Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[LKN704]

AA is discontinuing CLT-Jackson Hole, WY in favor of starting Miami-Jackson Hole service this winter, leaving CLT without service to any Western ski destinations. 

On the one hand, I find it interesting that a hub the size + strength of CLT cannot seem to support seasonal service to any of the great resorts of the West in the winter, but after thinking about it for a while, I guess it makes sense. 

The skiing holiday industry is probably the most privileged type of vacation, because at the end of the day, skiing is still largely a rich white person activity. Once you factor in the cost of the flights (which often only run on Saturdays, forcing you to take a whole week off of work, and often run significantly more expensive than other flights to vacation spots), plus the ridiculous cost of lift tickets (one-day lift ticket at Vail last season was $239, although there are a variety of discounts so I doubt people pay that price), accommodations (often greater than $5000/week in Vail), and food/beverages/ground transport, you are easily looking at something in the range of $13,000-15,000/week for a family of four, and the majority of people that can spend that type of money are centered in the Northeast Corridor, Miami, SF, and LA. 

US used to fly CLT-Vail, and AA attempted flights from CLT to Montrose/Telluride for a couple seasons. I also noticed that CLT's summer seasonal service to Glacier Park/Kalispell and Bozeman have both been discontinued. I guess the great pandemic rush that fueled travel to those destinations has tapered off. 

1 hour ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Airbus A380 is a massive plane.  Does CLT have the Space/double deck type Ramps to service such a plane or the Runway Lengths to accommodate T & L?  Not sure if CLT has the International Destinations or Originating Traffic that require such a plane - Just curious…

The A380 has incredible runway performance for its size, thanks to engine performance and huge wings...several European airports have regular A380 service that feature shorter runways than CLT. 

Most major airports would be capable of handling say an A380 diversion, as runway performance isn't the issue when it comes to the A380, instead the issue usually comes from clearances between runway/taxiways, parking position space, terminal hold room space, jetbridge capability, etc. 

CLT doesn't have any A380 designed gates capable of boarding/disembarkation from both decks, and I don't think the plane would fit into CLT's current gate layout. 

Even large-scale international airports had to make modifications to prepare for A380 service...Dulles had to reconfigure taxiway lights, etc. Catering facilities also had to ensure they had catering trucks that could reach the doors on the upper-deck. 

Regardless, CLT does not have the international traffic or yield to support A380 service. 

Edited July 11, 2022 by LKN704

[CLT2014]

1 hour ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Airbus A380 is a massive plane.  Does CLT have the Space/double deck type Ramps to service such a plane or the Runway Lengths to accommodate T & L?  Not sure if CLT has the International Destinations or Originating Traffic that require such a plane - Just curious…

I think CLT would be able to handle the A380 for T&L. Boston's longest runway is similar to CLT at 10,083 feet and they used to have regular A380 service. CLT has also seen the Antonov An-225 aircraft take off and land here for cargo and it is much larger than an A380.

The problem would be on the ground though. I don't think taxiways are optimized for the A380's massive wingspan to pull up to a gate at Concourse D. Probably three current gates would be required for just one plane. We also don't have dual jet bridges at any of the gates on D that could support an A380.

CLT was ultimately wise to not invest in supporting the A380. There are no new orders for the aircraft, so eventually they will all be fully retired. The following airlines have retired or plan to fully retire their A380 fleet within 5 years: Air France, Korean Air, China Southern , Malaysia, Qatar, Asiana, Thai. 

Operators remaining after 2026: Singapore, Emirates (keeping until 2035, then retiring), Qantas, British,  All Nippon, Lufthansa

[CLT2014]

9 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

AA is discontinuing CLT-Jackson Hole, WY in favor of starting Miami-Jackson Hole service this winter, leaving CLT without service to any Western ski destinations. 

On the one hand, I find it interesting that a hub the size + strength of CLT cannot seem to support seasonal service to any of the great resorts of the West in the winter, but after thinking about it for a while, I guess it makes sense. 

The skiing holiday industry is probably the most privileged type of vacation, because at the end of the day, skiing is still largely a rich white person activity. Once you factor in the cost of the flights (which often only run on Saturdays, forcing you to take a whole week off of work, and often run significantly more expensive than other flights to vacation spots), plus the ridiculous cost of lift tickets (one-day lift ticket at Vail last season was $239, although there are a variety of discounts so I doubt people pay that price), accommodations (often greater than $5000/week in Vail), and food/beverages/ground transport, you are easily looking at something in the range of $13,000-15,000/week for a family of four, and the majority of people that can spend that type of money are centered in the Northeast Corridor, Miami, SF, and LA. 

US used to fly CLT-Vail, and AA attempted flights from CLT to Montrose/Telluride for a couple seasons. I also noticed that CLT's summer seasonal service to Glacier Park/Kalispell and Bozeman have both been discontinued. I guess the great pandemic rush that fueled travel to those destinations has tapered off. 

Yeah I agree, American probably analyzed the data and realized they can connect the vast majority of the people that were connecting in CLT through a similar one-stop option through Chicago or Dallas-Fort Worth. Connections in Charlotte are  dominated by folks in Bahamas wear that arrived on a regional jet from Charleston, WV connecting to a flight to Fort Lauderdale to go on their $599 cruise deal, et... Might as well add another frequency for the cruise crowd at CLT and put the Jackson flight from a city with lots of rich people like Miami. 

Edited July 11, 2022 by CLT2014

[a2theb]

4 hours ago, LKN704 said:

AA is discontinuing CLT-Jackson Hole, WY in favor of starting Miami-Jackson Hole service this winter, leaving CLT without service to any Western ski destinations. 

 

 

I mean that's a bit misleading with once daily to SLC and whatever daily to Denver. Realistically, the demographic flowing through CLT is not headed to JAC, ASE, MTJ, etc. but going to the traditional I70 resorts (mostly) or something outside of Salt Lake (probably less so than Colorado). Would be interesting to see data on that.

 

Completely agree with you that direct service to any of the more upscale, western ski destinations is probably a tough sell from Charlotte due to the cost associated with said resorts.  

[LKN704]

1 hour ago, a2theb said:

I mean that's a bit misleading with once daily to SLC and whatever daily to Denver. Realistically, the demographic flowing through CLT is not headed to JAC, ASE, MTJ, etc. but going to the traditional I70 resorts (mostly) or something outside of Salt Lake (probably less so than Colorado). Would be interesting to see data on that.

 

Completely agree with you that direct service to any of the more upscale, western ski destinations is probably a tough sell from Charlotte due to the cost associated with said resorts.  

Personally, I don't really view Denver as a ski destination. Yes, there are decent mountains near Denver (Echo and Loveland...I actually preferred Loveland over Vail due to the lack of crowds), but they lack large-scale resort developments and I doubt people from the East Coast are flying to Denver just to ski at Loveland.  I-70 traffic is horrible, and that's not even accounting for winter weather. 

I'll concede and give you SLC given how close it is to Park City, Sundance, and Snowbird/Alta. 

That said,  more serious skiers avoid Vail Resort/Intrawest-type resorts as they are more focused on the "bling-bling" side of skiing and are heavily corporate, and I know a lot of locals near Vail/Intrawest resorts despise them for creating crowds, jacking up prices on both lift tickets and rentals, and both entities have been accused of adding more barriers to entry (socio-demographically speaking) to a sport that already lacks diversity. IIRC, a couple of years back Intrawest sniffed around Whiteface Lake Placid in NY (NYS has the only state run ski resorts in the country through their Olympic Development Authority) and NYS thankfully said no thanks. It's kinda sad because with climate change, a lot of smaller resorts may not survive if they continue to operate independently and aren't bought out. 

Way off topic and back to CLT, I'm not sure about Denver flights, but I am willing to bet that the Delta flight to SLC carries a decent amount of ski traffic in the winter time. They ran the route twice daily this past winter, and outside of their hubs, DC, and Florida, CLT seems to be one of their most stable SLC-East Coast routes. They dropped a bunch of Eastern markets from SLC within the past two years, and yet they recently up-gauged the CLT-SLC flight from a 737 to an A321. 

Edited July 11, 2022 by LKN704

[a2theb]

14 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Personally, I don't really view Denver as a ski destination. Yes, there are decent mountains near Denver (Echo and Loveland...I actually preferred Loveland over Vail due to the lack of crowds), but they lack large-scale resort developments and I doubt people from the East Coast are flying to Denver just to ski at Loveland.  I-70 traffic is horrible, and that's not even accounting for winter weather. 

I'll concede and give you SLC given how close it is to Park City, Sundance, and Snowbird/Alta. 

That said,  more serious skiers avoid Vail Resort/Intrawest-type resorts as they are more focused on the "bling-bling" side of skiing and are heavily corporate, and I know a lot of locals near Vail/Intrawest resorts despise them for creating crowds, jacking up prices on both lift tickets and rentals, and both entities have been accused of adding more barriers to entry (socio-demographically speaking) to a sport that already lacks diversity. IIRC, a couple of years back Intrawest sniffed around Whiteface Lake Placid in NY (NYS has the only state run ski resorts in the country through their Olympic Development Authority) and NYS thankfully said no thanks. It's kinda sad because with climate change, a lot of smaller resorts may not survive if they continue to operate independently and aren't bought out. 

Way off topic and back to CLT, I'm not sure about Denver flights, but I am willing to bet that the Delta flight to SLC carries a decent amount of ski traffic in the winter time. They ran the route twice daily this past winter, and outside of their hubs, DC, and Florida, CLT seems to be one of their most stable SLC-East Coast routes. They dropped a bunch of Eastern markets from SLC within the past two years, and yet they recently up-gauged the CLT-SLC flight from a 737 to an A321. 

I am with you on avoiding 70 and any resort associated with Vail or Intrawest, much prefer the cottonwood resorts to anything in CO but I think you are underestimating the amount of folks that ski/ride 2 weekends a year at Snowshoe/Beech/Sugar that flock to the Summit Country resorts for whatever reason. Certainly not my preferred destination  but there is definitely a draw through Charlotte. 

 

Back on topic, I flew through A North for the first time last week and was impressed with it. Great space, feels very open and flowy. Only complaint was with the morning sun it was pretty hot. Not end of E with a boatload of people hot, but close. 

[LKN704]

1 hour ago, a2theb said:

Only complaint was with the morning sun it was pretty hot. Not end of E with a boatload of people hot, but close. 

IIRC, A North is supposed to have auto-tinting glass to control sunlight and ambient temperature on the concourse. 

I’ve never noticed a temperature issue, so maybe it wasn’t active. 

[CltFlyer]

An update on the government funding from last week.

CLT did in fact apply for the government funding ($167 million for A North Part II expansion), but they did not receive it.

 

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article263379258.html

[Reverie39]

I know people from the East Coast who fly to Denver and rent a car to drive to Breckenridge. I figured that was pretty common, maybe not.

[allthingsplanes]

9 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

I know people from the East Coast who fly to Denver and rent a car to drive to Breckenridge. I figured that was pretty common, maybe not.

It is extremely common.  Yes, Denver is obviously a flight destination for most "common" people (ie. those who don't have an s ton of money) who are going out west to ski.  Rent a car and go up to Breckenridge, Keystone,  Copper Mountain, Steamboat Springs, Estes Park,  or even Vail and Beaver Creek.  I lived in Colorado for 3 years and drove up from Colorado Springs to those regularly.  Never once thought about trying to go to Aspen or anything further west.

[49er]

I've done the same Denver to Breck with a rental car. For a family of 4 it makes lots of sense and the drive is nice once you're out of Denver. 

[CLT2014]

21 minutes ago, 49er said:

I've done the same Denver to Breck with a rental car. For a family of 4 it makes lots of sense and the drive is nice once you're out of Denver. 

Denver has significantly more nonstop flights across the country too. I prefer a nonstop into DEN + driving up to the mountains versus worrying if my 1 hour flight delay means I'm going to have a ripple effect of connection nightmares, et. and end up stranded in Chicago, Dallas, Atlanta, et. in January. It is always nice to be on a nonstop flight where you flight delay just means you get to your destination a little later versus the people sitting next to you that are now missing connections and trying to find hotels overnight in a city they don't want to be in. 

For the 11 metros with nonstop service to EGE, totally get that's the preference, but for other metros (Boston, Washington DC, Triangle, Nashville, Indianapolis, Cleveland, Seattle, Portland, Detroit, Minneapolis, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Naples, et..)  I get weighing a DEN nonstop versus connecting into Vail/Eagle (where you are still 35 - 40 minutes from the ski resorts). 
 

Edited July 13, 2022 by CLT2014

[tozmervo]

A plane just passed really low over uptown, prompting me to check flight aware. Looks like they pulled out of landing at the last second. Runway drama. 

 

[xapostrophe]

19 hours ago, tozmervo said:

A plane just passed really low over uptown, prompting me to check flight aware. Looks like they pulled out of landing at the last second. Runway drama. 

 

Looks like a pretty standard go around.

[JRCLT]

Insta: @mattshdr

Seeing it come to life is really cool I really want to see it when it’s done. A completely different face…miles better than the hat was before.

[49er]

Great photo. CLT has been slacking a little on their construction updates. 

[LKN704]

That's a great photo, and the first image I've seen of the Lobby Expansion with the lights turned on.  As @49ersaid, it's kinda wild we have to rely on personal photographers for construction updates. 

I perused the CLT website, IG page, Twitter page, and Facebook page, and there are 0 recent construction updates or images to be seen, and their "Connections" construction update/newsletter hasn't been published since December 2020.

Yet on their social media accounts,  there are a plethora of pictures advertising that they have therapy dogs available in the terminal and that CLT has nonstop flights to Atlanta...who knew!!!

Maybe I'm crazy, but considering the spartan/barebones reputation CLT tends to have nationally, I would think they would want to showcase a genuine improvement they are working on. 

[Poo Diddy]

Does anyone know the tentative schedule on installing trusses for the roadway canopy?  Those things are massive and I'd sure love to see them being lifted into place.  I figure it's still a long way out but worth the ask.  Lord knows the last schedule I had eyes on is way out of date by now

[JRCLT]

Does anyone know the tentative schedule on installing trusses for the roadway canopy?  Those things are massive and I'd sure love to see them being lifted into place.  I figure it's still a long way out but worth the ask.  Lord knows the last schedule I had eyes on is way out of date by now

Those pillars in the foreground are just for that purpose! Now, not sure what they want to do during construction but I can logically think of two ways they could do it and their video on the whole construction process suggest finishing out the other side then placing the canopy at the end or… they will go on and start placing on the finished section which from a safety pov and efficiency I think it would be an option to start with the finished half and then work on the other half the lobby and finish out the canopy. We’ll see how it turns out!

[LKN704]

Based on available renderings, it looks like the southern/terminal-side portion of the canopy will be mounted on the terminal lobby roof. As such, I doubt the canopy will be installed until the entire lobby expansion is complete for stability reasons. 

Also, isn't the Western portion (the part that is lighted in the above photo) of the Lobby Expansion supposed to open this year? This Observer article (behind a paywall) alludes to that: https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article254322043.html as does a press release from the airport that is dated November 2021 that says:

The new construction on the lobby’s west side will open to passengers in spring/summer 2022, along with the west subterranean walkway – an underground tunnel that will connect the Hourly Deck to the terminal, allowing CLT visitors to bypass roadway traffic. 

I would assume an opening date would be relatively imminent? 

[Reverie39]

23 hours ago, LKN704 said:

That's a great photo, and the first image I've seen of the Lobby Expansion with the lights turned on.  As @49ersaid, it's kinda wild we have to rely on personal photographers for construction updates. 

I perused the CLT website, IG page, Twitter page, and Facebook page, and there are 0 recent construction updates or images to be seen, and their "Connections" construction update/newsletter hasn't been published since December 2020.

Yet on their social media accounts,  there are a plethora of pictures advertising that they have therapy dogs available in the terminal and that CLT has nonstop flights to Atlanta...who knew!!!

Maybe I'm crazy, but considering the spartan/barebones reputation CLT tends to have nationally, I would think they would want to showcase a genuine improvement they are working on. 

Highlighting nonstop flights from Charlotte to Atlanta is... baffling. That's got to be one of the most obvious nonstop flights to have in the country. Two top-10 busiest airports located 225 miles apart...

[LKN704]

1 hour ago, Reverie39 said:

Highlighting nonstop flights from Charlotte to Atlanta is... baffling. That's got to be one of the most obvious nonstop flights to have in the country. Two top-10 busiest airports located 225 miles apart...

There's so many other "cool" places they could advertise...like why not advertise that Charlotte is the only city in the Southeast to have nonstop service to both Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket? What about the multiple daily flights to Germany? 

That said, I guess I can't blame them. I suppose most people wouldn't have a clue where Martha's Vineyard is, so they better stick to something safe like Atlanta. Your general everyday American is completely ignorant when it comes to anything related to travel (especially foreign travel) and aviation...even those with a disposable income that can afford to frequently travel. At the very least, when compared to other developed countries, Americans tend to prioritize travel lower than other luxuries. I know someone in Charlotte who frequently goes out and drops thousands of dollars on designer bags/clothes, and yet doesn't own a passport and doesn't have the desire to go overseas and is happy enough going to Myrtle Beach. Likewise, I am always surprised at the number of people I know in Charlotte who have no idea how large CLT is and how you can get to say Rome nonstop. 

I had dinner with an old friend of mine the other day. He has a good, secure job, lives the yuppie bachelor lifestyle and could travel wherever he wanted to, whenever he wanted to. His idea of an "exotic" vacation is a 7 day Carnival cruise that goes to Cozumel and the Turks + Caicos. There is nothing wrong with that vacation at all, but I guess it just shows the disparity in Americans vacation/travel patterns compared to those other developed countries. Only around 40% of all Americans possess a passport, compared to + 70% of all Canadians. 

Me and him were talking about future travel plans, and I told him how United was just awarded the rights to fly DC-Cape Town nonstop, and I told him how I have been saving United miles for some time, and I plan to go as soon as they open the route for reservations. First he was shocked that planes could fly that distance nonstop (he didn't even know you could fly to Europe nonstop from DC) and then he expressed bewilderment as to why I wanted to go there.

Granted, I get that although it's quickly changing, vacation time/PTO isn't as generous here as in other countries, but still. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. 

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by LKN704

[CltFlyer]

Ask and you shall receive!  A portion of the terminal lobby expansion will open on 7/27.

https://cltairport.mediaroom.com/West_End_TLE_Opens_July_27

Highlights include 3 new pieces of artwork and a subterranean walkway to the rental cars/daily deck.  

The east end structure will be completed by the end of 2023.  Renovation/remodel of ticketing and baggage claim for the completed portion will begin at the end of this month.

 

 

 

[LKN704]

Wow. 

As a frequent critic of CLT, I must say it looks really nice! I especially like the marble framing near the underground tunnel and the entrance corridors. I don't know how it will look in 30 years, but it's definitely a classy, modern touch. 

It's a little unclear as to what this opening is...it looks like this section won't have any ticketing or baggage claim facilities, so essentially just a corridor to/from the underground walkway/terminal curb to the existing (old/un-refurbished) ticketing/baggage claim area? 

[CltFlyer]

11 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

Wow. 

As a frequent critic of CLT, I must say it looks really nice! I especially like the marble framing near the underground tunnel and the entrance corridors. I don't know how it will look in 30 years, but it's definitely a classy, modern touch. 

It's a little unclear as to what this opening is...it looks like this section won't have any ticketing or baggage claim facilities, so essentially just a corridor to/from the underground walkway/terminal curb to the existing (old/un-refurbished) ticketing/baggage claim area? 

From what I gathered in the article.  I believe this is just expanded space and after this is opened at the end of the month  they will begin re-doing the baggage claim/pick-up and check in counter.

 

"When passengers enter on either the terminal’s upper or lower levels, ticket counters, security checkpoints and luggage carousels will not be immediately visible. Signage has been installed to point customers in the right direction. Airport employees will be stationed in Arrivals/Baggage Claim and Departures/Ticketing next week to assist with wayfinding as well."

"Renovation of the existing Departures/Ticketing and Arrivals/Baggage Claim areas kicks off at the end of this month."