Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[atlrvr]

I ready the article to say that Jerry supported the use of airport bonds to build a heavy-rail/commuter rail/HSR station out by Wilkinson that could be used to connect to the new Gateway Station. I support that far more than a streetcar. I would assume the people mover would eventually connect the terminals to the station, like SkyTrain in Newark.

[kermit]

I am all for a heavy rail connection to the airport -- it would extend its reach out as far as Greensboro (and Columbia and Greenville if SC ever embraced rail transit). This would cement our status as an international hub and slightly improve OD traffic. However the lower frequency of heavy rail would do nothing to improve connectivity between the airport and downtown for residents and visitors. The Sprinter is a fine stopgap, but if you look around the developed world, high-frequency rail transit connections to the airport are becoming the norm.

In a world of unlimited resources I vote for two rail connections to the airport, one heavy for SEHSR service and one light (perhaps an LRT / Streetcar hybrid) -- preferably modifying the original 2020(?) plan to have a transit axis running from the west to east (Airport - Gateway - Blue Line / Transit Center - East Side via Monroe rd). This would reduce the degree to which Gateway is isolated from the Blue Line and provide a cheap opportunity for a park and ride at 485 (near 85).

Sure its super expensive, but I think this sort of dual connectivity is necessary in order to have an integrated transit system in Mecklenburg county.

[dubone]

I didn't think about the railroad option. I wouldn't serve the in-between neighborhoods very much as a transit corridor, but I have always really liked the idea that this would be infrastructure that would directional fit in with the high speed rail corridor to Atlanta. Realistically, as kermit mentioned, that is a good strategy similar to how Newark-Liberty has the rail connection.

Also, improvements the airport helps to make to the Norfolk-Southern corridor to uptown will benefit the freight corridor to the new intermodal yards and the long term HSR corridor.

Honestly, even though N-S doesn't like passenger rail much, I have a feeling Jerry Orr has some sway with them.

[HopHead]

I don't see why the airport can't somehow work with the businesses based in uptown on funding for the light rail line. We're talking what? ~6 miles? You don't need a lot of stops, at least not initially, between uptown and the airport. For arguments sake, lets say we get them to contribute $100 million total. Then fund the remaining with a $1 or $2 surcharge on flights from CLT. I think the ROI would be huge. It may not make some cab companies happy, but in the long run it would only help businesses and may even draw more employment in center city.

Edited March 20, 2012 by dbull75

[New Name]

^I had a conversation with some folks at the CRVA & CCP asking (just out of curiosity) what route they take visitors/delegates/movers/shakers from the Airport into Uptown. They said they struggle with that question - because Wilkinson is not the most beautiful street, West Blvd has issues, I-77 or I-85 doesn't make a lot of sense and it's a great way to see the real city.... and the answer was: Wilkinson.... but they usually try to talk the whole time so as to distract the visitors... or ask them to please just close their eyes.

You'd think there would be a real priority in designing a functional and pleasing corridor from the airport to Uptown.

[southslider]

^There are large segments outside South End along the Blue Line that aren't yet something to show off. And the BLE will run on North Tryon Street. My point being, where is the faith that Wilkinson could someday transform, if it had light rail, like South Boulevard and North Tryon?

[kermit]

I agree a nice airport boulevard would be nice to have but I can't think of any US city that has such a thing. I am not saying they don't exist, just that I haven't noticed anything other than a uniform pattern of airport parking --> light industrial or suburban shopping (depending on airport age) --> below median income neighborhoods --> downtown.

Are there any good examples of nice airport corridors in the US?

[ajfunder]

Denver airport, highway and plains. Not exactly developed but not run down either.

[southslider]

Are there any good examples of nice airport corridors in the US?

Maybe Tyson's Corner, Fairfax County, Virginia. Not exactly walk-friendly, but fairly high-income.

[ScottCLT]

Update on the airport upfit:

It looks like they are going to be putting in a jumbotron (or a lot of smaller monitors) in the Atrium on either side of what used to be the BofA business center. There are a ton of power plugs built into the mount, which would make me think that they were just arrival/departure monitors, but there are new arrival/departure monitors in sight of it already.

Also, looks like the last of the CRTs for the arrival/departure monitors are being replaced with LCDs in the concourses. they have been removed.

Many of the visual paging LCD displays are now up. No paging yet, just generic messages about CLT. It's amazing how just putting up a bunch of LCDs everywhere can make the airport look so much better than those old CRTs.

The new mini-food court in D looks nice. Pinkberry is now open - it's been a while since I have been on the D concourse, so this might not be a new development. But I do love some Pinkberry, more than the other froyo places, so I will be hitting this place up every chance I get in the airport (which is probably too often).

[dubone]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/04/08/3158982/airport-bets-a-billion-on-future.html

Interesting summary of all the upcoming projects at the airport, and the idea that it could be folly considering other airports that did it.

Does anyone know if the entrance connection to Little Rock Road interchange on 85 (hopefully it will also be re-named to be airport-related when done) is going to have the bridge over Wilkinson as long planned or are they going to do it on the cheap and make it a surface intersection? I know there was some talk of that a while back.

Given the price tag of all the big parking decks, it does seem more within reach for the airport to fund a ~5 mile transit connection to uptown as a cost avoidance project of additional parking decks.

[southslider]

Does anyone know if the entrance connection to Little Rock Road interchange on 85 (hopefully it will also be re-named to be airport-related when done) is going to have the bridge over Wilkinson as long planned or are they going to do it on the cheap and make it a surface intersection?

Nope. There will be a new signal at Wilkinson Boulevard. And as far as I know, the State won't connect the new entrance road with I-85 anytime soon. Hence, there will be two, offset, signalized intersections on Wilkinson-- Little Rock and the Airport.

[dubone]

Wait, so this new intersection will only be 3 way, so from 85 you take the current Little rock route, left on Wilkinson and right onto a new road???

As long as they are connecting it all the way through, it isn't the end of the world to be a surface intersection. Wlkinson in this area is pretty well dedicated to airport-related projects, so it while 'on the cheap' it still serves the airport in 3 directions. It is beyond me they ever built the ridiculous John Birmingham freeway to Billy Graham when 85 was so close by.

$21m seems a lot for a surface blvd that is only .6 mi long, but maybe I'm out of touch with costs these days.

[southslider]

Wait, so this new intersection will only be 3 way, so from 85 you take the current Little rock route, left on Wilkinson and right onto a new road???

Yep, until the State finishes the gap north of Wilkinson Boulevard. However, that project remains unfunded, so folks will need to make multiple turns at multiple lights.

[dubone]

What.

The.

Fu.

[dubone]

This is an example of complete bureauidiocy, while our 'local' NCDOT rep sits at his desk in Albemarle.

Surely the city can swoop in and ask to take over. It is only 800 FEET to get the rest of the way from Wilkinson to Little Rock. How is it possible that the state cannot participate in filling that gap if they absolutely must control that section. Better yet, the airport should just go ahead and pave it, the state reps would probably never even know.

What a mess.

[tozmervo]

is there a masterplan of this roadwork buried somewhere in the thread? i'm having a little trouble understanding what this new road is supposed to be.

[dubone]

Go to http://vc.charmeck.org and look at the dashed freeway just north of the airport terminal.

The idea has always been to connect Little Rock to the primary entrance to the airport. So apparently, the airport will go ahead with the portion south of Wilkinson, leaving a tiny 1/6 of a mile between Wilkinson and Little Rock. So even with this new road built, it will still be awkward to get to the airport from the Little Rock exit on 85.

Not to mention it will not be a 'freeway'-type road afterall anyway. So we will have a freeway from the airport to the non-freeway Billy Graham, but a regular road to interstate 85, even though it would only require one bridge.

[NcSc74]

I've been scouting around the net for reactions to the expansion plans and for the most part it has been status quo.

The skeptics cant believe it will happen and the haters(for lack of better words) have nothing but near demeaning things to say about the plans, the city, and US. I am a reasonable guy and I look at things in a realistic and objective light. But the comments that I have just about gone in one or two categories-

1.How dare Charlotte a city in NC try to expand and aspire to compete with ATL ever. How dare does that little so-called 2nd largest banking center try to do things to attract more business and international flights who do they think they are. Everyone knows NYC handles all the important banking and having all of that banking infrastructure is nothing anymore. Thats all they have is banking and their economy is not diverse enough.

2. Why would any international flights even want to go to Charlotte they dont have enough clout like bigger cities, heck even St. Louis can handle more flights than the Charlotte metro could.

I know itseems a little hyper sensitive but a born and raised person from NC knows what the perception is of the state. We can never get any respect and even when we have a shining star liike CLT to smile and brag about there are folks who just gotta bring her down. Its like the blue bloods want to keep all of the great things to eat at their table and give the scraps to the riff raff. To sum this all up I am excited to hear news of this expansion and I am keeping my fingers crossed it all gets built to plan. Also I hope if the merger does happen the new entity will expand out of Charlotte and shut these skeptics up. Keep aspiring Charlotte keep growing and always keep that chip on your shoulder like a true North Carolinian would. OK i feel better now.

P.S If you must know, I paraphrased the comments and they can be found on the various airline and aircraft websites in the forums.

[dubone]

The key is that our airport management have been extreme misers for a very long time and are able to do these enhancements after they are long overdue. And the fact that they can do things like new runways on the cheap (the runways are the only the comparison to ATL), and since that is the core function of an airport, then why not do that?

By doing expansions that we already need or will need in the near term over the next decade while maintaining ultra low airline fees, it becomes a no brainer. Infrastructure is the foundation for economic activity, so it makes sense to build it as long as we are not over-leveraging ourselves to do so.

[carolinagarnet]

Here, here, NcSc74! Ambitious mid-size cities will always receive the ambivalence of mega cities and the scorn of dying Rust Belt cities. I read an article about Charlotte somewhere recently (US Airways in-flight magazine maybe?) about how the city is becoming an energy capital a la Houston. Then again, it would be great not to be tied to any one industry.

As for the expansion, it seems long overdue. I know it has been discussed as a possibility, but it just doesn't seem like a US-Delta deal would be approved and I know Charlotte looks like the best candidate for expansion in the case of a US-American merger. The one downside of an expansion is that our beloved airport may soon resemble larger airports like Atlanta and O'Hare in the difficulty of commuting between terminals. My hope is that the expansion still maintains the ease of transferring between terminals as well as the Southern charm. I have not seen the plans for the new terminal, but my hope is that the airport remains easy to move through, much like Reagan.

[kermit]

Could we, as a group, develop an estimated cost for rail transit from the airport to downtown? If we could come up with a number we could begin the process of evaluating its feasibility and perhaps identifying some funding sources.

While I suspect that Jerry Orr might be willing to pay for the airport portion of he route (but not much more than that), an uptown development district special assment might generate a bit more cash outside of CATS if the link were sold to business.

[Urbanity]

I know itseems a little hyper sensitive but a born and raised person from NC knows what the perception is of the state. We can never get any respect and even when we have a shining star liike CLT to smile and brag about there are folks who just gotta bring her down. Its like the blue bloods want to keep all of the great things to eat at their table and give the scraps to the riff raff. To sum this all up I am excited to hear news of this expansion and I am keeping my fingers crossed it all gets built to plan. Also I hope if the merger does happen the new entity will expand out of Charlotte and shut these skeptics up. Keep aspiring Charlotte keep growing and always keep that chip on your shoulder like a true North Carolinian would. OK i feel better now.

If it provides any context, being originally from NYC we always thought of Atlanta as that nice little city that wanted to be like us - And NO I am not picking on Atlanta - I like Atlanta - I'm just saying that its all relative.

Back on point about the CLT - I love Jerry Orrs plans and think it will continue to aid us as a city in growth.

[cltbwimob]

Something I would like to see Jerry do is to expand the cargo portion of the business. It seems that with a large intermodal rail yard, 2 major interstates and eventually the Garden Parkway (regardless of your feelings about the project) plus 3 parallel runways, the airport would be a prime place for expanding air cargo. I would like to see a major cargo airline (i.e. ABX/DHL) and a smaller cargo airline (i.e. Kalitta, Atlas, Polar) to build air cargo hubs in Charlotte. Additionally, I would like to see more international cargo airlines such as Lufthansa Cargo, Cathay Pacific Cargo, Icelandair Cargo, Air France Cargo, China Cargo Airlines, and Cargolux operating out of CLT.

[HopHead]

Could we, as a group, develop an estimated cost for rail transit from the airport to downtown? If we could come up with a number we could begin the process of evaluating its feasibility and perhaps identifying some funding sources.

While I suspect that Jerry Orr might be willing to pay for the airport portion of he route (but not much more than that), an uptown development district special assment might generate a bit more cash outside of CATS if the link were sold to business.

I'd love to see what this would cost and how we could get it funded. Perhaps we can give a UP-sponsored presentation to Mr. Orr