Richmond's Suburban Developments

[wrldcoupe4]

Downtown is transforming Cam... you're just not patient enough.

And comparing Richmond to NYC is a little...unfair.

Bashing the retail and restaurants already there is unfair too. I'd take one of the independent restaurants downtown any day over most of the restaurants in the suburbs. The chains will come in time, but I hope we can still have the great restaurants already there. How often do you see the dining out thread discussing a new applebees or Friday's?

What happened in Richmond isn't unique to Richmond. It happened all over this country.

My glass is half full in regards to the entire region's future....I wish yours was.

[Cadeho]

I only mentioned New York because Burt's there. I had deleted a few sentences there. He's probably used to having department stores and other places there, which make up a real downtown. I am optimistic, for revitalization as far as living downtown goes. I am not optimistic for the shopping experience. Developer's idea of retail is a sandwich shop. That's a vending machine compared to what could be... but there is no space left with all the living quaters! Unless the big retail is shifted to Shockoe Bottom where there is lots of space available. They're only too afraid to bring anything else there. Again, people can just go to the suburbs for anything they need... but city residents, with the exception of West End and south-western (notice a pattern?) residents, have nothing. The time is now. No one has to wait in Short Pump.

Look at all the retail space we had on Broad Street downtown, nearly 95% is slated to become someone's home. The largest spaces were torn down or made into a hotel. Now I am not saying mom & pop stores are bad and I'm not bashing them, but I like big retailers where I know I can get what I want, just closer than leaving the city limits. I wish Circuit City would come home.

The entire region needs to get its act together to end all this competition, unfair practices, and broken promises. As long as the counties look out for themselves and not all of us, Richmond will always be the forgotten child. And I am not ignoring the comeback the city is experiences, but we've placed too much emphasis in one area... bringing all these people in with nothing to serve them.

And as far as suburban development goes, Henrico once again needs to remember it has another section to the county that needs revitalization... and storage bins and light industrial as planned is not going to cut it.

Edited March 13, 2006 by Cadeho

[wrldcoupe4]

I see lots of potential places for downtown retail and entertainment.... Almost all of the 1st floors of the Broad St buildings are going to remain commercial. Grace streets storefronts could easily accomodate a mix of stores including the Gap or something like that. 65,000 sf of retail are planned on the Ethyl Parking lot, and that number could change. Monroe Ward has blocks of nothing that could easily become retail as part of a mixed use... bow tie for example. Centennial Towers is negotiating with an anchor tenant and I guarantee it isn't a sandwich shop. The arcade in the CNB will have retail throughout, once work resumes. Likewise, the John Marshall will have retail, including a grocery market. Shockoe Bottom is definitely an option. On the city side of rockett's landing, 2 million sf of development are planned. While it will include 645 housing units, that still leaves significant room for retail/commercial space. In fact, when I went to the Preview Center a few weeks ago, I overheard that the emphasis on the western portion will be commercial, while the eastern portion (mostly in henrico) will be predominately residential. There are other surface lots and potential places throughout which could have retail included. It is coming.

Edited March 13, 2006 by wrldcoupe4

[mclawsdrive]

....He's probably used to having department stores and other places there, which make up a real downtown. I am optimistic, for revitalization as far as living downtown goes. I am not optimistic for the shopping experience. Developer's idea of retail is a sandwich shop. That's a vending machine compared to what could be... but there is no space left with all the living quaters! Unless the big retail is shifted to Shockoe Bottom where there is lots of space available. They're only too afraid to bring anything else there. Again, people can just go to the suburbs for anything they need... but city residents, with the exception of West End and south-western (notice a pattern?) residents, have nothing. ....

Look at all the retail space we had on Broad Street downtown, nearly 95% is slated to become someone's home. The largest spaces were torn down or made into a hotel. Now I am not saying mom & pop stores are bad and I'm not bashing them, but I like big retailers where I know I can get what I want, just closer than leaving the city limits. I wish Circuit City would come home.

The entire region needs to get its act together to end all this competition, unfair practices, and broken promises. As long as the counties look out for themselves and not all of us, Richmond will always be the forgotten child. And I am not ignoring the comeback the city is experiences, but we've placed too much emphasis in one area... bringing all these people in with nothing to serve them.

And as far as suburban development goes, Henrico once again needs to remember it has another section to the county that needs revitalization... and storage bins and light industrial as planned is not going to cut it.

I think there is a bigger problem here than big retailers being 'too afraid to bring anything else there'. Modern, large stores require lots of parking, urban areas aren't designed for parking lots of cars. As a ratio, residential space required far less parking than retail. One condo unit needs 1 or two spaces, an equivalant square footage of retail space needs 10 - 20 spaces. New York City is an exception because there are so many people living within short walking distance of these stores. Additionally, New York City has an extensive transit system that makes these stores more accessable. Obviously the more people that are willing to walk to a store, the less parking is needed. I think big retailers will move to any downtown once enough people are living there in high density, but parking will be the biggest obstacle.

Solutions would include better mass transit, parking garages, and more efficient, clustered mixed use development that makes more full time use out of needed space. .. (ie. parking spaces are available and convenient for using 24 hours a day instead of just at peak times). Designated, single use parking kills the efficiency of downtowns, which is why big box stores are in the suburbs. Just look at the Kroger and Lowes on Broad street at Lombardy. If all the retailers in the suburbs followed that formula in the city, Richmond would become Short Pump.

[ric75]

I think there is a bigger problem here than big retailers being 'too afraid to bring anything else there'. Modern, large stores require lots of parking, urban areas aren't designed for parking lots of cars. As a ratio, residential space required far less parking than retail. One condo unit needs 1 or two spaces, an equivalant square footage of retail space needs 10 - 20 spaces. New York City is an exception because there are so many people living within short walking distance of these stores. Additionally, New York City has an extensive transit system that makes these stores more accessable. Obviously the more people that are willing to walk to a store, the less parking is needed. I think big retailers will move to any downtown once enough people are living there in high density, but parking will be the biggest obstacle.

Solutions would include better mass transit, parking garages, and more efficient, clustered mixed use development that makes more full time use out of needed space. .. (ie. parking spaces are available and convenient for using 24 hours a day instead of just at peak times). Designated, single use parking kills the efficiency of downtowns, which is why big box stores are in the suburbs. Just look at the Kroger and Lowes on Broad street at Lombardy. If all the retailers in the suburbs followed that formula in the city, Richmond would become Short Pump.

Great post mclawsdrive. We can't compete with the suburbs as far as parking is concerned. They win that battle hands down. Downtown needs to become a destination where you park once in a central location and walk to the various districts. Some people already do this but not enough to support big retail yet. With all the new residential development going on though it's just a matter of time before downtown is truly a 24/7 community with heavy pedestrian traffic. In that battle, downtown will win every time.

[Cadeho]

When I think of a big box downtown I think of Thalhimers and Miller & Rhoads primarily. What did they do for parking? They had about 70 years to deal with that issue. So why can't a box build up with its own free deck? Nobody tell me that can't be done or its impossible, or I'll have to wait another 100 years. Look, I want to shop now, not when I'm 90. There will be no use! THE TIME IS NOW!

I know mass transit would be great for downtown and what is taking so long?! If we can just ween Richmond off of its cars we'd be a much healthier place (and I don't mean as in personal health only). Lots of people can walk near downtown too. People who live in Church Hill and Union Hill can walk. Definitely VCU, Oregon Hill, and the Fan. Jackson Ward, Shockoe Bottom, even Manchester. Don't tell me we don't have enough people. There is no exuse. And with all the transient car traffic, and the work crowd, there's MORE THAN ENOUGH people. No more excuses!

From how I see it, downtown is ripe and almost at the point of rot from the neglect. I wish someone would step up to the plate and just BRING IT! Maybe we're not seeing the same downtown. Those are nice potentials Coupe and some of those are on a fast track, but there's nothing here for my immediate needs.

Well time for me to exit the city limits in search of...

Then maybe we can have Manchester be the shopping district if the space isn't left downtown.

[wrldcoupe4]

It took decades for downtown retail to decline, and it's going to take time for it to rebound. It won't happen overnight and we shouldn't expect it to either. But it will happen and is happening and you won't have to be 90 to see it. Ask anyone in commercial real estate and they'll tell you that retail usually follows other types of development.

Edited March 13, 2006 by wrldcoupe4

[urbanvb]

Big name retailers will come if the density is there, as you said. Some examples are Georgetown or Old Town Alexandria. It will be exciting to see what retailers are announced for Richmond.

[Cadeho]

PLEASE help me understand this density and critical mass crap... because obviously downtown is basically right smack in the middle of the region with over a million people around it. The neighborhoods immediately around it boasts 1000s and the population inside downtown is growing too... then as I said, there is the work crowd. Didn't I read once downtown's weekday population is 200,000? So on their way to and from work, these people can't have convenient stores to pick stuff up on the way home? Something is not connecting here. That is why I think these are just excuses, full of crap.

[burt]

PLEASE help me understand this density and critical mass crap... because obviously downtown is basically right smack in the middle of the region with over a million people around it. The neighborhoods immediately around it boasts 1000s and the population inside downtown is growing too... then as I said, there is the work crowd. Didn't I read once downtown's weekday population is 200,000? So on their way to and from work, these people can't have convenient stores to pick stuff up on the way home? Something is not connecting here. That is why I think these are just excuses, full of crap.

Richmond's downtown work population is about 85,000 - not quite the "critical mass" you presume it to be.

Edited March 14, 2006 by burt

[Cadeho]

That wasn't a presumption, I read that and I can't remember where. It was a few months ago.

Plus, what does it take? A million people in a 16 block area? Well that is not going to happen nor will downtown ever reach this petty, idiotic benchmark that's so precious here. Creating a shopping destination downtown for those in the city can be done, naysayers, and the time is now! Is this the price for being a city resident, to be denied your very own?

Edited March 14, 2006 by Cadeho

[wrldcoupe4]

There are no naysayers Cam... we simply disagree with you on the timing. I'll say it again... it took decades for retail downtown to decline, and it will take time for it to rebound.

On the downtown worker population, the figure I most recently saw was around 85,000. I posted it somewhere in one of the threads in this forum. I think it was an article regarding the relocation of many of the state's IT employees to NorthropGrumman's new site at Meadowville in Chesterfield. I've never seen a number as high as 200,000 for downtown. If you can find where you read it though, post it.

[Cadeho]

My questions aren't ever rhetorical. No one's answered them.

[wrldcoupe4]

I don't really like the sound of this... we'll find out if it happens by Wednesday:

'Twin Towers' in Short Pump up for vote.

As a mixed-use development proposed for Short Pump heads to the Henrico County Board of Supervisors for approval, "twin towers" stand between developers and neighbors.

The company seeking to develop the grassy expanse at the juncture of West Broad Street and Interstate 64 wants to include two office buildings - one topping out at 20 stories and the other at 22. They would be the tallest office buildings in Henrico, and neighbors say they are incompatible with the surroundings.

"You can't bring downtown to Short Pump. You just can't do it," said Micky Ogburn, a resident of Windsor Place. "We think it's this monolithic thing that's going to stick out like a sore thumb."

The Board of Supervisors is scheduled to vote on the project tonight. The meeting will start at 7 p.m......

It's part of the West Broad Village development....

[eandslee]

I don't really like the sound of this... we'll find out if it happens by Wednesday:

'Twin Towers' in Short Pump up for vote.

It's part of the West Broad Village development....

Wow! I'd like to see a rendering! Honestly though, these need to be built downtown. However, the tall buildings could give the Richmond Metro area the feel of a major metropolis like say, Atlanta, which has tall buildings many miles from the downtown area...not that this is a good thing, but it would give it that "feel". Know what I mean?

[TBurban]

Wow. Im not sure what to say. It's going to be interesting to see what the outcome is. Im not sure what to think about this. I mean, sure it's exciting, but I think 20 and 22 stories Thats pretty tall for Short Pump. They make the development sound like Rocketts Landing. Thats way too much to comprehend for Short Pump.

Edited March 14, 2006 by RVA_tommy

[burt]

That wasn't a presumption, I read that and I can't remember where. It was a few months ago.

Plus, what does it take? A million people in a 16 block area? Well that is not going to happen nor will downtown ever reach this petty, idiotic benchmark that's so precious here. Creating a shopping destination downtown for those in the city can be done, naysayers, and the time is now! Is this the price for being a city resident, to be denied your very own?

We're not the ones you need to convince, Cam. Go out and shake cash from potential developers.

"...so take my luck, you'll need it, and you'll need asperin, too..." to quote lyricist Hart of "Pal Joey" and numerous other Broadway shows penned by him and Richard Rogers.

Edited March 14, 2006 by burt

[wrldcoupe4]

Wow. Im not sure what to say. It's going to be interesting to see what the outcome is. Im not sure what to think about this. I mean, sure it's exciting, but I think 20 and 22 stories Thats pretty tall for Short Pump. They make the development sound like Rocketts Landing. Thats way too much to comprehend for Short Pump.

I think the biggest question is what does Henrico and its citizens want Short Pump to become? IMO, 20/22 story towers will be pretty out of context compared to the suburban neighborhoods nearby. Does Short Pump want to become a Tyson's Corner of sorts? a supersuburb that has tall buildings like a city but lacks overall walkability and the adequate infrastructure? I'm sure these won't be accompanied by any nearby future highrises, so they will really look out of context. 30 years from now, what will we think of them?

[ric75]

I think the biggest question is what does Henrico and its citizens want Short Pump to become? IMO, 20/22 story towers will be pretty out of context compared to the suburban neighborhoods nearby. Does Short Pump want to become a Tyson's Corner of sorts? a supersuburb that has tall buildings like a city but lacks overall walkability and the adequate infrastructure? I'm sure these won't be accompanied by any nearby future highrises, so they will really look out of context. 30 years from now, what will we think of them?

Personally I'd like to see more development like this. Instead of building out we need to build up! The reaction the citizens quoted in this article give aren't surprising though. Suburbanites are passionate about their parking lots, sprawl development, and well-landscaped grassy areas that no one ever walks on. As far as being out of context is concerned, they have to start somewhere. I'm sure once these are built other towers will follow.

[wrldcoupe4]

Redevelopment of the older and aging suburbs might be a better avenue for this kind of growth. If we don't, Richmond will start looking like a bullseye with a thriving downtown, horrible inner suburbs, and thriving exurbs and outer suburbs

Edited March 14, 2006 by wrldcoupe4

[burt]

If you stop and consider the situation elsewhere in plus one million metros, Richmond is one of the very few that has no high-rise ring cities. Watkins Centre and Short Pump are about to change that.

I personally would much prefer to see all of those empty blocks in Monroe and downtown south of Main develop with high rise mixed use.

Edited March 15, 2006 by burt

[wrldcoupe4]

They showed renderings of the highrises on NBC12 today... they looked pretty good. I wish they were going downtown

[eandslee]

They showed renderings of the highrises on NBC12 today... they looked pretty good. I wish they were going downtown

Dang it! I want to see what they look like! Hopefully, they'll publish them somewhere on the internet!

[TBurban]

They showed renderings of the highrises on NBC12 today... they looked pretty good. I wish they were going downtown

Any chance you could get a copy of those

Edited March 14, 2006 by RVA_tommy

[TBurban]

More details on West Broad Village. It sounds big

West Broad Village would include Henrico's tallest building

Edited March 14, 2006 by RVA_tommy