Optimist Park / Belmont Projects

[deleted account]

1 hour ago, tarhoosier said:

Trader Joe is small enough to fit into a property somewhere around there and perfect for the demographic.

Would absolutely kill here. 

[Desert Power]

18 hours ago, NYtoCLT said:

As for how much retail there is, places aren't static.  I would be shocked if Parkwood and North Davidson look the way they do in 10 years.  Both will be mostly apartments with retail I imagine.  Davidson is already largely there.

The area will certainly continue to change and grow. I've long thought that the OP/Villa Heights stretch bounded by Parkwood, Matheson, Davidson, and Brevard will end up with some of the best density in the city. There are really little to no existing structures that will survive.  Love how this developer is forward thinking.

Just made the retail comment because I think they are going to have a hard time initially being so far from any grocery or drug store. My two cents (as someone who has gone without a car in Charlotte) is that folks trying to save money are going to care much more about that type of retail than what is at Optimist Hall. Could be a hard sell initially.

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Desert Power

[Desert Power]

On 2/22/2021 at 2:13 PM, Urban Cowboy said:

I was poking around and I think I discovered the location of a new 370 unit apartment building planned for Optimist Park. There was also a rezoning request for this site. So we all know Swinerton + Space Craft are currently building an 83 unit apartment building + retail at the corner of Brevard & 22nd. Pictured here:

 

If you go on Space Craft's website (https://spacecraft.city/places/charlotte/), they have another project that's described below:

The corner of Brevard and 21st is a site with alleys. And it's located directly next door to their current project. I also noticed some of these parcels have old Acella requests from 2019 that are tied to Cohab (Space Craft's former name).

Here are photos for this latest project. More are on their site if you're curious.

And here's the kicker... in this photo, you see what I believe is their apartment building that's currently under construction at Brevard and 22nd. Which would imply this new development will be directly next door at Brevard and 21st. Definitely appreciate the unique designs and vision for retail. So many of these new apartment buildings are creating housing, but otherwise promote dead blocks from a street level interaction standpoint. This is super close to the Parkwood Station so they're trying to leverage that access. I wish Cortland NoDa, The Alexan, and Alta Purl had followed lead with some retail or restaurant space given their proximity to Optimist Hall. Once Parkwood's road diet + bike lanes are complete - should be a great pedestrian experience between Optimist Hall and the developments that Swinerton + Space Craft are building. 

Bumping this post about the adjacent lots to the Joinery. Not sure how these plans have evolved over the last year.

[CLT Development]

On 4/2/2022 at 12:02 PM, Desert Power said:

Bumping this post about the adjacent lots to the Joinery. Not sure how these plans have evolved over the last year.

Waiting for proof of concept to succeed.

On 3/30/2022 at 4:41 PM, CLT2014 said:

Reading some of the comments online around news articles about the development is dis-heartening... people are angry at the concept. Since rental rates still start at $1,250+ for a 495 sq. foot studio, people are just viewing this as the developer "taking away" amenities like parking and pools in order to make more money. I'm optimistic they'll find success, but it might just take a little while to fully lease and finding folks that work along the light rail or at home and don't need a car to get to work.

With no consideration of the fact that this was built during the highest construction cost in history. 

[11 HouseBZ]

Photos from the top of the apartments at Brevard and 22nd (The Jointery).

[Reverie39]

Idk why but I'm a sucker for transit rail facilities. Love seeing light rail or heavy rail trains parked like that.

Also some day we need more high-rises on the north end up Uptown. It's weird that you can basically see the entire height of BoA from this angle.

[Desert Power]

On 4/22/2022 at 9:58 AM, 11 HouseBZ said:

Photos from the top of the apartments at Brevard and 22nd (The Jointery).

 

This is a great place for a park or literally anything besides train storage.

[KJHburg]

trying to put this in the right thread.  Here is the Joinery and it will be joined by 350 apartments adjacent I hear.  Plus even more apartments a few blocks in every direction.  

it is truly amazing how N Brevard has changed so rapidly from aging industrial area to huge community of people living there.    25th St LYNX station once called the loneliest light rail station is now surrounded by 1000s of units nearby.   Coffee shop and brewery coming to retail space at the Joinery. 

Edited May 8, 2022 by KJHburg

[Desert Power]

Notice outside the body shop that sits at the corner of Parkwood and Davidson is moving in the fall. I wonder if this is the next block to get a large apartment building

 

[CLT Development]

5 hours ago, Desert Power said:

Notice outside the body shop that sits at the corner of Parkwood and Davidson is moving in the fall. I wonder if this is the next block to get a large apartment building

 

won't be that large, but yes an apartment building. Based on who's doing it, it should have retail, and be imaginative. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by CLT Development

[Desert Power]

1 hour ago, CLT Development said:

won't be that large, but yes an apartment building. Based on who's doing it, it should have retail, and be imaginative. 

Is it the whole block or just that parcel? Looks like they are all owned by the same LLC

[CLT Development]

7 minutes ago, Desert Power said:

Is it the whole block or just that parcel? Looks like they are all owned by the same LLC

I think the former  Abari building gets salvaged and the rest is built around.

Edited May 17, 2022 by CLT Development

[KJHburg]

10 hours ago, CLT Development said:

I think the former  Abari building gets salvaged and the rest is built around.

which developer would that be?

[Nathan2]

This may be slightly off topic... Why are areas like this, with lots of new residential units, not getting small urban grocery stores?  Small urban grocery stores would allow these neighborhoods to truly become walkable 10 minute neighborhoods. Its crazy that people in these areas still have to drive to get to grocery stores. What is stopping developers from providing these essential community stores?

[Prodev]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

which developer would that be?

It's Spacecraft. 

[KJHburg]

20 minutes ago, Nathan2 said:

This may be slightly off topic... Why are areas like this, with lots of new residential units, not getting small urban grocery stores?  Small urban grocery stores would allow these neighborhoods to truly become walkable 10 minute neighborhoods. Its crazy that people in these areas still have to drive to get to grocery stores. What is stopping developers from providing these essential community stores?

Not off topic.  Grocery stores of any size are needed in NoDa Villa Heights area.  Avery Hall has room for  30K sq ft grocer at N tryon and 36th St. and maybe the old Ameilies site could be redeveloped into a full size grocery store with apartments on top.  I would think Harris Teeter or Publix would be interested in this area as they have been rumored to be in the past. 

In terms of really small grocers it is hard in a low margin business to make that work.  I have said for years we need the urban format QuikTrips to open in some of these apartment complexes because they have basic food supplies or even a 7-11 like uptown. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by KJHburg

[CLT2014]

31 minutes ago, Nathan2 said:

This may be slightly off topic... Why are areas like this, with lots of new residential units, not getting small urban grocery stores?  Small urban grocery stores would allow these neighborhoods to truly become walkable 10 minute neighborhoods. Its crazy that people in these areas still have to drive to get to grocery stores. What is stopping developers from providing these essential community stores?

I think this day and age, trying to operate an independent small urban grocery store is really hard.... especially if you are the new kid on the block. You open... and everybody goes "$4.99 for a half gallon of milk!!! No way!" So I don't think developers are opposed... there just aren't a ton of entrepreneurs looking to start this low margin, fiercely competitive business where you need to be a master of supply chain, establishing relationship with hundreds or thousands of suppliers, et. have to throw out inventory constantly, need a decent amount of labor, and need a lot of customer volume to make up for low profit margin. The large grocery stores have so much pricing power and scale to offer prices that independent grocers really struggle against.

We've seen places like Healthy Home Market fail, Organic Harvest Community Market didn't even make it a year, the smaller format Earth Fare brand is a dumpster fire, et.... meanwhile there are large 60,000+ square foot groceries springing up like weeds because they can offer tons of volume on the low margin household staples and premium value added sections like cheese bars, wine bars, prepared foods, et... that are higher margin.

10 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

Not off topic.  Grocery stores of any size are needed in NoDa Villa Heights area.  Avery Hall has room for  30K sq ft grocer at N tryon and 36th St. and maybe the old Ameilies site could be redeveloped into a full size grocery store with apartments on top.  I would think Harris Teeter or Publix would be interested in this area as they have been rumored to be in the past. 

In terms of really small grocers it is hard in a low margin business to make that work.  I have said for years we need the urban format QuikTrips to open in some of these apartment complexes because they have basic food supplies or even a 7-11 like uptown. 

The problem with QT and 7-11 is it is largely highly processed junk food that is shelf stable and full of preservatives. For people that want to make healthy and fresh meals at home... QT and 7-11 aren't helpful and they need to drive to grocery stores with actual produce sections, fresh meats, et... Honestly... as a society.... we probably need less QT's. Making them too convenient almost encourages bad eating. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by CLT2014

[atlrvr]

^^^ reading this above captures where we've gone wrong (or right, depending on perspective) with American grocery needs.

In pre-WW2 America, the idea of a one-stop grocery store wasn't really a thing.  You had butchers, fish mongers, bakers, dry goods, etc **

This removes 1-2 layers of middleman distribution (depending on product), which is a lot of 1) diminished margin, and 2) days on shelf

I suspect most people don't care that much, and prefer the convenience of the "super"-mart.

** Edit:  forgot the the milkman!
 

[TGIBridays]

7 minutes ago, atlrvr said:

In pre-WW2 America, the idea of a one-stop grocery store wasn't really a thing.  You had butchers, fish mongers, bakers, dry goods, etc **

This removes 1-2 layers of middleman distribution (depending on product), which is a lot of 1) diminished margin, and 2) days on shelf

I suspect most people don't care that much, and prefer the convenience of the "super"-mart.

I imagine part of the issue too is that post WW2 sprawl really kicked into high gear. It's one thing to go the butcher, baker, etc. when they're all along main street and another when they're separated by seas of parking.  Reading  Richard Scarry's Busy Town to my toddlers has driven that home to me. 

[videtur quam contuor]

As a boy my neighborhood in Indianapolis had Dave's market. Dave was a butcher and his shop was his custom meat section in the rear and shelves on the sidewalls and center section with basic home items, bread, snacks, canned goods, a cheese and dairy case and so on. A single cash register near the front. I was a regular at the candy rack/baseball cards at the cash register. 

Those in the before times recall, as do I, that the original Reid's grocery from Providence Road and Fenton had a spot on Park Road in the building now Ed's at Ideal Way. Reids occupied the left side of the building as one faces it from the street. Similar to Dave's as a local, neighborhood focussed place with butcher in the back making meat cuts to order for clients. Canned goods and daily basics. I went there rarely as it had a limited selection though I bought my favorite canned soup there which was difficult to find at that time.* The Dilworth location closed sometime in the mid-late 1970's. The Providence location continued for quite some time until Chuck Edwards bought it and it transitioned to what we know today as Reid's.

*Campbell's tomato bisque. This also serves to describe how insular Charlotte was at the time.

 

edit to add this:

https://www.reids.com/history

Edited May 17, 2022 by tarhoosier

[Desert Power]

13 hours ago, CLT Development said:

I think the former  Abari building gets salvaged and the rest is built around.

I do like the alley concept of an apartment building wrapped around retail. The space in the alley at Salud and at Free Range are some of my favorite places to hang out.

[Nathan2]

4 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

I think this day and age, trying to operate an independent small urban grocery store is really hard.... especially if you are the new kid on the block. You open... and everybody goes "$4.99 for a half gallon of milk!!! No way!" So I don't think developers are opposed... there just aren't a ton of entrepreneurs looking to start this low margin, fiercely competitive business where you need to be a master of supply chain, establishing relationship with hundreds or thousands of suppliers, et. have to throw out inventory constantly, need a decent amount of labor, and need a lot of customer volume to make up for low profit margin. The large grocery stores have so much pricing power and scale to offer prices that independent grocers really struggle against.

 

I'm just surprised the trader joes, Aldi's, and Lidl's of the world haven't moved into more urban neighborhoods. I feel like these stores would make a killing. An American version of Tesco would even be amazing to have. 

[kermit]

7 minutes ago, Nathan2 said:

I'm just surprised the trader joes, Aldi's, and Lidl's of the world haven't moved into more urban neighborhoods. I feel like these stores would make a killing. An American version of Tesco would even be amazing to have. 

Yea, large chains in the UK have figured out how to make a buck (pound) from small stores (even while facing competition from much larger stores down the road). Its certainly possible for the model to work here, but no US chain appears interested in attempting it. 

[videtur quam contuor]

Tesco was in the US from 2007 to 2012. I recall the opening in Arizona, but they chose a bad time (Great Recession) and converting shoppers from SUPERmarkets to their size shops, even with Tesco branded take-away products failed.

[kermit]

3 minutes ago, tarhoosier said:

Tesco was in the US from 2007 to 2012. I recall the opening in Arizona, but they chose a bad time (Great Recession) and converting shoppers from SUPERmarkets to their size shops, even with Tesco branded take-away products failed.

They also made some truly atrocious location choices.