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WaterFire

CtownMikey

By CtownMikey
in Providence

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urbie Whistle-Stop

urbie

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Providence rivers set to glow once more with WaterFire. At a news conference yesterday, WaterFire organizers said the popular display would return for at least 11 full lightings this year, with the first set for Saturday, May 26. http://www.projo.com/ri/providence/content...F0.34c7ebd.html

Geezus -- it costs $100,000 to do one lighting? I'm in the wrong line of work!

Still, it's kind of hard to believe they'd have trouble raising enough money from businesses in the area -- from the crowds generated, it would seem like the ultimate no-brainer. Or do a lot of proprietors just like to get a free ride?

Urb

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runawayjim Metropolis

runawayjim

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Geezus -- it costs $100,000 to do one lighting? I'm in the wrong line of work!

Still, it's kind of hard to believe they'd have trouble raising enough money from businesses in the area -- from the crowds generated, it would seem like the ultimate no-brainer. Or do a lot of proprietors just like to get a free ride?

Urb

i find it hard to believe that it costs $100k... i heard last year that it was $10k to do a lighting, which is understandable.

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Cotuit Megalopolis

Cotuit

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Geezus -- it costs $100,000 to do one lighting? I'm in the wrong line of work!

What the what! :o

How could it cost that much? I suppose it could cost that much, but that seems crazy. Something that would push up the price is the police details, I wonder if the city gives them a deal on those.

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brick Burg

brick

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What the what! :o

How could it cost that much? I suppose it could cost that much, but that seems crazy. Something that would push up the price is the police details, I wonder if the city gives them a deal on those.

There are the police details, there is the cleanup, etc. etc.

I have friends who are event planners and it is amazing how fast things add up.

That said, does Waterfire really need 40 (!!!) board members? Are they volunteer or do they get a stipend, I wonder? There are also 6 officers, I believe. Waterfire Providence is a not-for-profit organization, but that doesn't mean these people don't get paid. I assume there are some other overhead costs in the organization.

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oak Unincorporated Area

oak

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That said, does Waterfire really need 40 (!!!) board members? Are they volunteer or do they get a stipend, I wonder? There are also 6 officers, I believe. Waterfire Providence is a not-for-profit organization, but that doesn't mean these people don't get paid. I assume there are some other overhead costs in the organization.

They have 40 Board Members so they have a large pool of people to raise $ from. Take a look at how many area non-profits have "advisory" boards that are separate from the fiduciary board - a common non-profit practice. Some of the advisory boards have at least 40 people. Board members are volunteers and the only payment they receive is Waterfire schwag - hats, totebags etc.

I have a friend who was laid off from Waterfire last year and he was one of several staff let go. I suspect Waterfire is on shaky financial ground.

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brick Burg

brick

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They have 40 Board Members so they have a large pool of people to raise $ from. Take a look at how many area non-profits have "advisory" boards that are separate from the fiduciary board - a common non-profit practice. Some of the advisory boards have at least 40 people. Board members are volunteers and the only payment they receive is Waterfire schwag - hats, totebags etc.

I have a friend who was laid off from Waterfire last year and he was one of several staff let go. I suspect Waterfire is on shaky financial ground.

To be clear I don't think they are skimming. I'm just saying that they have overhead.

When people think of the cost of a Waterfire, they think "all the boat people are volunteers and they can't use more than $5K worth of wood, so how can it cost so much?" But, as Cotuit mentions, there are public safety issues that the city doesn't give away for free, I'm sure there are other logistics, etc.

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runawayjim Metropolis

runawayjim

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To be clear I don't think they are skimming. I'm just saying that they have overhead.

When people think of the cost of a Waterfire, they think "all the boat people are volunteers and they can't use more than $5K worth of wood, so how can it cost so much?" But, as Cotuit mentions, there are public safety issues that the city doesn't give away for free, I'm sure there are other logistics, etc.

at this point, i'm almost surprised the city isn't giving a huge discount or paying for the police details. waterfire is so important to the success of providence and continued success of providence, that you'd think the city would donate more through paying for the police and helping with cleanup etc.

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markOne Whistle-Stop

markOne

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I'm not that surprised the number is that high, assuming that figure is the "true cost" of doing business spread over the 11 lightings, not just what is spent in consumables in one lighting.

As Brick pointed out they have overhead. As Oak pointed out the board members are not (based on my experience with non-profits) a significant part of that overhead, they are there largely as a form of big donor stewardship. It is harder to say "no" when asked to donate when you are on the board. They get perks and clout for their time and money but it is usually more than worth it for the organization.

One small example of overhead (I know nothing of how they really run the org but this is one possible scenario)

4 employees making 30K/year on average (not exactly big money)

factor in additional employee overhead like soc sec tax, health care and other incidentals (like desks, etc.)

figure a total cost per employee of 45K

4 employees cost a total of 180K/year

divide that by 11 lightings

the staff costs you $16,364 per lighting and you don't even have anything to light on fire yet.

They have to maintain a web site, rent office space, do constant public relations, find both private and corporate donors, liaise with the city and all of its departments (that should be easy right ;) ), maintain the boats, stage wood all over the place, book the artists, maintain the braziers, etc. There's a lot to do and it all takes money. It's not all done by volunteers and the required services are not all donated.

Maybe they have less staff (unlikely they spend less than 180K per year IMO), maybe they have more. Overhead is an unavoidable factor and cutting overhead is risky since it often reduces your ability to raise money and down the spiral you go.

All of this doesn't even factor in the additional police, fire, ambulance, cleaning, etc. details the city requires for events like this. I've worked many events which bring in big money to cities and the organizer (often a non-profit) paid big money to the municipality to cover these expenses.

Unfortunately lots of people, in lots of different lines of work, make money off of non-profit events which are doing really good work and deserve a break. I should know, when I was a sound engineer non-profits paid a good portion of my wage. I did plenty of free/discounted work but if it did it for everyone I would have been homeless. When you involve that many people and they all take a piece the total budget gets really big.

For what it's worth I've worked on much smaller one-off events with a budget bigger than the entire year's budget for Waterfire. A 1.1 million dollar budget for events reaching somewhere between 110,000-and 330,000 people (10-30K per lighting) doesn't seem so bad to me.

I wonder what the cost per lighting would be if they could get back to 16+ lightings/year. I bet it would drop to less than 85K if it could be done with only a small increase in overhead.

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markOne Whistle-Stop

markOne

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folks who wonder how much it costs to do stuff like waterfire or curious about how much non profits bring in can go to this site, register and search. This information is available to the public via IRS filings.

Guidestar is a great site and can really help you understand more about who non-profits work. (reading the IRS 990's can really help when researching potential employers since it's nice to know if they are in good financial shape before you go work for them :) )

Btw I was keeping the previous scenario extremely small scale and generic to illustrate the point that things get expensive quickly.

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Cotuit Megalopolis

Cotuit

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at this point, i'm almost surprised the city isn't giving a huge discount or paying for the police details. waterfire is so important to the success of providence and continued success of providence, that you'd think the city would donate more through paying for the police and helping with cleanup etc.

The city and *I believe* the state do give money to WaterFire, but they can't be giving away city services for free. That's a slippery slope, every event sponsor could argue that they provide added value to the city, which ones get price cuts and freebies, and which don't? The city works around this by giving grants to WaterFire (and I'm sure many other events), then basically gets the money back by charging for city services, in effect providing free services. I can tell you one thing, the cops and other city workers devoted to WaterFire will not work for free, in fact I would imagine their contracts wouldn't even allow them to volunteer.

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runawayjim Metropolis

runawayjim

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The city and *I believe* the state do give money to WaterFire, but they can't be giving away city services for free. That's a slippery slope, every event sponsor could argue that they provide added value to the city, which ones get price cuts and freebies, and which don't? The city works around this by giving grants to WaterFire (and I'm sure many other events), then basically gets the money back by charging for city services, in effect providing free services. I can tell you one thing, the cops and other city workers devoted to WaterFire will not work for free, in fact I would imagine their contracts wouldn't even allow them to volunteer.

i'm sure the city workers and cops there for waterfire are getting time and a half or double time. good to know about the grants though.

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Cotuit Megalopolis

Cotuit

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The city bills $47.92 per hour for a Patrolperson and up through the ranks from there to $83.10 per hour for a Major, but they don't work many details. There are Sergeants ($54.98/hour) and Lieutentants ($60.02/hour) working for sure. When their are 4 or more Patrolpersons they send a supervisor as well. And $15.00 for a patrolcar, and there's usually a police boat, that is an additional $20.00 per hour (the Department may kick that in for free for the PR value). Horses are $313.38 for up to 6 hours, but they have to rest every hour or so (ordering a horse detail is such a waste).

I'd say the police details easily approach $10,000 for the night.

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urbie Whistle-Stop

urbie

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Unfortunately lots of people, in lots of different lines of work, make money off of non-profit events which are doing really good work and deserve a break. I should know, when I was a sound engineer non-profits paid a good portion of my wage. I did plenty of free/discounted work but if it did it for everyone I would have been homeless. When you involve that many people and they all take a piece the total budget gets really big.

Oh, I totally understand -- the $100K/lighting figure jumped out at me, but things do add up, when you start considering the total cost; no problem with that.

I can't tell you how many times I've been told, "It's a benefit, so your band should be happy with 13 bucks a guy." That's why my musicians' union newsletter used to carry a reminder saying, "Remember: no one donates unless EVERYONE donates: the headliner, the venue, the caterer, security, etc." People love to save money on the band by telling them it's a benefit -- but unless everyone's working for free, I ain't working for free, I'll tell ya that....

Urb

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runawayjim Metropolis

runawayjim

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I understand how they don't want Waterfire to become a flea market, but I think they really need to explore some other options as far as bringing in revenues. I don't know how the politics of it could work, since it would be on public property, but I would imagine that they could bring in some money simply by charging for space for people to sell things. I can also imagine that there would be some money to be made from merchandise, which i don't see there being a lot of.

One question I have always had , though, is why the Waterfire organization is so big? I am not talking about the leadership end, but they seem to have an awful lot of full time staff for a bi-weekly event.

they need staff to get companies to sponsor and to raise funds for it.

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ruchele Hamlet

ruchele

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Here's a question: Do the shops on Westminster have any intention of staying open late on WaterFire nights? If it were publicized right (including big signs pointing where to go) It would be a great incentive for the WaterFire mobs to explore downtown and great publicity for the area for out-of-towners.

If no, well, I think that's a bummer and kind of short-sighted.

This might be in the wrong thread.

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runawayjim Metropolis

runawayjim

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Here's a question: Do the shops on Westminster have any intention of staying open late on WaterFire nights? If it were publicized right (including big signs pointing where to go) It would be a great incentive for the WaterFire mobs to explore downtown and great publicity for the area for out-of-towners.

If no, well, I think that's a bummer and kind of short-sighted.

This might be in the wrong thread.

if they don't, they should... and the open market people should be marketing the hell out of it in conjunction with waterfire saturdays (like this coming saturday). if the mall can stay open until 11 for waterfire nights, i think the westminster shops can stay open until 8 (eno is already open until 10 on saturdays).

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