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Rhode Island Commuter Rail Proposals

Cotuit

By Cotuit
in Rhode Island

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Frankie811 City

Frankie811

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Deller: Providence is a suburb of Boston"????  Maybe in a commuting sense, but hardly...

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Hmmmm I couldn't believe he said that. I'm like, whattttttttt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But where does Boston's suburb's end anyway's? Foxboro, Mansfield, Sharon, Walpole? Exactly where does Boston's suburb's end, and Providence's begins :blush:

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Mike D Whistle-Stop

Mike D

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Deller works for the City of Providence and he actually said that. I'm surprised that he would.

I always thought the towns in Bristol County, Mass were considered Providence suburbs. I believe the Providence MSA includes that part of Mass as does the Providence TV market. I suppose the Bristol County line could be considered the dividing line between the Providence and Boston metros, but even then, since they're so close to each other, there will be some overlap between them.

Either way, RI should be getting additional commuter rail service and getting it seven days a week too.

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Cotuit Megalopolis

Cotuit

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The official line is Bristol County, MA. Bristol County is part of Providence's metro. But we all know that people commute from Bristol County, and Providence, and points south to Boston. Providence is a Boston suburb and until/unless we start getting some businesses of our own, we will continue to be.

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Baines Hamlet

Baines

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The official line is Bristol County, MA. Bristol County is part of Providence's metro. But we all know that people commute from Bristol County, and Providence, and points south to Boston. Providence is a Boston suburb and until/unless we start getting some businesses of our own, we will continue to be.

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Well, I totally dispute that conclusion on several grounds.

First, the economic influence and impact (including media, economic, political, health, transportation, and education) of Boston DOES NOT EXTEND to the Providence Metro - who reads the Boston rag papers?- as evidenced by the Provdence Journal (rated as best in NE), it's TV and radio stations, the nation reputation of colleges in Providence, the national businesses based in the metro, and the political and transportation realities of two distinct areas.

Second, the geographic distance between the two and the size of Providence does not lead itself to any Boston impact like it has on it's actual suburbs. A "suburb" does not stand alone! This is not Cambridge.

Again, Providence has it's own sphere of influence (media, economic, political, health, transportation, education) that extends to most of RI and deep into southern Mass. It has not changed for two centuries and there is no indication it will...if anything, just the opposite.

Third, one could argue that as Boston's population is declining there is only one reason why major financial institutions and other corporations stay there...the cost of brick and mortar (building costs) are the same - otherwise many would move to Providence now (this came from the President of the Boston firm designing the Westin).

The people of is city have got to break that mentality of "baby Bs". By the way, absolutely stupid statement by Deller...exactly the wrong message to draw those businesses to Providence.

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Recchia Town

Recchia

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I think it could either way, depending on what you're looking at. You are right Baines, Providence media, entertainment, newspapers, etc. definitely are distinct from Boston's, and Providence can and does stand alone from the city of Boston. Also, many people from Providence fail to acknowledge/visit Boston, except in the area of sports. Providence residents have their own distinct mentality/personality, and view themselves as nothing near Bostonians. Even the Providence accent has a distinct sound from Boston's (I've heard many people say Providence people sound like New Yorkers).

On the other hand, you can't deny the transportation and historical linkages between the two cities, and the fact that many new additions to the city of Providence are Boston employees seeking cheaper housing. So even though they do function differently, they are inherently linked by these commuters and even some companies that have offices in both Boston and Providence.

To get back on topic-the South County Commuter Rail just goes to show how the cities are linked; the DOT wants the MBTA to run the line.

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CtownMikey Burg

CtownMikey

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Third, one could argue that as Boston's population is declining there is only one reason why major financial institutions and other corporations stay there...the cost of brick and mortar (building costs) are the same - otherwise many would move to Providence now (this came from the President of the Boston firm designing the We

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So what is Providence doing to change this?? Can anything be done??

I really consider the next 2 to 6 years to be one of Providence's most important and crucial times as a growing city.. and after that.. IF we have failed at attracting residents and businesses AND failed at making a self dependent downcity neighborhood, I think it will be a very long time until everything lines up correctly where we have a great chance to grow

it really seems to boil down to

1. having the lowest building costs (or at least lower than boston's)

2. having improved school systems

and 3.those ballsy businesses taking a chance and coming to providence.

I know I sound negative, but I'm not. I will be very surprised if Prov. doesn't get high marks in all categories.

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Cotuit Megalopolis

Cotuit

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According to the US Census, Providence is still it's own distinct metropolitan area, but that doesn't change the fact that we are extremely tied to Boston. A lot of the things you say about Providence could be said about Manchester, NH, yet Manchester is officially within the Boston metropolitan area.

First, the economic influence and impact (including media, economic, political, health, transportation, and education) of Boston DOES NOT EXTEND to the Providence Metro - who reads the Boston rag papers?- as evidenced by the Provdence Journal (rated as best in NE), it's TV and radio stations, the nation reputation of colleges in Providence, the national businesses based in the metro, and the political and transportation realities of two distinct areas.

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The Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (the Massachusetts Bay is the body of water Boston sits on) comes to Providence, not Manchester.

The Boston rag papers like the Boston Globe? Sure ProJo earned a best of NE award, so has the Cape Cod Times in the past, neither is the Boston Globe. Providence's weekly arts paper is an offshoot of the Boston based Phoenix. Boston's two gay and lesbian newspapers are widely circulated in Rhode Island, and are weeklies, Rhode Island only has a monthly gay & lesbian paper, if you want to stay up to date, you read the Boston ones. If I want to know what's up at Providence's clubs, I read the Boston papers.

Manchester and Worcester have their own TV stations, but they are Boston suburbs.

Our colleges are certainly great, RISD beats MassArt, but Brown ain't no Harvard.

We have our own medical facilities, but my boss just went to a specialist in Boston the other day. People are med-flighted from Rhode Island to Boston all the time. That doesn't chepen us, but it's a fact. Thank god we have those Boston hospitals so close by.

We have our own state politics, but so does Manchester. So does Stamford, CT and Newark, NJ in comparison to New York.

Our transportation reality is that we have more commuter rail trains to Boston than Worcester does, and we'll soon have even more. We have our own bus system, but so does Worcester, so does Lowell.

Second, the geographic distance between the two and the size of Providence does not lead itself to any Boston impact like it has on it's actual suburbs. A "suburb" does not stand alone! This is not Cambridge.

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We're slightly further from Boston than Worcester, and slightly closer to Boston than Manchester.

Again, Providence has it's own sphere of influence (media, economic, political, health, transportation, education) that extends to most of RI and deep into southern Mass. It has not changed for two centuries and there is no indication it will...if anything, just the opposite.

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Yes we do, but the decline in manufacturing has hit us hard, we're not the city we used to be. Growing up on Cape Cod I can say that Rhode Island had an influence on us in that we got both Boston and Rhode Island television, and we could get Providence radio, but not Boston. However the Boston Globe and Herald were widely available, and no ProJo to be seen. Rhode Island had an influence, but we were undoubtedly Boston-centric

New Bedford and Fall River, which are officially within the Providence metro are clamboring for commuter rail service to Boston, not Providence.

Third, one could argue that as Boston's population is declining there is only one reason why major financial institutions and other corporations stay there...the cost of brick and mortar (building costs) are the same - otherwise many would move to Providence now (this came from the President of the Boston firm designing the Westin).

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Well Boston workers and (hopefully) Boston firms are (will be) moving to Providence largely because we are within the Boston sphere. People can remain in touch with the Boston market. These people and businesses are not moving to Burlington, VT or Portland, ME, not because they are not great vibrant cities, but because they are too far from Boston. Many more people and businesses are moving to New Hampshire however, which is why they are officially part of the Boston metro and we are not, yet. More movement of people and businesses moving from Boston will make us more part of Boston, not more independent of it.

The people of is city have got to break that mentality of "baby Bs". By the way, absolutely stupid statement by Deller...exactly the wrong message to draw those businesses to Providence.

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Deller's choice of words was perhaps bad, we aren't a suburb in the bedroom community sense that a town like Sharon, MA is. But we are well within the orbit of Boston, if not officially by government standards. We are certainly more independent from Boston than cities like Worcester or Manchester, but we're not completely independent.

We have a culture and identity and that is a big advantage we have. We're not Springfield, hanging off on it's own in a weird corner of the region. We are firmly within the Boston-New York megalopolis, and we should embrace that fact. I keep hearing about small companies moving here from New York. Part of the reason they are moving here is for our identity and our culture, but we can't ignore the fact that our proximity to larger cities is a huge marketing tool for us.

If we become officially part of the Boston metro, that's not going to change our culture. Sure it's cool to look at a metro ranking and see Providence at 35 or wherever we are, but if we become number 6, Boston, MA-NH-RI, that's not going to change the public's perception of us.

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eltron Hamlet

eltron

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Perfect explanation, Cotuit.

I was about to support your contention that Providence is very much within Boston's sphere of influence, but you beat me to it.

Its simply a matter of Boston being BY FAR the largest, and really only "primary" city in New England, with Providence falling squarely into the "secondary" city category, Fall River and Woonsocket falling into "tertiery" and so on.

Not to take anything away from Providence, but Boston is definitely the dominant city in the region.

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glassandsteel Whistle-Stop

glassandsteel

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The impact of this station, I believe, is greatly underestimated. I work at Leviton on Jefferson blvd, right across the street from where this is going. If you don't frequent the area then you might not know that it is quietly growing into what may become an impressive urban core. The Hilton Garden Inn (the second of two recently built hotels on either side of where I work) just opened recently, and an office building is being built up the street. Dense residential is being planned along with more hotels, offices, entertainment, and retail. This is all focused around maximizing on the station's potential. Now, where I work is pretty much opposite of the airport from the station. They are a cost-inefficient operation sitting on tons of unused land with a cool, "old-mill" section worthy of being reused for something. The complex itself is enormous and there are countless acres of unused land around the back all the way to the highway. My assumption has been for quite some time, that most of the available land immediately around the station site will become developed either prior or soon after the project's completion. When the appetite for land in the area reaches the point of favorable land prices, cash in your chips.

Basically, Warwick is positioning itself so as to embrace the urbanization that comes with it's growth. Hell, they are Rhode Island's second-largest city, they might as well start running with it.

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Recchia Town

Recchia

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I completely agree. Train stations have enormous economic impacts on their surrounding areas. I was so happy to see the Hilton Garden Inn built right up to the street---this could be the beginning of a more "urban" Jefferson Blvd. The area has so much potential in the sense that it already has a lot of denser housing (the old mill homes and some duplexes off Post Road and Kilvert Street), so it won't be hard to justify more.

Thank God the Warwick station site is trying to be more than just a park n ride, like Wickford Junction is going to be.... Anybody see how they were trying to make Wickford Junction into a TOD? I had to laugh, theres no way anyone in North Kingstown would EVER allow enough density to have a TOD. Too many NIMBY's, and too many groundwater restrictions.

East Greenwich station, if it is ever planned and built, will be much more like Warwick and Pawtucket, beleive it or not. The area is near the old landfill and has enormous potential for dense redevelopment. In fact, two new 3 story condo projects are currently being built about two blocks away from the site. Plus the area is adjacent to the very walkable Main St. historic district, and already experiences strong RIPTA ridership.

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Recchia Town

Recchia

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Have they completely leveled all the buildings and houses that are connected with this project? Amtrak is playing hardball by asking high fees for the MBTA to use their tracks. Talks are ongoing.

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For the train station itself, I think only a small part of D'Ambra's property next door needs to be bought.

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Frankie811 City

Frankie811

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Is there talk of a new Providence Amtrak station?

There is a RISD architecture advanced studio class this next semester about designing a new Providence Amtrak station.

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No, there is no talk that I know of for a new Amtrak station in Providence, but why would there be. There's nothing wrong with the current one which was built in the late 80's or early 90's. The only station being mentioned around here is the one proposed for Warwick.

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Cotuit Megalopolis

Cotuit

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Personally, I'd be happy to see us get a new train station, the one we have is far too small for future needs. Long term future, but I also think it is too small for upcoming South County Service.

I don't know of any plans to replace it though. The current proposals would be for Warwick T.F. Green as Frankie mentioned, then perhaps North Kingstown, Cranston near Park Ave., East Greenwich, and Pawtucket.

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mr2448 Whistle-Stop

mr2448

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Personally, I'd be happy to see us get a new train station, the one we have is far too small for future needs. Long term future, but I also think it is too small for upcoming South County Service.

I don't know of any plans to replace it though. The current proposals would be for Warwick T.F. Green as Frankie mentioned, then perhaps North Kingstown, Cranston near Park Ave., East Greenwich, and Pawtucket.

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Providence Place was originally designed to include a station or at least a platform extension from the present station to allow direct access to the mall. But, Massachusett politicians felt it would draw retail trade away from established Mass. shopping areas. Maybe the extension could be built to accomodate those South County commuters and give them a choice of access to Providence?

Any new station will need tons of parking and, I hope, an area to allow coordinated RIPTA bus service. This is the reality of the new stations; although, I would love to see the original Apponaug and East Greenwich stations put back to use. Cranston proximity to Warwick may not allow a station at all. Any place near Park Avenue will not have enough parking and only be 3 miles from the Warwick station.

Maybe the old Lakeside spur, this crosses Elmwood Avenue, could be put into action by having a station built near Warwick Avenue? This would be real local service!

Mark

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Recchia Town

Recchia

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Any place near Park Avenue will not have enough parking and only be 3 miles from the Warwick station. 

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If you use structured parking, the number of spots are practically endless. However, the plan for Cranston is to incorporate TOD around the station, so the demand for parking would be minimized by many people being able to walk to it. Same for East Greenwich, but on a smaller scale.

Right now it looks like the Cranston station would more likely be either LRT or BRT as opposed to Commuter Rail.

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