Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[JeanClt]

Happens more often than one would think. The whole crew comes out lol.

[KJHburg]

Airport dropoff today  for my brothers family flight on Lufthansa and went over to the Overlook area and the new 4th parallel runaway is in full construction mainly site work right now.  

[JeanClt]

Airport dropoff today  for my brothers family flight on Lufthansa and went over to the Overlook area and the new 4th parallel runaway is in full construction mainly site work right now.  
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No construction on that has begun as far as I know, what’s going on up there is end around taxiway (NEAT in the north where the overlook resides) that would allow certain types of planes to go around the runway instead of crossing it as they do now. This for safety and efficiency purposes as aircraft crossing a runway would have to wait for a clear path.

[KJHburg]

Yes I was mistaken it was not the new runaway but the taxiways which are needed for the new runaway.  It is one long multiyear project.  Here is about the new overlook but you should see the dirt moving over there. 

https://cltairport.mediaroom.com/Airport_Overlook

[allthingsplanes]

2 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Yes I was mistaken it was not the new runaway but the taxiways which are needed for the new runaway.  It is one long multiyear project.  Here is about the new overlook but you should see the dirt moving over there. 

https://cltairport.mediaroom.com/Airport_Overlook

This will be awesome.  For years I have thought that the Overlook could be an even better amenity for both the airport and the city, but that it really needed some facilities.  Namely bathrooms but some sort of food option as well.  There are always so many people there but it can be a little difficult to stay for any period if you have smaller kids...

This could really be something that helps define our airport and make us unique!

[JeanClt]

Yes I was mistaken it was not the new runaway but the taxiways which are needed for the new runaway.  It is one long multiyear project.  Here is about the new overlook but you should see the dirt moving over there. 
https://cltairport.mediaroom.com/Airport_Overlook

I got to see a few renditions of it and ideas they came up with. Definitely will be an upgrade from what is there now.

[#1Son]

Is the new ATC tower operational yet?  If it is when will the old ATC tower between the parking decks be taken down?

[JeanClt]

Is the new ATC tower operational yet?  If it is when will the old ATC tower between the parking decks be taken down?

It is operating, though I’m unsure about the plans for the old one.

[csweet]

3 hours ago, JeanClt said:

It is operating, though I’m unsure about the plans for the old one.

Pretty sure plans are to scrap the old tower and possibly build a hotel or run a terminal commuter in its location.

[KJHburg]

The Ledger posted this video of the new artwork in the tunnel between the main parking garage and terminal.    Called Restless Sky looks pretty neat. 

 

[DJ8hep]

The Ledger posted this video of the new artwork in the tunnel between the main parking garage and terminal.    Called Restless Sky looks pretty neat. 
 

That is really cool!

[LKN704]

Not necessarily CLT related but somewhat CLT adjacent, well-known (and usually correct) AA informant on Twitter JonNYC is reporting that AA is likely to rip out First class from their 77Ws. I'm not sure when (and he hasn't said), but I do know the fleet is going through heavy maintenance this winter. 

Although it's been rumored for some time, if true, it's quite sad, as it's an end of an era, both for US aviation (as they are the last US carrier with an International First Class product) and the airline itself. After they ripped out TV monitors from the domestic fleet, the 77W First class product is the last remaining vestige of CEO Tom Horton's failed-plan (pre US Airways merger) to create a "premium" US airline. 

The reality unfortunately is that the First product (outside of a soup course and a choice of appetizers, and pajamas) is no different than their Business offering, and there is essentially no incentive to book First over Business these days, especially considering that corporate travel policies no longer allow employees (except maybe C-Suite execs, but even that is rare these days) to book International First. The crowd that booked into International First 20 years ago is likely either flying private or booking into Business today. I suppose it makes sense, given that today's Business class seats are better than the International First seats on the market 20 years ago, and today's Premium Economy seats are essentially the same Business class seats on the market 20 years ago. 

There are really only 15-ish markets (I would say NYC, London, Dubai, Paris, Singapore, Sydney, Johannesburg, São Paulo, Tokyo, LA, Frankfurt, Zurich, Washington, Miami, and Shanghai) that can consistently support a First class cabin across more than one carrier. 

Anyways, back to CLT, if this is all true, I wouldn't be surprised to see one of the London frequencies move to a 77W once the retrofit is complete as it's an easy way to add capacity without having to sacrifice (or buy) an additional Heathrow slot. They have actually used the plane into Charlotte before on occasion as a sub, although with it's longer wingspan and length, I think they are limited to certain gates. 

Here's a photo of the plane at CLT last year. The engines are so large, that their width 152.4 inches) is wider than the fuselage of a 737 (148 inches). 

Edited August 25, 2022 by LKN704

[KJHburg]

Even this guy had to go through TSA security at CLT this week.  Those talons could be weapons.  

From Twitter and of course he flew AMERICAN 

TSA officers are used to seeing an eagle on their uniform as they look over their shoulder, but I’m sure the team at 
@CLTAirport
 Checkpoint A did a double take when they saw a real one earlier this week.  Our special guest was Clark the Eagle with the World Bird Sanctuary, who decided to give his wings a break and fly commercial.  His airline notified us and we screened him and his handler. Clark is trained to spread his wings, and even showed off a bit during screening.  (2/2)

Edited August 26, 2022 by KJHburg

[cltfb]

On 2/24/2022 at 9:30 PM, TCLT said:

Underground people mover would be the plan. Various past iterations of terminal master plans included turning the Destination CLT bump outs of B and C into a parallel satellite terminal as well down the road and eliminate the current B and C concourses. That would get CLT closer to the layout style of ATL or DEN and that would also tie in to the underground people mover.

Elimination of B/C seems like it'd be more efficient than the proposed bump outs, almost like what SLC did (below)... getting rid of the piers and developing a parallel satellite concourse. Once CLT has four parallel runways, it's going to be more efficient to have a modern terminal layout such as you suggested.

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by cltfb

[xapostrophe]

7 hours ago, cltfb said:

Elimination of B/C seems like it'd be more efficient than the proposed bump outs, almost like what SLC did (below)... getting rid of the piers and developing a parallel satellite concourse. Once CLT has four parallel runways, it's going to be more efficient to have a modern terminal layout such as you suggested.

 

This would be one of the most relieving ideas, I am betting it will never happen.  For Cost reasons alone.  Though, you never know.   It would also eliminate some very old terminals.

[CLT>]

On 8/27/2022 at 2:08 AM, cltfb said:

Elimination of B/C seems like it'd be more efficient than the proposed bump outs, almost like what SLC did (below)... getting rid of the piers and developing a parallel satellite concourse. Once CLT has four parallel runways, it's going to be more efficient to have a modern terminal layout such as you suggested.

 

That is similar to what is proposed at CLT, turning it into a modified version of the 'toast rack' model of airports. It's the most efficient  design for connecting hubs.

This will be phase 1:

 

Followed by the  final product which includes a new midfield terminal:

This also shows that a new hotel would not be adjacent to the terminal where the old Tower is, but between the rail line and  Wilkinson Blvd, all  accessed via a People Mover. Note the plans for both  a HSR stop and Silver Line Stop in the plans. The Tower is due to become an additional parking deck which will open up the Long term lots for commercial development.

There have been a few plans which show the Midfield concourse replacing E, and E  becoming more  hard stand. 

[LKN704]

For hub airports that do a 100% terminal redesign/rebuild (as in SLC), really the most logical design is the parallel satellite terminal complex (see DEN, ATL, IAD, CVG) simply because of its efficiency, as CLT> said.

That said, I don't think efficiency was the driving force for SLC's redesign...but rather the need to have a seismically resistant terminal. IIRC, models indicated that the old terminal would't be able to withstand a 7.0+ magnitude quake, which I believe the SLC region is due for in the next 50 years.

Forgive me, as I have very poor/non-existent graphic design skills, but this is how I envision the terminal progression of CLT:

Current terminal layout:

+ A North Phase II:

 

+Stinger Extensions onto B and C:

 

+New Hammerhead/Satellite Concourse to replace E:

 

+Final extension that links the 2 B/C extensions together to form a single satellite concourse, while eliminating the original sections of B and C. The old A concourse is renamed Concourse B, while the old D concourse is renamed Concourse C. The "new" B/C could be repurposed to serve AA flights that have a heavy O/D traffic focus (as opposed to connecting traffic), like say flights to NYC, DC, Boston, Chicago, Dallas, etc. All in all, you end up with an extremely efficient connecting complex:

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by LKN704

[Reverie39]

Very cool. Would this all be fairly walkable, or would it require a tram system like Atlanta?

[LKN704]

6 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

Very cool. Would this all be fairly walkable, or would it require a tram system like Atlanta?

The satellite concourses (denoted as D and E in my last figure) would be connected to the Main Terminal building by an automated people mover (APM).

The airport will be constructing the 4000 foot long tunnel (called the midfield access tunnel in the master plan) for the APM system in the next couple of years (as part of the current master plan) to minimize future airfield congestion/pavement removal. 

[norm21499]

13 hours ago, LKN704 said:

The satellite concourses (denoted as D and E in my last figure) would be connected to the Main Terminal building by an automated people mover (APM).

The airport will be constructing the 4000 foot long tunnel (called the midfield access tunnel in the master plan) for the APM system in the next couple of years (as part of the current master plan) to minimize future airfield congestion/pavement removal. 

Hopefully the people mover won't be too bad. I'm not a huge fan of the one in ATL

[LKN704]

17 minutes ago, norm21499 said:

Hopefully the people mover won't be too bad. I'm not a huge fan of the one in ATL

I'm sure it won't be. 

The problem with ATL is that it was designed in the 1970s where there was little thought to design and natural light. That, plus the need to be cost efficient, led to narrow dimly lit corridors:

Compare that to the new(er) people mover system at Washington Dulles:

Edited August 31, 2022 by LKN704

[CLTdev18]

IAD probably holds the title for "biggest age difference between operating people movers."

 

vv Also a people mover at IAD

Edited September 2, 2022 by CLTdev18
typo

[AirNostrumMAD]

32 minutes ago, CLTdev18 said:

IAD probably holds the title for "biggest age deference between operating people movers."

 

vv Also a people mover at IAD

Lol. I actually love those things, comfort wise. Though they are cartoonishly outdated looking on the outside.

And just to add something substantive to the thread, I saw this article on airport recovery October  2019 VS. October 2022. Looks like Charlotte has 97% of passengers versus Oct. 2019. That makes it number 50 on the list (but keeping in mind Charlotte already had a lot of Service versus say Austin which is like 140% that had a lot less service but a yuge increase in flights from airlines trying to establish a hub there or versus very small airports where a few flights makes a large impact). It's just so nice to see a clear cut return to normal in the airline industry! I knew there would be a return to normal - though I didn't think it would recover so strong so fast. I was so sick of the complete doom and gloom on airline industry, mass transit, cities, etc. So this is another data point that there is hope for urbanity haha. 

https://simpleflying.com/usa-most-least-recovered-airports/

[TCLT]

50 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Lol. I actually love those things, comfort wise. Though they are cartoonishly outdated looking on the outside.

And just to add something substantive to the thread, I saw this article on airport recovery October  2019 VS. October 2022. Looks like Charlotte has 97% of passengers versus Oct. 2019. That makes it number 50 on the list (but keeping in mind Charlotte already had a lot of Service versus say Austin which is like 140% that had a lot less service but a yuge increase in flights from airlines trying to establish a hub there or versus very small airports where a few flights makes a large impact). It's just so nice to see a clear cut return to normal in the airline industry! I knew there would be a return to normal - though I didn't think it would recover so strong so fast. I was so sick of the complete doom and gloom on airline industry, mass transit, cities, etc. So this is another data point that there is hope for urbanity haha. 

https://simpleflying.com/usa-most-least-recovered-airports/

This is cool data to see, thanks! I looked at rank by seats (since that is what the % change is comparing), and CLT was #9 in 2019 (it is still #9 for seats in 2022 interestingly).  Four of the airports ahead of it in 2019 seats have recovered more seats (LAS, DEN, DFW, and JFK). Funny that CLT is #50 out of 100 and also #5 out of the top 10 in 2019 capacity. But keep in mind that overall capacity is still down from 2019 (especially corporate business travel), but higher prices mean that revenue (but not profit) is almost recovered to pre-pandemic levels. There's also a lot less employees and airplanes compared to 2019. I'm not sure I would call the industry back to normal, even though what we see is probably normal now.

Not sure how airline capacity recovery correlates to urbanity though.

[AirNostrumMAD]

32 minutes ago, TCLT said:

This is cool data to see, thanks! I looked at rank by seats (since that is what the % change is comparing), and CLT was #9 in 2019 (it is still #9 for seats in 2022 interestingly).  Four of the airports ahead of it in 2019 seats have recovered more seats (LAS, DEN, DFW, and JFK). Funny that CLT is #50 out of 100 and also #5 out of the top 10 in 2019 capacity. But keep in mind that overall capacity is still down from 2019 (especially corporate business travel), but higher prices mean that revenue (but not profit) is almost recovered to pre-pandemic levels. There's also a lot less employees and airplanes compared to 2019. I'm not sure I would call the industry back to normal, even though what we see is probably normal now.

Not sure how airline capacity recovery correlates to urbanity though.

Oh, thanks for clarifying further or expanding on that. I was on my phone and the data wasn't fully showing nor cooperating. and by airline capacity relating to urbanity, i meant in terms of things that were supposed to die or never come back at the levels they were, the airlines have and several other things have too (tourism, mass transit, concerts, etc. depending on city/region/specifics). The doom and gloom scenarios). 

And agreed with you on the "new normal". 

Edited September 1, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD