiral Club with showers (Miami and LAX have regular Admirals Clubs with showers)

I couldn't see them leaving CLT with no central Admirals Club.  I do have a bit of a hypothetical (wishful) idea.  They could completely re-do the mezzanine above the atrium.  Include a central  Admirals Club with large glass windows overlooking the atrium and a re-done USO lounge.

Turn the C/D lounge into a Flagship Lounge, and add a Admirals Club to both the B and C extensions.

This would give us 5 Admirals Club (including the hypothetical aforementioned one on A concourse) as well as a Flagship lounge.

 

Edit*-  I have no sources for this theory.  It's just something I've thought up.  Any insight would be appreciated.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see new clubs eventually opened in the B/C stingers, likely on some type of mezzanine level akin to the A North gates. They could then close the small, cramped lounge on the B Concourse. 

I doubt it would be a full fledged Flagship Lounge...a standard club with showers is more likely. In any case, airlines are generally moving in the direction of incorporating showers into their clubrooms at their hubs and larger cities. Delta has showers in their Miami lounge, for example, and AA has showers at their SFO lounge...their SFO lounge is probably the nicest IMO in the entire AA system. In addition to those you mentioned, AA also has showers in select clubs in ORD/DFW/JFK, as well as their international Admirals Clubs in Europe and South America. 

[BarrenLucidity]

17 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see new clubs eventually opened in the B/C stingers, likely on some type of mezzanine level akin to the A North gates. They could then close the small, cramped lounge on the B Concourse. 

I doubt it would be a full fledged Flagship Lounge...a standard club with showers is more likely. In any case, airlines are generally moving in the direction of incorporating showers into their clubrooms at their hubs and larger cities. Delta has showers in their Miami lounge, for example, and AA has showers at their SFO lounge...their SFO lounge is probably the nicest IMO in the entire AA system. In addition to those you mentioned, AA also has showers in select clubs in ORD/DFW/JFK, as well as their international Admirals Clubs in Europe and South America. 

Yeah, Terminal 2 at SFO is very nice. The lounge is only a few months old, feels fairly spacious for the number of flights, and it's close to the gates. You step outside and you might have a 5 minute walk. 

[49er]

I know I've seen a master plan in the past that depicts a new terminal building . This relatively new document references decommissioning runway 5/23 and building a 4,000' long tunnel. I wonder if this is laying the groundwork for a new international terminal in the midfield? The gray box on the map kinda looks like a terminal. 

https://www.airportprojects.net/clt-capacity-ea/wp-content/uploads/sites/38/2022/03/CLT-Capacity-Enhancement-Projects-EA-FONSI-ROD.pdf

Map showing tunnel: 

relocation of the triturator building into the existing terminal building; the decommissioning of Runway 5/23 and associated taxiways; construction of a 665,000 square foot hold pad at Runway 18L end; demolition and/or replacement of several buildings (see EA, Section 1.2); relocation of approximately 2,500 feet of Yorkmont Road; construction of crossfield taxilanes and taxiways and to provide landside access to relocated buildings; construction of a 4,000-foot long midfield access tunnel; and construction of a 20,000 square foot Federal Inspection Services (FIS) corridor between Concourse D and Concourse C.

 

[TCLT]

I know I've seen a master plan in the past that depicts a new terminal building . This relatively new document references decommissioning runway 5/23 and building a 4,000' long tunnel. I wonder if this is laying the groundwork for a new international terminal in the midfield? The gray box on the map kinda looks like a terminal. 
https://www.airportprojects.net/clt-capacity-ea/wp-content/uploads/sites/38/2022/03/CLT-Capacity-Enhancement-Projects-EA-FONSI-ROD.pdf
Map showing tunnel: 
relocation of the triturator building into the existing terminal building; the decommissioning of Runway 5/23 and associated taxiways; construction of a 665,000 square foot hold pad at Runway 18L end; demolition and/or replacement of several buildings (see EA, Section 1.2); relocation of approximately 2,500 feet of Yorkmont Road; construction of crossfield taxilanes and taxiways and to provide landside access to relocated buildings; construction of a 4,000-foot long midfield access tunnel; and construction of a 20,000 square foot Federal Inspection Services (FIS) corridor between Concourse D and Concourse C.
 

That gray box is to be for a new satellite regional concourse to replace E which could then be rebuilt to add additional standard mainline gates or potentially a new international concourse with widebody capable gates to replace D.

[CLT2014]

Is the video artwork in A North broken or just turned off? I haven't seen it on for my last three visits to the airport over two months.

[LKN704]

21 hours ago, TCLT said:

replace E which could then be rebuilt to add additional standard mainline gates or potentially a new international concourse with widebody capable gates to replace D.

Once E is demolished, the land will then simply transition into a hardstand space. No concourse or gates will be built over the former E footprint, with the exception of 3-5 international gates to the North of D, near where the escalators are currently. Keep in mind that several gates on the C Concourse will eventually be able to handle international arrivals once the sterile FIS corridor is built. 

Here is an overview of the master plan, circa 2035: