Mississippi: Friend or Foe?

[Rardy]

Actually, an article in today's CA about this

Olive Branch has issued 547 permits for new house construction so far this year. It's down slightly from last year which was a record, but the average house size has grown from 3,100 to 3,450 square feet, with none below 2,500 sq. ft.

"DeSoto tends to see families move in, with an average of 2.75 people, and they get houses with three and four bedrooms. With two incomes, they're able to afford bigger homes."

It's true that a move to DeSoto may not benefit a middle-income family that much in terms of taxes, but if you compare land prices, and subsequent taxes on the value of that land, DeSoto is much, much cheaper than Shelby.

[tennreb]

Exactly! All the high-income people are smart enough to realize TN allows them to keep a larger portion of their income. I doubt the property tax difference would be enough to make someone choose one over the other if that person is making enough to worry about the income tax. Did that come out right? I'm trying to say that even if a rich person bringing home 6 figures is mad about higher TN prop. taxes, I doubt it will be enough to make them consider moving to MS and paying an income tax. Plus there is always Fayette County or Tipton County which are surely cheaper - and have no income tax. They are further out, - but hey - eventually Tipton will have I-69, right?

[tennreb]

Actually, an article in today's CA about this

Olive Branch has issued 547 permits for new house construction so far this year. It's down slightly from last year which was a record, but the average house size has grown from 3,100 to 3,450 square feet, with none below 2,500 sq. ft.

"DeSoto tends to see families move in, with an average of 2.75 people, and they get houses with three and four bedrooms. With two incomes, they're able to afford bigger homes."

It's true that a move to DeSoto may not benefit a middle-income family that much in terms of taxes, but if you compare land prices, and subsequent taxes on the value of that land, DeSoto is much, much cheaper than Shelby.

[Rardy]

Have you seen these larger homes in Olive Branch. They are complete crap. Just a cheap brick monstrosity with metal windows. Everyone one of them looks exactly alike.

[tombarnes]

So far, I have resisted the urge to jump into this thread. It goes without saying that the projects in Desoto will benefit the Memphis area as a whole. I'd like to see Memphians embrace the area instead of viewing it as a threat. Myriad, Riverbend and the other projects proposed for Mississippi will help the Memphis metro area rather than draining it of cash.

[tennreb]

So far, I have resisted the urge to jump into this thread. It goes without saying that the projects in Desoto will benefit the Memphis area as a whole. I'd like to see Memphians embrace the area instead of viewing it as a threat. Myriad, Riverbend and the other projects proposed for Mississippi will help the Memphis metro area rather than draining it of cash.

[Clobber]

So far, I have resisted the urge to jump into this thread. It goes without saying that the projects in Desoto will benefit the Memphis area as a whole. I'd like to see Memphians embrace the area instead of viewing it as a threat. Myriad, Riverbend and the other projects proposed for Mississippi will help the Memphis metro area rather than draining it of cash.

[Rardy]

I'm glad Desoto is growing, but I wish they'd pull their weight. The people of Shelby County have the burden of shouldering the poor. We even pay for Desoto's uninsured because Mississippi pays the Med pennies on the dollar for care given to uninsured Mississippians. Before long, there will be more vacant tracts in Memphis and all those cheap houses in Desoto will be crack houses. Southaven was South Memphis then Whitehaven before it was Southaven. The Med will probably still be footing the bill for Mississippi's uninsured, though.

[memphisvol]

Going back to the original post, to talk about Mississippi being a friend or foe, the topic should be edited to include Mississippi vs. Memphis. If you are comparing Tennessee vs. Mississippi, there is NO comparison between the two states and it is insulting to include the two states together. Tennessee has much larger metros, more entertainment/amenties (other than casinos), more natural beauty (MS has ugly beaches), higher incomes, and over double the population. Tennessee has three-four times more housing starts per year than that state as well. Furthermore, probably 40-50% of all growth in the state is due to the proximity and economic vitailty of our great state! About 75% of MS counties have negative or no growth, whereas in Tennessee probably only about 20 of 95 counties have negative or no growth.

To addresss the threat to Memphis, yes some people live and will continue to move to Miss., which is fine b/c that is what happens in all metros. THe people that have moved there overall, however, do not have college educations. They make good middle class incomes at factories, which means that DeSoto County will have a high median income, but the upper income brackets are still lacking. Almost all the professionals, high paying executives, etc. still live in downtown, midtown, East Memphis, Germantown, Collierville, and as stated earlier Fayette County is up and coming.

The other problem with DeSoto b/c it is so cheap to live there that the same thing that happened to Hickory Hill, Whiteaven, etc., and the type of poeple who moved there (reactionary rednecks) will panic and try to move again and there will be a real estate bust.

[Clobber]

Going back to the original post, to talk about Mississippi being a friend or foe, the topic should be edited to include Mississippi vs. Memphis. If you are comparing Tennessee vs. Mississippi, there is NO comparison between the two states and it is insulting to include the two states together. Tennessee has much larger metros, more entertainment/amenties (other than casinos), more natural beauty (MS has ugly beaches), higher incomes, and over double the population. Tennessee has three-four times more housing starts per year than that state as well. Furthermore, probably 40-50% of all growth in the state is due to the proximity and economic vitailty of our great state! About 75% of MS counties have negative or no growth, whereas in Tennessee probably only about 20 of 95 counties have negative or no growth.

[Memphis10]

Going back to the original post, to talk about Mississippi being a friend or foe, the topic should be edited to include Mississippi vs. Memphis. If you are comparing Tennessee vs. Mississippi, there is NO comparison between the two states and it is insulting to include the two states together. Tennessee has much larger metros, more entertainment/amenties (other than casinos), more natural beauty (MS has ugly beaches), higher incomes, and over double the population. Tennessee has three-four times more housing starts per year than that state as well. Furthermore, probably 40-50% of all growth in the state is due to the proximity and economic vitailty of our great state! About 75% of MS counties have negative or no growth, whereas in Tennessee probably only about 20 of 95 counties have negative or no growth.

To addresss the threat to Memphis, yes some people live and will continue to move to Miss., which is fine b/c that is what happens in all metros. THe people that have moved there overall, however, do not have college educations. They make good middle class incomes at factories, which means that DeSoto County will have a high median income, but the upper income brackets are still lacking. Almost all the professionals, high paying executives, etc. still live in downtown, midtown, East Memphis, Germantown, Collierville, and as stated earlier Fayette County is up and coming.

The other problem with DeSoto b/c it is so cheap to live there that the same thing that happened to Hickory Hill, Whiteaven, etc., and the type of poeple who moved there (reactionary rednecks) will panic and try to move again and there will be a real estate bust.

[Bears]

Like it or not, Memphis and Mississippi will have to work together in one way or another. I actually think its a great thing to be in a tri state region. If a business doesn't like the tax structure in one state, they have two other choices a few miles apart. Its all one market so competition and cooperation is unavoidable. I'd rather see a business move from Memphis to Senatobia or Hernando over a city in another region.

[BrandonTO416]

Quite frankly, Mississippi relies on Memphis for most of its non-gulf coastal growth.

Mississippi's fastest growing counties in sheer numbers and percent both in people and economically is due to metro Memphis. DeSoto County is the fastest growing county in Mississippi, and Tunica's gambling center is growing high in percent. Both are becoming huge tax revenues and centers of importance for Mississippi.

Mississippi is kind of like New Jersey, the cousin who relies on its neighbor for success. Memphis is the second largest economic engine in Tennessee behind Nashville, but its the number one economic growth center for the entire state of Mississippi, even though barely 10% of the Memphis metro resides in Mississippi. That just goes to show you how slow Mississippi is growing, unfortunately.

Given the fact that the Gulf Coast was destroyed - again with Katrina (was destroyed in 1969 with Camile) - I think Memphis will continue to be the economic engine of Mississippi.

Whether its a good thing or bad thing is to be determined, but considering the sales tax in DeSoto county is below 4% and when you step across the border in Tennessee it becomes a magical 9.75% I doubt retail will grow slowly in the MS side of the Memphis metro.

[tennreb]

Quite frankly, Mississippi relies on Memphis for most of its non-gulf coastal growth.

Mississippi's fastest growing counties in sheer numbers and percent both in people and economically is due to metro Memphis. DeSoto County is the fastest growing county in Mississippi, and Tunica's gambling center is growing high in percent. Both are becoming huge tax revenues and centers of importance for Mississippi.

Mississippi is kind of like New Jersey, the cousin who relies on its neighbor for success. Memphis is the second largest economic engine in Tennessee behind Nashville, but its the number one economic growth center for the entire state of Mississippi, even though barely 10% of the Memphis metro resides in Mississippi. That just goes to show you how slow Mississippi is growing, unfortunately.

Given the fact that the Gulf Coast was destroyed - again with Katrina (was destroyed in 1969 with Camile) - I think Memphis will continue to be the economic engine of Mississippi.

Whether its a good thing or bad thing is to be determined, but considering the sales tax in DeSoto county is below 4% and when you step across the border in Tennessee it becomes a magical 9.75% I doubt retail will grow slowly in the MS side of the Memphis metro.

[BrandonTO416]

i was thinking strictly retail taxes, and didn't realize it was 7%. i for some reason remember 4%, but maybe that was wrong. I lived in Memphis in 2001/2002. maybe i'm thinking of the arkansas sales tax??

Still, 7% is lower than 9.75% (or is Shelby still at 9.25?)

[tennreb]

i was thinking strictly retail taxes, and didn't realize it was 7%. i for some reason remember 4%, but maybe that was wrong. I lived in Memphis in 2001/2002. maybe i'm thinking of the arkansas sales tax??

Still, 7% is lower than 9.75% (or is Shelby still at 9.25?)

[Fear of Heights]

This same topic was recently brought up with regards to Mobile, AL and whether gaming in Biloxi hurts the Mobile area. Some Mobile leaders tried to get in the casino game in the early and mid 90s just as MS casino gambling was taking off but opposition by residents (fueled by anti-gambling campaigns) that many believed were financially supported by gambling interests in MS) killed efforts to have casinos in Mobile. An article this past weekend talked about this same topic. All I know is that there was one tangible example of MS screwing Alabama and that had to do with the Nissan Plant that ended up in Canton, MS instead of Opelika, AL, the other finalist for the plant. Mississippi, with the help of Senator Lott, helped give MS a major (and quite frankly unfair) advantage by having Madison County, MS (arguably MS's wealthiest county outside of Desoto) economic status as a disadvantaged area that entitled them to massive federal incentives to land the plant. As AL senator Jeff Sessions would later say, the law was the loophole was the equivalent of giving MS a bazooka compared to AL's bb gun in the fight. I think both Memphis and Mobile are hurt some by both Tunica and Biloxi respectively making millions off of residents from both areas.

[Memphis10]

So the state of Mississippi cant fight to better itself and bring more businesses to the state? You guys are a trip...

[tombarnes]

Frankly, I don't quite get the whole point of this thread. Mississippi isn't going to go away, and it's about time that the state got its share of economic development. Casinos may not have been the best route for the state to take, but they have proven to be of some economic benefit to the state. Instead of a negative thread, why not think of ways in which Mississippi's presence could benefit the region? The casinos in Tunica could be a great economic benefit to Memphis if the area were better served with transportation links. I realize that the thought of many Memphis residents moving into DeSoto County might not be appealing to many, but it is something which probably can't be halted. The most reasonable question is how can the entire area grow in such a way that the suburbs (MS, TN and AR alike) and the city can benefit one another?

[Clobber]

Frankly, I don't quite get the whole point of this thread. Mississippi isn't going to go away, and it's about time that the state got its share of economic development. Casinos may not have been the best route for the state to take, but they have proven to be of some economic benefit to the state. Instead of a negative thread, why not think of ways in which Mississippi's presence could benefit the region? The casinos in Tunica could be a great economic benefit to Memphis if the area were better served with transportation links. I realize that the thought of many Memphis residents moving into DeSoto County might not be appealing to many, but it is something which probably can't be halted. The most reasonable question is how can the entire area grow in such a way that the suburbs (MS, TN and AR alike) and the city can benefit one another?

[Clobber]

As an illustration of what the region needs (since Memphis can't always rely on support from the state legislature), is the following perspective in the Biz section of the CA (http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/business/article/0,1426,MCA_440_5664703,00.html): Cliff Chitwood, the head of econ dev in MS County in Arkansas (Blytheville) remarked that he was very happy that Nucor decided to redevelop a plant in Memphis, even though there are two existing Nucor plants in Blytheville. He evidently doesn't see Memphis as competition. In fact, "The more steel and automotive companies we can attract to the Mid-South gives us all a better chance to raise the standard of living in an area that quite frankly has lagged."

THAT'S the horse we need to hitch our cart behind, the issue of raising the tide for everyone in the metro Memphis area. Unite behind that. Develop a regional transit plan around that. Develop an economic development plan around that. When the next auto or aviation plant comes down the plant, and if there are locations in all three states, what they should do is pool resources, and market themselves together, to become the sole finalists, and then compete against each other (i.e. if Marion, Jackson, and Como were to be in the running, they should run together, get the company to conclude that one of those three should be the final decision, and then get into a scrum at that point, but use their pooled resources to eliminate the competition). I think that the Dallas metro area has used this strategy in the past to some success. Realize that, if I can't get it, I can still benefit some if my neighbor gets it, certainly benefit more than if Austin or New Orleans gets it...

I just don't know if the local municipalities will embrace that kind of vision; there is evidence that they can, but then they get the R'kings to do this. I know that the Regional Chamber has indicated an attitude along those lines so I'm not worried about them (they gave assistance to Marion and offered it to anyone else in the region interested in it).

It's certainly somewhat of a dysfunctional relationship among the parts of the region that must be healed with everyone coming to the table humble and determined to improve circumstances for each other as much as for themselves.

[tombarnes]

Whenever state lines are involved in a metro area, there will be at least some conflict. As a resident of Washington, D.C., I have often heard complaints from leaders here about the siphoning of business from the District into the suburbs of Virginia and Maryland. Fortunately, since Anthony WIlliams took office, we have been fortunate to have people in office who have been willing to actually do something about the situation. I'll be the first to agree with you that suburbs so often do drain the lifeblood out of a city, but your example is proof of how complicated things can become. Perhaps the new residents of DeSoto and Tunica Counties aren't interested in the imnprovement of the area as a whole. For these residents, and everyone in the area, general discussion about the region and how it is going to develop in the future is of vital importance.

[Rardy]

Whenever state lines are involved in a metro area, there will be at least some conflict. As a resident of Washington, D.C., I have often heard complaints from leaders here about the siphoning of business from the District into the suburbs of Virginia and Maryland. Fortunately, since Anthony WIlliams took office, we have been fortunate to have people in office who have been willing to actually do something about the situation. I'll be the first to agree with you that suburbs so often do drain the lifeblood out of a city, but your example is proof of how complicated things can become. Perhaps the new residents of DeSoto and Tunica Counties aren't interested in the imnprovement of the area as a whole. For these residents, and everyone in the area, general discussion about the region and how it is going to develop in the future is of vital importance.

[Clobber]

Agreed. I have some research which shows that MSAs which are divided by at least one state line grow slower on average than those MSAs entirely in one state. The real kicker, though, is that currently (for the latest data of May 2007), 75% of MSAs in multiple states have unemployment rates higher than 4.5%, compared to only 16% of MSAs in a single state.

Why? Interstate competition for identical projects which alienates border areas whose loyalties are divided, who thus have reduced capital with which to compete.

So IMO it's not Shelby vs. DeSoto -- it's Nashville vs. Little Rock vs. Jackson that really holds Memphis back.