New courthouse plans run higher

[bobliocatt]

By MARY KELLI PALKA, The Times-Union

Remember that $300 million price tag on a new Duval County courthouse that led Mayor John Peyton to scrap the plans and fire nearly everyone involved?

City records now show that may not have been such a bad a deal.

On the low side, it could cost Jacksonville taxpayers $320 million to build a large judicial complex based on new designs on land near the old federal courthouse downtown.

On the high side, constructing two buildings at different times could cost as much as $356 million.

Those numbers, which city officials stress are drafts, include the $58 million the city has already spent on architectural plans, fees for designers and construction managers and land. Peyton pulled the plug on the old plans from Cannon Design last year after cost estimates reached about $300 million.

"In hindsight, the Cannon plan isn't that bad," Chief Judge Donald Moran said after he was given updated cost estimates. If the city had continued with the Cannon design, "It certainly would have been cheaper than anything we're going to do."

Peyton couldn't be reached for comment.

For full article, click here:

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stor..._18587348.shtml

[jjoshjl]

Geee... What a shock.... you sit on your hands long enough and the price tag goes up...

[Urban_Legend]

Aaarrrrgh!!!!!!!!! Just when I was thinking that we were perhaps making some sort of progress........

[bobliocatt]

Well, its now in everyone's best interest to pick up the pace and get the ball moving, because the prices won't be getting any cheaper.

I also wonder, what's the problem with considering the KBJ proposal again. Even the bloated cost estimate the city did, came in millions of dollars less than this.

[merlin]

I also wonder, what's the problem with considering the KBJ proposal again.  Even the bloated cost estimate the city did, came in millions of dollars less than this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do we really need to open up that can of worms again? Besides I think the city would have to send out another RFP/RFQ if they were going to do something like that. I don;t think the competition guidelines stipulated that if the first place finishes failed to perform the second place would get a shot. ...

[bobliocatt]

At this point, I don't care one way or another. I'd just like them to pick up the pace, because at the rate we're moving, the thing will cost $500 million before construction starts.

[merlin]

I second that. Well the city needs to do something soon or it could face a lawsuit. I think federal law mandates construction/expansion of courts every so many years.

[vicupstate]

It sounds like all they did was re-price everything as originally spec'd. I thought the idea was to assume a redesign based on a smaller footprint with more stories, or putting some of the space in a satelite facility.

[RiversideGator]

Were this situation not so sad, it would be laughable. This highlights Peyton's incompetence. Had he had some balls and pushed through the original Cannon design two years ago, it would be half built by now at probably $250 million. Instead, he hesitated (b/c is seeking higher office and doesnt want to offend anyone) and the prices of course went up. The problem with Peyton is that everyone thought that b/c his daddy had made a lot of money the son must be some kind of shrewd, smart businessman, when in fact he is nothing more than a useless lightweight.

We need to go back to the original Cannon design, bring back in Cannon (and have Peyton apologize to them) and get this thing done now.

[Dale]

Or just temper the champagne taste and scale the project down.

[RiversideGator]

By the way, on March 14, 2005, Cannon CEO Gary Miller stated that he could still build the Cannon design for $268 million. The problem originally was twofold: Cannon was not given cost management responsibilities for the courthouse (how stupid was that) and the cost of materials in the US went up 20% because of surging demand. Cannon can still deliver. We need to go with them. See the article here: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=41998

[RiversideGator]

Or just temper the champagne taste and scale the project down.

I think that Jacksonville is too great a city to be satisfied with mediocrity. A civic building like the courthouse should be designed to instill respect for the law in all who enter and should be a great civic icon for the city (as was the Cannon design)

Satellite facilities are a bad idea too b/c they dont work logistically and they dont help support downtown. Imagine lawyers having to go to a divorce hearing at 9 a.m. in the Mandarin courthouse followed by a hearing at 11:00 a.m. in the northside courthouse. This is the worst idea yet.

[La Florida]

I really hope that what ever they do, they dont plan on using the current courthouse beyond the completion of the new one. Selling this prime riverfront property will definately help ease the cost of the new courthouse. And the value of that land will be through the roof. And why do we have to have this same ol' period architecture for the courthouse. Sure its nice but i think its time we start thinking beyond mimicking the past and start creating something new. Thats what I love about the Federal Courthouse downtown..its modern. It would certainly be a hell of alot cheaper to build a steel/glass highrise!! Not only would it add to the skyline and compliment the JEA proposal, but it would also save valuable land for future expansion. I really hate the fact that our city continues to be so damn old fashion!!

[RiversideGator]

And, we should build a building now with enough capacity so it doesnt become undersized and outdated in 10 years. Think about the future.

[RiversideGator]

La Florida: courthouses should be traditional in design because they are designed to inspire people, not architects. Also, most people in Jacksonville support the Cannon design, I would wager. Finally, this design harkens back to the Greeks and Romans, who are the inspiration for our democratic civilization. This is why neoclassical design has been so popular in America over the years. In my opinion, this architecture is some of the best ever conceived and there is no need to throw it away for plastic and glass because it isnt trendy among celebrity architects.

[FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER]

La Florida:  courthouses should be traditional in design because they are designed to inspire people, not architects.  Also, most people in Jacksonville support the Cannon design, I would wager.  Finally, this design harkens back to the Greeks and Romans, who are the inspiration for our democratic civilization.  This is why neoclassical design has been so popular in America over the years.  In my opinion, this architecture is some of the best ever conceived and there is no need to throw it away for plastic and glass because it isnt trendy among celebrity architects.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh yes they piddle, twiddle, and resolve, not one damn thing do they solve, piddle, twiddle, and resolve, nothing's ever solved in foul, fetid, fumid, smoggy, filthy, Jacksonville!

I agree with all that's been said; I believe one of the reasons why Peyton reneged on the original idea was because of cost; but by him hesitating and not being aggressive this bit him in the ***. I think they need to proceed forward with a new, cost efficient but attractive design; even go further as to assess what type of new design can shave off some dollars but ensure it is not cheaply built, and will last a long time (this will be hard to do).

It appears that Peyton is now hiding under the covers trying to decide what to do. He'll peek from under them soon and I am sure he will expose some balls and move forward.

FLORIDAY SKYRISE ORDER

[crazy cuban]

come on folks, didn't we see this coming??? why are we all surprised now?? truth, we won't get a new courthouse till at least 2010... it will be design for the population and caseload now, making it obsolete in 2010... more than likely it will look like something out of Gladiator (that way we can have the city council dress up in fine cloth and eating well!) while citizens, excuse me>>> taxpayers... battle it out in the ring... and no>>> let's not hand this off to KBJ or any other designer without having a new competition, it's only fair! as for mayor peyton>> does anyone thnk that Nat would have done any better??? Please>>> Jax city government is the most uncompitent group i have ever seen... anyways, what should be done with the courthouse>> hoenstly, who knows... but i am not holding my breath! all i know is this, the grass on the site is getting pretty high, can we get that cut???

maybe we can turn the site into a temporary park while the courthouse takes 4 yrs. to work out???

[jjoshjl]

I agree with la Florida for no other reason than Cost at this point. Sure, the general populas likes the idea of a grand structure the embodies those that inspired democracy, but I think that option is no longer availible at this point. Atleast not for the cost they want to pay. If you want to build something like that, you have to assume you are looking at astronomical prices, simply because of the building materials. Further more, if you are going to build something like that for JAX, then make it realy something. Not just a carbon copy design of another neoclassical building. Spend $500M if you have to, but understand, that this is designed as a grand structure, and thereofre you are going to have a grand price.

However, though I would love to see such a project go up, I do not think it is viable any longer under current circumstances. At this point, we should look at building a 30 story (or higher) highrise that is classicly inspired. This is the best bang for our buck at this point. think about it, how tall a building do you think you could build for $250M. I'm sure that would be suitible for our future needs, and that is what they need to be arguing now, not how Roman it is. City concil wont pay the price needed for such a structure, therefore, it should no longer be considered an affordable option.

[Dale]

I'd personally like to see Jax break out of the historicist mode.

[La Florida]

Riverside Gator, I agree that the whole Neoclassical design maybe somewhat "inspiring" but what is it that we are trying to inspire. Why do all courthouses have to be the same? Why cant jax stand out and be different. And sure the architecture is one of the best conceived...if julius ceasar was mayor im sure he'd be very pleased. In my opinion, Jacksonville doesnt need another copycat, another whitehouse, another bland, boring, all white massive unoriginal structure. Lets push the envelope guys. I know its JUST a courthouse, but thats exactly what it shouldnt be..JUST a courthouse. It should define the city, state, and the people here, it should truly be a staple in our city. But hey, lets continue to repeat ourselves, after all everyone else is doing it!

[RiversideGator]

According to Cannon last month, they can still deliver for $268 million. Of course, Peyton would never swallow his pride and give them another try.

[merlin]

Riverside Gator, I agree that the whole Neoclassical design maybe somewhat "inspiring" but what is it that we are trying to inspire. Why do all courthouses have to be the same? Why cant jax stand out and be different. And sure the architecture is one of the best conceived...if julius ceasar was mayor im sure he'd be very pleased. In my opinion, Jacksonville doesnt need another copycat, another whitehouse, another bland, boring, all white massive unoriginal structure. Lets push the envelope guys. I know its JUST a courthouse, but thats exactly what it shouldnt be..JUST a courthouse. It should define the city, state, and the people here, it should truly be a staple in our city. But hey, lets continue to repeat ourselves, after all everyone else is doing it!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The courthouse will be ultra neoclassical because of two things... the judges and the good ole boy network that is, like it or not, our city government.

[Urban_Legend]

La Florida:  courthouses should be traditional in design because they are designed to inspire people, not architects.  Also, most people in Jacksonville support the Cannon design, I would wager.  Finally, this design harkens back to the Greeks and Romans, who are the inspiration for our democratic civilization.  This is why neoclassical design has been so popular in America over the years.  In my opinion, this architecture is some of the best ever conceived and there is no need to throw it away for plastic and glass because it isnt trendy among celebrity architects.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Couldn't have said it better myself!

[vicupstate]

According to Cannon last month, they can still deliver for $268 million.  Of course, Peyton would never swallow his pride and give them another try.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How can Cannon say that they can build now for 268, when they were saying 300mm and counting when the project was put on hold. Did the price of concrete or steel go down?

[merlin]

How can Cannon say that they can build now for 268, when they were saying 300mm and counting when the project was put on hold.  Did the price of concrete or steel go down?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cannon said that back in the beginning of March. Keep in mind that the costs the city is reporting includes the fees already paid to consultants and architects.