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Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion


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Delta resumed its RDU to Paris flight earlier this year so that is good we are getting our flight back.  

My brother flew the nonstop from Frankfurt this past summer so not sure like you said why that was on there.  He loved it one stop service to Albania because during Covid he had 3-4 stops. 

Edited by KJHburg
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My guess is this announcement just shows the routes that will operate next summer but didn't operate this past summer, regardless of whether they are operational at present. None of the routes in that chart were operational S22. 

CLT-FRA was temporarily suspended this summer due to equipment shortages, as was SEA-LHR, for example. 

It's kind of a lackluster announcement compared to UA/DL, then again, AA has made it clear post-pandemic that they are more interested in bringing folks to Midland/Odessa than to Malaga. Hopefully once the A321XLRs are delivered we will see the return of new international destinations.

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9 hours ago, LKN704 said:

My guess is this announcement just shows the routes that will operate next summer but didn't operate this past summer, regardless of whether they are operational at present. None of the routes in that chart were operational S22. 

CLT-FRA was temporarily suspended this summer due to equipment shortages, as was SEA-LHR, for example. 

It's kind of a lackluster announcement compared to UA/DL, then again, AA has made it clear post-pandemic that they are more interested in bringing folks to Midland/Odessa than to Malaga. Hopefully once the A321XLRs are delivered we will see the return of new international destinations.

This is exactly what they've done.  Outside of the CLT-CDG resumption announcement and DFW-Tokyo Haneda (which his just a transfer from Tokyo Narita).  Every "resumption" they list is currently being flown this winter, they just didn't fly this past summer.  

In regards to 2x daily Frankfurt.  I do wonder if it could return with the introduction of the 321XLR.  Seem like a good use for one summer seasonal.

AA has really taken advantage of UA's retreat from small markets during the pandemic and DLs slower recovery.  In my local market (LEX).  They have really made an attempt to close the gap with DL during the pandemic and it seems to be working.

 

 

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CLT-CDG has been loaded. Flight runs from 1 June through 13 August with a 772...an extremely short season given it used to run from April through the end of October.  I'm guessing they are playing it safe with the August end date and can always extend the season depending on how bookings play out. 

Same flight number as it used to have...786/787. 

 

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On 12/9/2022 at 10:51 AM, KJHburg said:

Delta resumed its RDU to Paris flight earlier this year so that is good we are getting our flight back.  

My brother flew the nonstop from Frankfurt this past summer so not sure like you said why that was on there.  He loved it one stop service to Albania because during Covid he had 3-4 stops. 

actually I just remembered my brother flew on the Lufthansa flight nonstop to Munich then on to Albania not AA to Frankfurt 

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On 12/11/2022 at 1:52 PM, LKN704 said:

CLT-CDG has been loaded. Flight runs from 1 June through 13 August with a 772...an extremely short season given it used to run from April through the end of October.  I'm guessing they are playing it safe with the August end date and can always extend the season depending on how bookings play out. 

Same flight number as it used to have...786/787. 

 

Late Summer in France is absolutely miserable.  

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A fond look at our aviation past. From The Economist.

The death of a queen is a time for reflection. So it was when the last 747 jumbo jet—the “Queen of the Skies” to legions of fans—rolled off Boeing’s production line in Washington state on December 6th. Her demise has been slow and a little undignified. The last plane to be sold as passenger transport was in 2017, to Korean Air Lines. After that she was used only for cargo, and not many operators wanted her for that. Only 30 747s were ordered over the past five years. Even so, for those who associate the bumpy-headed bird with aviation’s heyday, it feels like the end of an era.

PanAm flew the first commercial 747 route in 1970, between JFK airport in New York and London Heathrow. Strict regulation of the industry at the time restricted which routes airlines could fly. Ticket prices were also controlled. Those first jumbos typically carried 366 passengers, compared with around 200 on the Boeing 707s that flew the transatlantic route in the 1960s. That gave carriers a better chance of turning a profit in the face of these constraints. But their size would also prove to be a burden. When the oil shock struck in the mid-1970s, the gas-guzzling, four-engined beasts were a factor in airlines’ crippling losses—not least because the recession meant it was more difficult to fill its seats.

In 1978 America deregulated its aviation market, the world’s biggest. That prompted airlines to develop the “hub-and-spoke” business model. With fewer limitations on which routes they could operate, carriers could fly huge aircraft to their home airports, before decanting passengers onto smaller planes that took them to their final destination; this changed both domestic and international air travel. That allowed operators to serve more airports with fewer planes. The more customers that could be squeezed onto the hub-bound flights, the better. That was a boon for what was then the world’s largest passenger plane. To secure its place in this system, in 1988 Boeing launched the 747-400, which could fly up to 8,354 miles (13,450 km) non-stop, around 650 miles more than its predecessor, the 747-300. It typically carried 416 passengers.

During the 2000s competition squeezed Boeing’s jumbo. In 2007 Airbus, the American firm’s great European rival, launched the A380. This double-decker giant remains the largest passenger plane ever made, with up to 615 seats. For carriers whose prime interest was funnelling huge numbers of people through their hubs, it became the aircraft of choice. A new breed of “super-connector” airlines, such as Emirates and Qatar, built their business models around them. Emirates operates 118 A380s and no 747s. More recently, carriers have been lured by new ultra-long-range, super-efficient planes such as Airbus’s A350 and Boeing’s own 777. These carry almost as many passengers as Boeing’s jumbo, but have just two engines, making it economically viable to fly more point-to-point long-distance routes. The 747 could not survive this competitive pincer. An ailing Queen of the Skies was already on her deathbed when the pandemic killed her off.

Yet the future of big passenger planes has begun to look a little brighter than it did before covid-19 struck, even if the 747 will no longer be among their number. (Nor might the A380 be for long, because of those new long-range planes.) Air traffic has rebounded from the effects of the pandemic. But analysts think that, in the Zoom age, leisure passengers will return to the skies more readily than business folk. Those on the company dime are more likely to pay a premium to board a flight at a convenient time, which means carriers must offer them more frequent flights on smaller planes. But holidaymakers are more concerned about price than about a civilised departure time. They are also more likely to book far in advance. This makes their custom less lucrative, but means they can be stuffed onto larger jets. The queen may be dead, but the monarchy is alive and well.

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I too took that HKG to Syd flight a few times. It was a real joy in business. Mostly I flew nyc or ord to nrt though and always did the upper deck. Always tried to get ANA but then AA undercut them and we had to slum it on their 777. What a let down!

There was something special about going up the stairs and having an open bar up there. Landings were also unbelievably smooth.

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When I was a kid, I had an inflatable 747 that hung by a string from the light fixture in my bedroom. I'm pretty certain it was a souvenir from a TWA flight, because I'm fairly sure the plane livery was red, not blue. My grandmother gave it to me after she returned from a trip, so 747s occupy a big, big place in my emotional memory.  I'm so glad I actually got to fly on a few. I only wish I'd kept it, even if got a hole in it at some point (I'm guessing). 

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37 minutes ago, ertley said:

When I was a kid, I had an inflatable 747 that hung by a string from the light fixture in my bedroom. I'm pretty certain it was a souvenir from a TWA flight, because I'm fairly sure the plane livery was red, not blue. My grandmother gave it to me after she returned from a trip, so 747s occupy a big, big place in my emotional memory.  I'm so glad I actually got to fly on a few. I only wish I'd kept it, even if got a hole in it at some point (I'm guessing). 

So I was obsessed  with toy planes growing up. My mother flew a lot for business so she'd always pick me up a plane from the airport so I have a ton of older airline toys (like the picture below which isn't mine because I don't keep things in boxes lol). I have TED, Song, old NWA colors, the latest NWA colors, Continental, America West, AirTran, ATA, a few other older airlines, a legion of older US Airways and the last US Airways (because I wanted my toy airport to be a US Airways hub and for every other airline I got, I wanted to increase US Airways by a few more) xD It's still my prized possession. I think in my life I've been homeless a few times (but extremely well off now) and my box of planes from the childhood was like. The #1 thing I always made sure I'd have.

image.jpeg.065f69e548abe8c04308c5dc51ae49ad.jpeg

Edited by AirNostrumMAD
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On 12/10/2022 at 6:55 PM, KJHburg said:

some may forget unless you fly in a lot that Norfolk Southern has a huge intermodal yard at the airport.

Couple of drive by photos. 

http://www.nscorp.com/content/nscorp/en/shipping-options/intermodal/terminals-and-schedules/charlotte-n-c-.html

IMG_7471.JPG

IMG_7472.JPG

This begs the question: why isn’t there a train station at the airport so people could take Amtrak all the way to the airport?

The NY-Charlotte-Atlanta Amtrak line sends Amtrak trains through airport grounds.  Adding a simple station at the airport would be easy, and it would make getting to the airport easy.

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9 minutes ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

This begs the question: why isn’t there a train station at the airport so people could take Amtrak all the way to the airport?

The NY-Charlotte-Atlanta Amtrak line sends Amtrak trains through airport grounds.  Adding a simple station at the airport would be easy, and it would make getting to the airport easy.

and increasing local traffic probably from Greensboro and elsewhere in the Carolinas.  Good idea. 

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1 hour ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

This begs the question: why isn’t there a train station at the airport so people could take Amtrak all the way to the airport?

The NY-Charlotte-Atlanta Amtrak line sends Amtrak trains through airport grounds.  Adding a simple station at the airport would be easy, and it would make getting to the airport easy.

This is only because Norfolk Southern owns the tracks between the current station and the airport, not the NCRR. NCDOT has been unwilling to pay the necessary track upgrade costs to NS to run the Piedmont trains past uptown (NS would ask for some very expensive improvements since they don't want the approach to their fancy new intermodal hub clogged up)

[and the one train each day that passes the airport runs in the middle of the night (when the airport is shutdown)]

Edited by kermit
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I've looked at using Amtrak many times from Charlotte. Having worked a lot in countries with good train systems I'm biased to that mode of travel. However, everytime I consider using Amtrak from Charlotte the schedule isn't workable and of course I might beat it on my e-bike. :⁠-⁠) So, would a link to Amtrak really be a priority given the of paucity of transit resources? I recognize it's a "chicken and egg" problem but to me I'd work on local till Amtrak and Congress get their act together. Gateway is enough for now.

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8 hours ago, elrodvt said:

I've looked at using Amtrak many times from Charlotte. Having worked a lot in countries with good train systems I'm biased to that mode of travel. However, everytime I consider using Amtrak from Charlotte the schedule isn't workable and of course I might beat it on my e-bike. :⁠-⁠) So, would a link to Amtrak really be a priority given the of paucity of transit resources? I recognize it's a "chicken and egg" problem but to me I'd work on local till Amtrak and Congress get their act together. Gateway is enough for now.

I think that an airport train station should be analyzed from a cost/benefit perspective: would the added train revenues be greater than the costs of track work (Kermit, thanks for pointing that out) and a new station?  Or would the added revenues be consistent with past increases from prior spending on track work and stations elsewhere in NC?  I would think so.

It would be best if the Piedmont trains were extended south to Columbia or (particularly) Greenville, and that, plus an airport station, could significantly increase ridership, but we all know that would never happen.

Edited by PuppiesandKittens
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1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

Flight to train connections require very frequent service on the rail line to be practical. Right now, our Amtrak service in Charlotte has hours-long frequency gaps between trains on the Piedmont. If you have a 45-minute delay to your flight due to weather at the origin airport, that could mean missing the afternoon train and sitting in Charlotte waiting for the next train for several hours. People simply won't tolerate that after a long day of flying. Miss the last train of the day (which is relatively early at 7pm), and you'll have to book a hotel at your own expense until the morning train. You need Northeast type frequency of every 30 minutes or it won't make sense for air travel connections.

Spotty train connections are better than no connections, and the Charlotte-area Amtrak lines are targeted for more service.

I took Amtrak to the Milwaukee airport and it was very convenient even though the frequency of trains there isn’t great.

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4 hours ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

I think that an airport train station should be analyzed from a cost/benefit perspective: would the added train revenues be greater than the costs of track work (Kermit, thanks for pointing that out) and a new station? 

Absolutely not. Airport Amtrak could cost $100 million (5 miles of third mainline track from Uptown, signals, a station siding and station building). At current (and projected) Piedmont frequencies it would never come close to paying for itself. Having said that, I am not suggesting that fare box revenue should be a primary goal for rail service — no one thinks about roads in these terms.

Silver line service is more financially realistic for Charlotte residents and (in theory) SEHSR between Gateway Station and Atlanta will provide this connectivity eventually, but I am not expecting SEHSR in my lifetime.

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1 hour ago, kermit said:

Absolutely not. Airport Amtrak could cost $100 million (5 miles of third mainline track from Uptown, signals, a station siding and station building). At current (and projected) Piedmont frequencies it would never come close to paying for itself. Having said that, I am not suggesting that fare box revenue should be a primary goal for rail service — no one thinks about roads in these terms.

Silver line service is more financially realistic for Charlotte residents and (in theory) SEHSR between Gateway Station and Atlanta will provide this connectivity eventually, but I am not expecting SEHSR in my lifetime.

Thanks for pointing out the cost and alternatives.  Your posts are very helpful and you are clearly very knowledgeable.  
 

The Charlotte-Atlanta line is, and has been for years, targeted for upgrades and more frequent passenger service.  And Norfolk Southern is dealing with extensive congestion on the line.  So no matter who uses additional track capacity, it needs to be built.  Even if adding an airport station is done only if and when more passenger trains are added between Charlotte and Atlanta, it would be beneficial, and waiting until more trains to Atlanta are ready to add a station would be fine.

In addition, public funds were used (in part) for Norfolk Southern’s rail yard at the airport.  It would not have been difficult to have required permission for an airport station as part of the public financing of that yard.  And that yard has lots of tracks; it would not have been earth-shattering to have included one more if needed when the yard was built.  I view the lack of an airport station already as a screw-up by government transportation leaders.

Edited by PuppiesandKittens
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