Richmond's Suburban Developments

[My2cent]

Did you all see this ? Henrico is booming 

https://richmondbizsense.com/2020/12/01/breaking-news-arena-anchored-greencity-development-planned-for-henrico-owned-best-products-site/

 

[Icetera]

17 minutes ago, My2cent said:

Did you all see this ? Henrico is booming 

https://richmondbizsense.com/2020/12/01/breaking-news-arena-anchored-greencity-development-planned-for-henrico-owned-best-products-site/

 

Well, that will certainly make it easier to save on meals tax after a game...

[rjp212]

WOW!

[Wahoo 07]

City of Richmond -- take note.  Henrico has a vastly superior business climate and regulatory structure.  This is a development that should have been downtown.  Instead, it, and all the tax revenue it will bring, is in the burbs.

[marinog711]

How embarrassing for the city of Richmond! Hoping this doesn’t happen and causes city council to wake up.   Most arenas in the suburbs don’t work well.  Look at the palace at Auburn Hills, MI outside Detroit for example..  They all move back downtown eventually.  

[Brent114]

Of course nothing will come of this either. 
There’s zero demand for any of this. The Best products building is already vacant, 1/2 of Innsbrook is for lease. Working and shopping from home will continue to be the norm even after the pandemic is over.  Much of what is pictured here is exactly what is proposed less than 2 miles away at Virginia Center.  1/4 of the retail space along Broad is vacant.  The growth rate is unimpressive. 
 

Unless this is a 25 year plan, it will be DOA.  The same grifters are looking to con Henrico.   I doubt Henrico will be any more inclined to throw good money away than Richmond was. 

[Icetera]

25 minutes ago, Brent114 said:

Of course nothing will come of this either. 
There’s zero demand for any of this. The Best products building is already vacant, 1/2 of Innsbrook is for lease. Working and shopping from home will continue to be the norm even after the pandemic is over.  Much of what is pictured here is exactly what is proposed less than 2 miles away at Virginia Center.  1/4 of the retail space along Broad is vacant.  The growth rate is unimpressive. 
 

Unless this is a 25 year plan, it will be DOA.  The same grifters are looking to con Henrico.   I doubt Henrico will be any more inclined to throw good money away than Richmond was. 

While a lot of people are going stir crazy working from home I also doubt offices will ever return to their glory and brick and mortar was already dying so those elements seem odd.  Now, with less social interaction at work places, people are likely going to look for more opportunities to socialize so restaurants and event spaces may actually do better in the future.  Rather than having dedicated office space, companies may look more into rented venues or restaurants for meetings and idea sessions.

[I miss RVA]

I have to admit, this stings quite a bit. Feels like fumbling at the 1 yard line and watching the defensive back scoop up the ball and take it 99 yards to the house. And all you can do is watch him fly down the sidelines -- the other way -- with what would have been your touchdown.

[I miss RVA]

From Richmond.com - here's the Times-Dispatch's coverage:

https://richmond.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/17-000-seat-arena-in-henrico-part-of-planned-multi-use-project-off-parham-road/article_2df234e7-ff14-57c0-8f2f-73cb0f7fb0e5.html

https://richmond.com/business/photos-greencity-development/collection_ff5d422a-acb9-5c62-98c2-2739d4341d3b.html#1

 

[eandslee]

I have to say that the City of Richmond is STUPID!  This is what happens when you can't get your crap together.  It's going to be weird to have a suburban arena, but I predict that this WILL happen!  Henrico has a vision and this plays right into it.  They (Henrico) are known for getting things done and they won't let an opportunity like this to be passed up.  Too bad for the City, but City Council will have egg on their faces when this breaks ground.  Maybe next time they won't let a good deal pass them by when it is presented to them on a silver platter.  SMH!

Despite what I just wrote, there is a small part of me that thinks this might be a ploy to get the City back in the mix.  However, I don't think that the county manager would come out for this if the developers weren't serious.  Either way, I think that this would be better placed downtown...it's just a shame.

[Brent114]

The city is proving that it does just find with out an empty arena.  Are we really pretending that the city isn’t in the middle of the biggest development boom in many generations? 
 

Let Henrico  have it.  It will spur all of the development that the PNC arena  did in Raleigh (none).   Unless the developers have cash on hand and investors lined up, it won’t happen here either.  Henrico won’t put all of Short Pump in a TIF only to undermine the success of their project at Virginia Center Commons (which is more pressing, there’s no hurry to deforest the intersection of Parham and 95 but razing a bankrupt mall is a priority). 

[I miss RVA]

Brent - you bring a solid point - this current development boom - AND its corresponding population boom -- is unlike ANYTHING I have seen in better than 50 years of paying attention to stuff (yes - how many 8-year-old kids do you know are actually interested in this stuff. I was all-in at that age.) ... absolutely unprecedented in my lifetime. Yes - I personally would love an arena and "all the trimmings" downtown. But honestly? If that mega Hyatt Regency could still get built downtown without an arena .. and of the individual components of what was proposed in NH get built (ESPECIALLY a highrise, high-density project on the City Center footprint on Grace between 6th & 7th -- and a highrise residential tower at 4th & Broad and maybe something highrise along Broad Street where Thalhimers used to front) - I'd be a-okay with those developments coming in sans arena. 

If Henrico IS successful in getting this developed - and a new hockey team - and maybe a G-League basketball team come to town - we wouldn't be the first city with a beltway-located sports palace. Who knows - maybe there would even be a separate ZIP code for "Green City, Virginia" ... 

Make no mistake - my heart dropped when I saw the stories today - but it is what it is. Thankfully, what we currently have pouring into the city right now - particularly in Scott's Addition, Manchester, Rockett's, Fulton Yard ... is just extraordinary. 

Something interesting to consider - if ALL the highrise projects recently announced or hinted at for Manchester come to pass - adding them to what's already been built - would result in no fewer than NINE highrise residential buildings dotting a burgeoning Manchester skyline. I don't think there are that many right now clustered together anywhere in downtown, Monroe Ward, etc.

Of course - bigger picture - spectacular flops like NH - and now this eye-rollingly absurd cow-towing to the NIMBYs regarding upzoning Carver/Newtowne - just brings to the fore yet again how utterly inept City Council really is. We need someone to step up to the place in the city government to start pushing things forward.

 

[Urbs42]

5 hours ago, Brent114 said:

Of course nothing will come of this either. 
There’s zero demand for any of this. The Best products building is already vacant, 1/2 of Innsbrook is for lease. Working and shopping from home will continue to be the norm even after the pandemic is over.  Much of what is pictured here is exactly what is proposed less than 2 miles away at Virginia Center.  1/4 of the retail space along Broad is vacant.  The growth rate is unimpressive. 
 

Unless this is a 25 year plan, it will be DOA.  The same grifters are looking to con Henrico.   I doubt Henrico will be any more inclined to throw good money away than Richmond was. 

Agreed, what an obvious con.  

- No cost estimates or funding mechanisms mentioned 

- Suspect developers without a  project remotely close to this in their portfolios  

- No resident team using the arena or anchor tenants for the office space 

No shot this happens. 

 

[Brent114]

Let’s suspend our disbelief for a minute and assume that the arena will get built and will be successful.  

Richmond gets to benefit financially from it without assuming any of the risks. The reality is any fans traveling to Henrico to see the Henrico Middle Managers play hockey (ok, ok...they will be called the Richmond whatevers, not Henrico anything) are within an hour or two from home  (Charlottesville, Tidewater).  They will return home after the game.  In the event that they want to make a weekend of it, they’ll end up staying at the new Courtyard adjacent to Scott’s Addition, not out by to w interstate.   They will spend their money on Fan restaurants and at Carytown shops.  The VMFA and the James River Park system will receive the visitors because you cannot make a weekend of Henrico. 
 

An arena is an asset that could benefit the entire metro.  I really don’t care where it goes just as long as those profiting from it actually pay to build it. 
 

[eandslee]

Sorry, but you have to say these things because the City screwed the pooch.  It is a way to look at it on the bright side (and are valid points), but let’s be honest here,  the City would much rather have this development.

[vaceltic]

Win-win for me.

Richmond taxpayer who didn’t want to pay for the Navy Hill boondoggle. Now I’ll get to go to concerts in an Arena that Henrico can pay for. I guess they can afford the risk.
 

Richmond could not afford it nor the diversion of other downtown tax revenues over its life-cycle. 
 

We’ll see how this really plays out for Henrico.

The overlapping correlation of NH and this proposal is the land being designated an “Opportunity Zone”. This concept, while aspirational, is deeply flawed. Many OZ developments end up just being a tax-break haven land grab by developers that don’t produce their intended purpose.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jeffsteele/2019/08/30/opportunity-zones-separating-wisdom-from-folly/amp/

Edited December 1, 2020 by vaceltic

[blopp1234]

Henrico may be able to get the arena built but it will most likely turn into another bad suburban arena similar to the palace at auburn hills or pnc arena in Raleigh. No way are they gonna be able to find tenants for 2 million square feet of office space, especially now with the amount of office space being leased across the country expected to decline. While I wish that it was located along the pulse line in or directly adjacent to downtown, Brent brings up a very good point in that a lot of people who use the arena would probably eat at restaurants in the city, shop in Cary town and along broad, and visit the cities parks and museums. 
While I would love an arena in the city, the city will probably end up benefiting from this just as much as henrico, without any of the risk involved in financing the project, if this project even is built at all. 

[eandslee]

If built out, I see Green City becoming Richmond’s version of Tyson’s Corner. 
 

Nominal Timeline:

Planning through 2023

Arena is finished in 2025

Green City build out by 2033

Total time: ~12 years

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by eandslee

[whw53]

18 hours ago, vaceltic said:

Win-win for me.

Richmond taxpayer who didn’t want to pay for the Navy Hill boondoggle. Now I’ll get to go to concerts in an Arena that Henrico can pay for. I guess they can afford the risk.
 

Richmond could not afford it nor the diversion of other downtown tax revenues over its life-cycle. 
 

We’ll see how this really plays out for Henrico.

The overlapping correlation of NH and this proposal is the land being designated an “Opportunity Zone”. This concept, while aspirational, is deeply flawed. Many OZ developments end up just being a tax-break haven land grab by developers that don’t produce their intended purpose.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jeffsteele/2019/08/30/opportunity-zones-separating-wisdom-from-folly/amp/

@vacelticThe article is criticizing those states or regions which assigned OZ's to central business districts. I thought Virginia and Richmond  did a pretty good job of doing the opposite of this for the most part. Richmond's OZ zones aligned with transit oriented development goals like along Broad and in economically disadvantaged areas like along the Rt 1 corridor. 

Also, according to this web map the GreenCity project site is not in an opportunity zone.

http://vedp.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=bf7c530d8e0240c6a911a4b40fb0a357

Edited December 2, 2020 by whw53

[Icetera]

15 hours ago, blopp1234 said:

Henrico may be able to get the arena built but it will most likely turn into another bad suburban arena similar to the palace at auburn hills or pnc arena in Raleigh.

While I wish that it was located along the pulse line in or directly adjacent to downtown, Brent brings up a very good point in that a lot of people who use the arena would probably eat at restaurants in the city, shop in Cary town and along broad, and visit the cities parks and museums. 
While I would love an arena in the city, the city will probably end up benefiting from this just as much as henrico, without any of the risk involved in financing the project, if this project even is built at all. 

While I think PNC may be a viable example with comparable distance from the city center (7-8 miles), Auburn Hills is 30 miles away from downtown Detroit.  Both have rail access.  In comparison to Detroit, Green City would still be within the inner city and without our city growth limitations that location would be in the City of Richmond proper (but still likely suburban).

Regardless, that distance may still be enough to really prevent a lot of business from going into the city depending on the timing of games.  If the game fits into a schedule allowing for lunch or dinner prior, then that may take part in the city.  If not, then most people at sporting events tend to drink during the game.  When events were in the city, these attendees frequented the restaurants in the immediate area afterwards while sobering up.  Pulse opened up more access post game.  Unless they extend Pulse, or something hopefully quicker, the Henrico location lacks any direct access into the city for post game dinners so much will take place in the immediate area instead.

Also, I would not count on any hopes of another hotel in Navy Hill as the existing hotels have lost one of their major generators.  Rather than a synergy allowing a cluster of hotels (and parking facilities) to maintain a more regular capacity, additional hotels would locate to the new arena and new parking facilities will be built (kind of defeats the "green" promotion).

[eandslee]

I wonder if CoStar might consider abandoning their plans for a new building in Foundry Park downtown for new, shiner digs in Green City?   I know that most of us don't want to even think about something like that, but one would have to think it was a possibility, no?

[Icetera]

1 hour ago, eandslee said:

I wonder if CoStar might consider abandoning their plans for a new building in Foundry Park downtown for new, shiner digs in Green City?   I know that most of us don't want to even think about something like that, but one would have to think it was a possibility, no?

After buying up the property?  I highly doubt it, and the suburban location seems to go against their desires.

In fact, I am noting that CoStar does not own the property of their current building so wonder if they even intend to remain in it or if they are planning on moving everyone to a new, larger building.

[eandslee]

2 hours ago, Icetera said:

After buying up the property?  I highly doubt it, and the suburban location seems to go against their desires.

In fact, I am noting that CoStar does not own the property of their current building so wonder if they even intend to remain in it or if they are planning on moving everyone to a new, larger building.

I assumed that they were planning to move everyone to a new, larger building.  

Regarding the Foundry Park site - CoStar is a real estate company; they could hold on to the Foundry Park property as an investment and sell it off later on down the road...if they were to decide to move to Henrico.  I still think that may be a possibility.  We haven't see any renderings yet for any new building at Foundry Park yet and it's been about 6 months since they bought the property and reportedly hired an architect to design a new building.  All I'm saying is that it is possible...I don't want it to happen.  The only box my possibility does not check is the fact that they like urban environments, which to me is kind of a weak sole argument for keeping their new building downtown.

Edited December 3, 2020 by eandslee

[Icetera]

59 minutes ago, eandslee said:

I assumed that they were planning to move everyone to a new, larger building.  

Regarding the Foundry Park site - CoStar is a real estate company; they could hold on to the Foundry Park property as an investment and sell it off later on down the road...if they were to decide to move to Henrico.  I still think that may be a possibility.  We haven't see any renderings yet for any new building at Foundry Park yet and it's been about 6 months since they bought the property and reportedly hired an architect to design a new building.  All I'm saying is that it is possible...I don't want it to happen.  The only box my possibility does not check is the fact that they like urban environments, which to me is kind of a weak sole argument for keeping their new building downtown.

Given the location next door I had always assumed a likelihood of just expanding so if that is not the case I like the potential for a larger development.  Does CoStar actually deal with real estate directly beyond just supporting platforms/data?  Given the topography and prominence I would imagine the design process would take a while.  Since they do not require a SUP and are the developer and tenant would a rendering be expected this soon?  Dominion seemed to throw theirs out there but was in necessary to do so?

It looks like it has been 4 months, at most.  Damn 2020 drags...

[eandslee]

2 hours ago, Icetera said:

It looks like it has been 4 months, at most.  Damn 2020 drags...

It is dragging, but it looks like this article (see link below) published back in July says that CoStar had already put out an RFP for design by then (who knows how much earlier than July).   So, it is conceivable that they have had about 5-6 months to solidify a design.  Anyway, I just hope they aren’t reconsidering. I’m just playing devil’s advocate here to generate some conversation.  I’m hoping CoStar goes nowhere but right there at Foundry Park. 

https://richmondbizsense.com/2020/07/27/costar-eyes-new-riverfront-office-building/