Jump to content

Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion


uptownliving

Recommended Posts

There are a few styles of international arrival gates:

  1. Direct, same-level access to the jetbridge. In the U.S., I have only seen this style at SFO. At SFO, the departure concourse is situated one level above the jetbridge. Each gate has a series of escalators/elevators that lead to the jetbridge before or after scanning your boarding pass. Arriving international passengers simply exit the aircraft and walk directly to passport control without going up/down a level.
  2. FIS is situated one level directly below, like in Charlotte. Gates are usually sealed off in groups and escalators/elevators take arriving passengers to immigration. Seems to be more common at older terminal buildings. 
  3. Overhead sterile corridor…for whatever reason this seems to be the new "best practice" at U.S. airports. I'm not sure why, but I'd imagine it's for aesthetics. Airports in the #2 example often have claustrophobic corridors buried deep in the bowels of the terminal without any natural light…not exactly the experience you want people to have before immigration.  Moving the corridor above the departure level essentially allows you to create more spacious corridors with lots of natural light. I would imagine this style is more expensive, as you must essentially build double the escalators/elevators (to bring people up to the corridor and then down to immigration). EWR, RDU, DFW, IAH, LAX, PHL, SEA, MIA, YYZ, YVR all have this style at some or all of their terminals.

Obviously, there are different styles overseas, like how some airports allow arriving international passengers to mix/mingle in the departure hall without any sort of security filter (like in Schiphol), but the U.S. lacks dedicated international terminals and doesn’t have formal exit control, and the U.S. government is far too paranoid to make any sort of changes in this area…the U.S. and Canada are the only two developed states that I know of that still require every arriving citizen (even those with Global Entry/Nexus) to physically see an immigration officer. Most other developed nations have implemented 100% automated passport control (via e-gates) for their arriving citizens and citizens of other developed countries. 

Edited by LKN704
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites


^ Super exciting news! Toronto Island airport (YTZ)  is 1000% better than Pearson.

About a year ago (?) Porter Airlines said they planned CLT-YYZ service using their new E195s. I have not heard anything since. I can't imagine that having four airlines connecting Charlotte and Toronto would be sustainable. I assume AA would want to maintain Pearson service for network reasons.

Edited by kermit
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

^I don't want to be a debbie-downer or yuck on anyone's yum, but I highly doubt that airline actually comes to fruition.

They've been trying to get off the ground for the past few years, don't have any staff, don't have a valid operating certificate, and lack substantial slots at Billy Bishop Airport. The FAA declined their application (I think twice, actually) due to safety issues and poor management. FWIW, Americans also hate turboprop aircraft, viewing turboprops as unsafe, rickety, and old. 

I believe they did plan an interline agreement with AA in their initial application for an AOC, but I can't see anything progressing.

If Porter's new operation out of Pearson is actually successful (hard to say at this point, their current dispatch rate is pretty horrible....don't know what loads/yields are like), I would imagine AA would likely launch some kind of partnership with them. Porter's chairman is ex-AA CEO, Donald Carty.  I suspect we will likely hear more info about Porter's future U.S. network very soon. 

I think the Charlotte/Toronto market is pretty much covered, especially considering how AA recently slashed its Canadian network from CLT (from ~3 mainline flights a day + 2 CR9s to just 3 CR9s daily). 

AA (like DL/UA) have to physically stay at Pearson as none of them have equipment capable of serving Billy Bishop. 

Edited by LKN704
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for that info. Unfortunate to hear. Hopefully they get their act together. They seem to have a pretty good leadership crew. I know they have been allocated 42 slots daily out of YTZ. Not sure how they’re going to be able to compete with Air Canada and Porter though. 

Edited by gman430
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LKN704 said:

^I don't want to be a debbie-downer or yuck on anyone's yum, but I highly doubt that airline actually comes to fruition.

They've been trying to get off the ground for the past few years, don't have any staff, don't have a valid operating certificate, and lack substantial slots at Billy Bishop Airport. The FAA declined their application (I think twice, actually) due to safety issues and poor management. FWIW, Americans also hate turboprop aircraft, viewing turboprops as unsafe, rickety, and old. 

I believe they did plan an interline agreement with AA in their initial application for an AOC, but I can't see anything progressing.

If Porter's new operation out of Pearson is actually successful (hard to say at this point, their current dispatch rate is pretty horrible....don't know what loads/yields are like), I would imagine AA would likely launch some kind of partnership with them. Porter's chairman is ex-AA CEO, Donald Carty.  I suspect we will likely hear more info about Porter's future U.S. network very soon. 

I think the Charlotte/Toronto market is pretty much covered, especially considering how AA recently slashed its Canadian network from CLT (from ~3 mainline flights a day + 2 CR9s to just 3 CR9s daily). 

AA (like DL/UA) have to physically stay at Pearson as none of them have equipment capable of serving Billy Bishop. 

Dude, you just ruined my Sunday.... (but I think I'll be OK).

Could AA's CLT-Canada slashing open an opportunity for Porter?

Does any US airline still run equipment that can serve Billy Bishop? I had thought that Toronto NIMBY's had succeeded in blocking any jet aircraft from Billy Bishop, and I had assumed that turbo props have been entirely abandoned for operations in the lower 48.

Edited by kermit
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, kermit said:

Dude, you just ruined my Sunday.... (but I think I'll be OK).

Could AA's CLT-Canada slashing open an opportunity for Porter?

Does any US airline still run equipment that can serve Billy Bishop? I had thought that Toronto NIMBY's had succeeded in blocking any jet aircraft from Billy Bishop, and I had assumed that turbo props have been entirely abandoned by routes in the lower 48.

Here’s an update from December: https://simpleflying.com/connect-airlines-proving-run-update-december-2022/

It sounds like slowly but surely things are moving in the right direction. It looks like they have gotten approval from DOT, have hired pilots, and have planes lined up ready to use. We shall see what happens. 

 

Another article from just a few weeks ago: https://www.narcity.com/6-things-to-know-about-new-airline-billy-bishop-airport-flights-taking-off-soon 

Connect Airlines has had to meet a number of time-consuming requirements before it can get the proper approvals from the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and Transport Canada. 

Conducting proving runs is one of the finals steps for the airline, and Thomas said those have now been completed. 

"We met the 150-hour requirement on the proving flights about three weeks ago," he said. "We're hoping that we're in the final stretch on the certification process." 

Thomas said right now, that puts the target launch date for Connect Airlines somewhere around May of 2023. 

"We'd like to be able to do something by May," said Thomas. 

Aside from these final regulatory hurdles, Thomas explained Connect Airlines already has everything needed for its launch ready to go including its website booking engine, a mobile app, and call centres.

Edited by gman430
Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, kermit said:

Dude, you just ruined my Sunday.... (but I think I'll be OK).

Could AA's CLT-Canada slashing open an opportunity for Porter?

Does any US airline still run equipment that can serve Billy Bishop? I had thought that Toronto NIMBY's had succeeded in blocking any jet aircraft from Billy Bishop, and I had assumed that turbo props have been entirely abandoned by routes in the lower 48.

I'm not sure. However, it looks like Air Canada responded and moved up the date they had planned to restart E175s on CLT-YYZ. 

You are correct...no major U.S. carrier still has turboprops. Alaska/Horizon Air just retired their Q400 in January.

I'm not sure what Charlotte/Toronto O&D levels look like (pure O&D information based on international city-pairs is classified), but I would imagine the market is still pretty well covered. 

Edited by LKN704
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LKN704 said:

I'm not sure what Charlotte/Toronto O&D levels look like (pure O&D information based on international city-pairs is classified), but I would imagine the market is still pretty well covered. 

I remember a TON of RDU-Toronto traffic back in the Northern Telecom days. AFAIK that traffic pretty much vaporized the second Nortel disappeared. I can't think of any significant Toronto-Charlotte economic linkages at the moment that might drive similar lucrative traffic. Its a shame, I think some stronger banking relationships between the two cities makes sense.  BoA did have a partnership w Scotiabank for a while. Maybe the state and the Chamber can twist TD bank's arm with a truckload of incentives to relocate its US offices to Charlotte from Cherry Hill for my hockey-fan flying convenience? (and to absorb some Uptown office space).

Its a shame the US is so backwards with international passenger transfers, Charlotte might have been a nice budget route for Canadians heading to the Caribbean? (but something tells me this line of reasoning is a relic of the 1990s)

Edited by kermit
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, kermit said:

I remember a TON of RDU-Toronto traffic back in the Northern Telecom days (pre internet 1.0 bubble burst). AFAIK that traffic pretty much vaporized the second Nortel disappeared. I can't think of any significant Toronto-Charlotte economic linkages at the moment that might drive similar lucrative traffic. Its a shame, I think some stronger banking relationships between the two cities makes sense.  BoA did have a partnership w Scotiabank for a while. Maybe the state and the Chamber can twist TD bank's arm with a truckload of incentives to relocate its US offices to Charlotte from Cherry Hill for my hockey-fan flying convenience? (and to absorb some Uptown office space).

Its a shame the US is so backwards with international passenger transfers, Charlotte might have been a nice budget route for Canadians heading to the Caribbean? (something tells me this line of reasoning is a relic of the 1990s)

Air Canada used to fly full-sized aircraft to both Charlotte and Raleigh.

AC regularly flew CLT-YYZ with A319s pre-9/11 and utilized DC9s + 737s on RDU-YYZ. After Air Canada merged with Canadian Airlines in the late 1990s, they also started flights to Ottawa from RDU for a short time with Fokker 28s. 

I don't think your reasoning is a relic of the 1990s, but I don't think it's the draconian U.S. transfer process that is killing possible international connections for Canadian passengers, rather it's just that Canadian airports are more likely to have international flights to "sun" destinations than their U.S. counterparts and there are a plethora of Canadian "holiday" airlines that cater to that market that come and go...Air Transat and Sunwing come to mind. Because most Canadians have to travel Internationally for vacation,  even podunk Canadian airports usually have at least one gate that can handle international arrivals...whereas several medium-sized airports in the U.S. cannot accept scheduled international arrivals. For example, 18 Canadian cities have nonstop flights to Cancun...even small cities like Moncton, Regina, and Saskatoon. 

Obviously, you cannot compare U.S. travel patterns to that of Canadians (who are far more adventurous) but FWIW, the Asheville metro area is nearly 3.5 times the size of the Moncton metro area, yet in addition to Cancun, Moncton regularly has international flights to Punta Cana, Montego Bay, Puerto Plata, and Varadero (which Americans couldn't go to anyways). That level of international service would be unheard of in a city of Moncton's size in the U.S.

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, kermit said:

^ Super exciting news! Toronto Island airport (YTZ)  is 1000% better than Pearson.

About a year ago (?) Porter Airlines said they planned CLT-YYZ service using their new E195s. I have not heard anything since. I can't imagine that having four airlines connecting Charlotte and Toronto would be sustainable. I assume AA would want to maintain Pearson service for network reasons.

Porter just took delivery of their first E195 last month so it will take time to build up its fleet, supposedly they will have 40 by year end.  I have read that they are looking to start with Florida and southwestern US markets.

 

If Connect has 42 slots with turbo-props then it would seem that would be better for shorter routes with quick turn arounds, northeast and great lakes area markets.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

Air Canada used to fly full-sized aircraft to both Charlotte and Raleigh.

AC regularly flew CLT-YYZ with A319s pre-9/11 and utilized DC9s + 737s on RDU-YYZ. After Air Canada merged with Canadian Airlines in the late 1990s, they also started flights to Ottawa from RDU for a short time with Fokker 28s. 

I don't think your reasoning is a relic of the 1990s, but I don't think it's the draconian U.S. transfer process that is killing possible international connections for Canadian passengers, rather it's just that Canadian airports are more likely to have international flights to "sun" destinations than their U.S. counterparts and there are a plethora of Canadian "holiday" airlines that cater to that market that come and go...Air Transat and Sunwing come to mind. Because most Canadians have to travel Internationally for vacation,  even podunk Canadian airports usually have at least one gate that can handle international arrivals...whereas several medium-sized airports in the U.S. cannot accept scheduled international arrivals. For example, 18 Canadian cities have nonstop flights to Cancun...even small cities like Moncton, Regina, and Saskatoon. 

Obviously, you cannot compare U.S. travel patterns to that of Canadians (who are far more adventurous) but FWIW, the Asheville metro area is nearly 3.5 times the size of the Moncton metro area, yet in addition to Cancun, Moncton regularly has international flights to Punta Cana, Montego Bay, Puerto Plata, and Varadero (which Americans couldn't go to anyways). That level of international service would be unheard of in a city of Moncton's size in the U.S.

 

I recall standing in the Montreal airport in front of a large wall display showing all the western hemisphere destinations with curved lines indicated and they were all in one general direction, South. South, SSW, SW, SE. A shock to one used to seeing the Charlotte, display on the seatback magazine and elsewhere. The flights from Montreal to the north are specialty carriers, twin otter types heading to sub arctic and deep lake fishing locations. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This connect operation was supposed to start up in Philadelphia.  They have had an airplane parked up there for a long time.

 

They were trying to hire pilots for a while but had very little luck.  Frankly with an operation like avelo or breeze being available to new hires I don't know why you would go here.  But as everyone knows if you want to make a million dollars in aviation start with a billion.

I can't imagine that much demand for a turboprop service to and from all of those cities and Canada.

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, xapostrophe said:

This connect operation was supposed to start up in Philadelphia.  They have had an airplane parked up there for a long time.

 

They were trying to hire pilots for a while but had very little luck.  Frankly with an operation like avelo or breeze being available to new hires I don't know why you would go here.  But as everyone knows if you want to make a million dollars in aviation start with a billion.

I can't imagine that much demand for a turboprop service to and from all of those cities and Canada.

With this pay, I would leave Avelo and Breeze in a heartbeat if I was a pilot to go here: https://simpleflying.com/connect-airlines-250k-pilot-salary/

Edited by gman430
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, LKN704 said:

^I don't want to be a debbie-downer or yuck on anyone's yum, but I highly doubt that airline actually comes to fruition.

They've been trying to get off the ground for the past few years, don't have any staff, don't have a valid operating certificate, and lack substantial slots at Billy Bishop Airport. The FAA declined their application (I think twice, actually) due to safety issues and poor management. FWIW, Americans also hate turboprop aircraft, viewing turboprops as unsafe, rickety, and old. 

I believe they did plan an interline agreement with AA in their initial application for an AOC, but I can't see anything progressing.

If Porter's new operation out of Pearson is actually successful (hard to say at this point, their current dispatch rate is pretty horrible....don't know what loads/yields are like), I would imagine AA would likely launch some kind of partnership with them. Porter's chairman is ex-AA CEO, Donald Carty.  I suspect we will likely hear more info about Porter's future U.S. network very soon. 

I think the Charlotte/Toronto market is pretty much covered, especially considering how AA recently slashed its Canadian network from CLT (from ~3 mainline flights a day + 2 CR9s to just 3 CR9s daily). 

AA (like DL/UA) have to physically stay at Pearson as none of them have equipment capable of serving Billy Bishop. 

It would probably take about 3 hours to get from CLT to Billy Bishop on a turboprop? Can't imagine it would be that popular. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, wilmore said:

It would probably take about 3 hours to get from CLT to Billy Bishop on a turboprop? Can't imagine it would be that popular. 

Porter did fly to Myrtle Beach seasonally. Arriving at Billy Bishop also saves 45ish minutes of post-landing travel time if you are going to downtown Toronto or anywhere east.  Not sure of flight time. It can’t be that hard to fill those small planes. 

Edited by kermit
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can anyone assist my memory? I was on a short hop commercial flight in the NE US ~30 (?) years ago and the seats were along the side of the fuselage and faced each other military flight style. I have no idea what the aircraft was at this point. What could it have been? I know I have been on a Fokker and a DC-3 among other antiques but this not them. De Havilland? This was before the intertoobz and one booked a flight and the details were unknown until boarding (At least to me).

Other non-pressurized cabin short hop commercial flights in my past in the 70's but this was later.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, kermit said:

Porter did fly to Myrtle Beach seasonally. Arriving at Billy Bishop also saves 45ish minutes of post-landing travel time if you are going to downtown Toronto or anywhere east.  Not sure of flight time. It can’t be that hard to fill those small planes. 

They also flew to Melbourne seasonally as well. The flight was significant weight restricted. 

On shorter segments, the time difference between jets and turboprops is insignificant. The performance of turboprops really starts to lag on longer segments, say 500+ miles.  A couple of years ago I flew on Horizon Air from Portland to Fresno on a Q400. Our flight duration was 2:24. The E175 they had on the route that took off earlier that day had a duration of 1:29. 

Most Q400s don't have an emergency oxygen system, so its service ceiling is quite low, at 25k feet.

In any case, Porter's success these days seems to be out of Ottawa, a market that has largely been neglected by Air Canada and Westjet. Consistent travel patterns from the federal government. I could maybe see them starting Charlotte/Ottawa, especially if they do launch a partnership with AA. 

50 minutes ago, tarhoosier said:

Can anyone assist my memory? I was on a short hop commercial flight in the NE US ~30 (?) years ago and the seats were along the side of the fuselage and faced each other military flight style. I have no idea what the aircraft was at this point. What could it have been? I know I have been on a Fokker and a DC-3 among other antiques but this not them. De Havilland? This was before the intertoobz and one booked a flight and the details were unknown until boarding (At least to me).

Other non-pressurized cabin short hop commercial flights in my past in the 70's but this was later.

I wonder if it was some sort of modified Shorts 330/360.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't like to double-post, but I have been thinking about the new Admirals Club and whether AA would carve out a small Flagship Lounge within the space.

40k square feet is a huge space and it would be relatively easy to carve out say 5-10k square feet within the lounge just for Flagship Business (or whatever AA plans to rename Business class to once International First goes away). I suppose they could also somehow make the space modular and affix room dividers or something and just close the space off during the transatlantic rush. 

That said, there are just five year-round (for now, assuming the third London flight sticks) flights from Charlotte that have a Flagship Business cabin and I'm not sure those five flights warrant a lounge. Charlotte isn't a competitive market, and it isn't like the small number of high-value local passengers in Charlotte are suddenly going to jump-ship and forgo a nonstop flight and say flight United via Washington/Dulles just to access a business class lounge. AA flyers connecting in Charlotte to Europe who truly value a business class lounge can just connect via another AA hub. 

This contrast with say Chicago, where AA has fewer year-round flights with a Flagship Business cabin than Charlotte does, but a lounge is necessary for competitive reasons in the higher-yielding Chicagoland market. 

AA's COO recently spoke about the third London flight and said "the Charlotte metro area is smaller than San Antonio yet the city works so well for the airline that they can fill a third Heathrow trip with customers in New Bern, North Carolina, Knoxville, Tennessee.”

You aren't attracting high-value traffic if you are chasing the transatlantic from New Bern.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

Can anyone assist my memory? I was on a short hop commercial flight in the NE US ~30 (?) years ago and the seats were along the side of the fuselage and faced each other military flight style. I have no idea what the aircraft was at this point. What could it have been? I know I have been on a Fokker and a DC-3 among other antiques but this not them. De Havilland? This was before the intertoobz and one booked a flight and the details were unknown until boarding (At least to me).

Other non-pressurized cabin short hop commercial flights in my past in the 70's but this was later.

Was it possibly a Fairchild Swearingen Metroliner?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the suggestions but hard to say at this distance in time. A search for "interiors" for those two craft show nothing I recall for what that is worth. Checking photos of those planes I cannot say if one is that from my memory.

The message here is scheduled commercial air travel has improved dramatically in a short (comparative) time. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, LKN704 said:

I don't like to double-post, but I have been thinking about the new Admirals Club and whether AA would carve out a small Flagship Lounge within the space.

40k square feet is a huge space and it would be relatively easy to carve out say 5-10k square feet within the lounge just for Flagship Business (or whatever AA plans to rename Business class to once International First goes away). I suppose they could also somehow make the space modular and affix room dividers or something and just close the space off during the transatlantic rush. 

That said, there are just five year-round (for now, assuming the third London flight sticks) flights from Charlotte that have a Flagship Business cabin and I'm not sure those five flights warrant a lounge. Charlotte isn't a competitive market, and it isn't like the small number of high-value local passengers in Charlotte are suddenly going to jump-ship and forgo a nonstop flight and say flight United via Washington/Dulles just to access a business class lounge. AA flyers connecting in Charlotte to Europe who truly value a business class lounge can just connect via another AA hub. 

This contrast with say Chicago, where AA has fewer year-round flights with a Flagship Business cabin than Charlotte does, but a lounge is necessary for competitive reasons in the higher-yielding Chicagoland market. 

AA's COO recently spoke about the third London flight and said "the Charlotte metro area is smaller than San Antonio yet the city works so well for the airline that they can fill a third Heathrow trip with customers in New Bern, North Carolina, Knoxville, Tennessee.”

You aren't attracting high-value traffic if you are chasing the transatlantic from New Bern.

Is there a significant price difference between the AA RDU to London flight compared to the CLT route to warrant the longer trip to Charlotte? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, carolina1792 said:

Is there a significant price difference between the AA RDU to London flight compared to the CLT route to warrant the longer trip to Charlotte? 

His comment was poorly worded. He wasn't discussing people driving from New Bern to Charlotte to fly to London. 

New Bern was just highlighted to show that AA is chasing low-yielding connecting traffic in CLT (hence why Knoxville was also given as an example)...New Bern could easily be replaced with Birmingham, Huntsville, Baton Rouge, etc. 

In any case, looking at random dates this summer, a standard (non-Basic) Economy ticket from New Bern to London via Charlotte ranges from $1000 to  $1500 R/T. The Raleigh nonstop ranges from $1500 to 1900 R/T.

Edited by LKN704
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.