A VISION FOR PROVIDENCE

[Citydweller]

I was being generous when I said that Sasaki's plan was 'merely ok'. I went last night to the presentation as was disappointed in the real lack of revision and further development (I didn't see any street level views - tho I came late). If this is a 'vision' plan it is seriously lacking. It seems that they have mostly produced a zoning diagram. I'm assuming that the layout of the streets is not the real layout and that this can still be changed to something of a better quality.

They claimed that someone asked for a smaller park... I noted that the shape of the park was almost accidental...I wonder if they interpreted that to mean it should be smaller?

Mashpee is still the only New Urbanist development (semi-greenfield type) in New England. It has been both a remarkable success and a testament to the difficulty of beaurocracy. For almost 20 years they have been trying to build the mixed-income, mixed-ype, walkable residential neighborhoods surrounding the retail center to make the whole place work as a complete town, but have been stymied by the Town of Mashpee. Finally, it is beginning to happen. I've done 2 buildings there and could talk all day about the things that don't work (as could the developers), but it a lot closer to a real town now that a typical shopping center (the element of time applies to New Urbanist developments too) In fact, its overwhelming success is becomming part of the problem - as Yogi Berra says - 'it's so crowded that nobody goes there anymore.'

Welcome Bill. I'm looking forward to hearing more of your views on this and other matters. I grew up on the Cape (Cotuit, right down the road from Mashpee Commons) and watched Mashpee Commons transform. I know it's half done, there's a lot of good things to say about it, but a good deal of things that aren't working, yet (I hope, they'll work someday...).

On the Sasaki plan, 'merely OK,' seems to be the best review it's gotten here yet, (I'm still waiting for the city's promised website on it all). I've been meaning to bring this thread back to life and try to get the conversation going in a positive direction, so what do you think is OK about it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Cotuit]

Thank you for explaining the Ship Street park discussion much better than I did!  And yeah, those Fox Point people need to keep quiet for a change.  I was thinking I would just write to Sasaki and let them know that they don't speak for all of us ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would like Sasaki to just take Fox's Point out of their planning so all those people can stay home and we can discuss the rest of the city. Happily there were less of them this time around, and there was a chance to foucus more on the rest of the city.

[Citydweller]

Garris-

Form-based zoning codes are a hopeful new development that attempts to replace the sprawl-generating, city-destroying use-based codes that we have had in this country for the past 60 years. The use-based codes developed out of the industrial revolution, when it was bad to live next to workplaces, but was carried to absurd lengths after WWII to separate all uses - retail from housing from office from school and even different types of housing from each other. This makes it impossible to create (or renew) a city or town or neighborhood or even a hamlet.

Form-based codes put the form of the city and the buildings within it (not the use of each building) at the forefront of the approvals process. As long as a building is in the right place in relation to the street, with the right height to street width ratio, woith the parking in the appropriate place, then the use is secondary. The building can be housing, office, retail or whatever. This is the traditional city for 5000 years.

New Urbanists have been working on this, because we realized that with the present codes it was illegal to create traditional cities, towns and neighborhoods. There are a number of form-based codes that have been adopted but the best place to start if you are interested is the Smart Code (download from www.tndtownpaper.com). This is another initiative from Andres Duany (but worked on by many) who say that it was impossible to change the 37,000 municipalities zoning codes one at a time. As a Cuban, he realized that you had to seize the transmitter, which is the basic code. The original use-based codes that we have were largely spread through the use of the xerox machine - most towns couldn't afford their own code to be developed, so the used one from Philadelphia or Seattle - so you have one-size fits all codes. The Smart Code is free (so it will be copied) and is meant to be locally calibrated.

Anyhow, this is the direction Providence should be moving - a code that embodies what people want instead of the typical code that tells you what you aren't allowed to do.

Bill

Also, for us enthusiasts, could you describe what a form-based code is?

- Garris

[Cotuit]

Janet Keller, who lives on Willow Street in the West End, said the highway already cuts off the western neighborhoods, and tall buildings would make it worse.

"We are very afraid that those heights that you propose there are going to isolate us even more," said Keller. "First you have to cross a moat, and then you'll have to scale a wall."

This is a bit melodramatic, obviously one will not be forced to scale a wall to get Downcity. One thing that struck me is that this woman said she "lived in the neighbourhood." No one lives in the block wide stretch along the highway where these heights are proposed (Ok, there are a couple homes scattered throughout it, but it is not a neighbourhood). And the reason no one lives there is exactly the reason Sasaki gave for needing more height, no one wants to live along a highway. In the discussion the Sasaki people said that it would perhaps be better to zone it for 100feet then allow for taller structures through the Density Bonuses (providing stepbacks, art uses, maintaining area parks, creating affordable spaces, green designs, public parking...).

People cannot get it through their heads that just because something is zoned at 100 or 150, that doesn't mean every square foot of each parcel will be built to that height. Providence has a buzz, but it is far from hot, we're not Phoenix or Las Vegas. People are not rushing in here to build to the absolute envelope of the zoning laws.

I don't understand this 'wall' mentality. What exactly do people think they are being walled from, or into? From a man on the street perspective, as long as there is interest at the ground level, in the form of good streetscaping, and ground floor uses, the height doesn't really matter. The West Side is "walled" from Downcity now, by underutilized parcels. A 150foot building is no more or less of a wall than an empty parking lot ringed with chain link fencing.

[eltron]

This is a bit melodramatic, obviously one will not be forced to scale a wall to get Downcity. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree, tall buildings will not necessarily be bad. BUT, I think this woman is merely ill at ease with an idea that COULD continue to contribute to the very substantial disconnect from the West/Southsides to downtown and the eastside, and general crappy planning over the last 60 years that remains very damaging to this part of the city.

I see no problem airing caution during this planning hearings. That is, afterall, what they are for, especially when the neighborhoods in question have been crapped on for so long.

[scdavies1]

I agree, tall buildings will not necessarily be bad. BUT, I think this woman is merely ill at ease with an idea that COULD continue to contribute to the very substantial disconnect from the West/Southsides to downtown and the eastside, and general crappy planning over the last 60 years that remains very damaging to this part of the city.

I see no problem airing caution during this planning hearings. That is, afterall, what they are for, especially when the neighborhoods in question have been crapped on for so long.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I think this was what Janet Keller was expressing. The "wall" mentality stems from the damage that 95 did to the city, splitting it along racial, economic, and social lines. I think the key, as with everything I suppose, is the quality of what gets built along the service road. Height doesn't necessarily breed good planning. That area is seen as a gateway to the west side, and residents are determined to protect the unique structures and shops that have cropped up and define the area.

[Cotuit]

Yes, I think this was what Janet Keller was expressing.  The "wall" mentality stems from the damage that 95 did to the city, splitting it along racial, economic, and social lines.  I think the key, as with everything I suppose, is the quality of what gets built along the service road.  Height doesn't necessarily breed good planning.  That area is seen as a gateway to the west side, and residents are determined to protect the unique structures and shops that have cropped up and define the area.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm a West Sider (though Federal Hill, not Armory/Elmwood) and I hear where these people are coming from. We need to give developers the economic ability to make money off these parcels along the highway, that's where the height comes in. The status quo is not working. We can look into the area and micromanage the zoning some. At some places I think tall buildings right up to the East-West streets will create a dramatic gateway, I think Broadway is one of these areas, maybe Broad Street as well, seeing as we already have the Crossroads building on one corner. Other areas, such as Westminster, maybe we want to zone lower. And the Sasaki people already said they want Dean to be in the 4 story range, maybe there is a way we can zone for that. I think zoning a bit lower than 150, and allowing more height when projects meet the Density Bonuses is probably the way to go.

These taller buildings will bring a more dense population to the West Side, and the future residents will be just as loathe to cross the highway as people are now. This will prompt more neighbourhood services to spring up on the West Side, strengthening the retail districts that are there now.

[TheAnk]

I just don't feel the whole East Side West Side thing... It was like that a few years ago, but lets be honest.. All the development in the city is ON the West Side.. There is nothing going on the East Side.. Plus, it is horribly over priced, and there isn't much of a difference, if any.. Granted Blackstone is incredible, but thats not where renters and normal people live.. Its Fox Point/College Hill/ Wickenden/Thayer.. And that area, is no better than Federal Hill now.. But people pay about a 40% premium in rent to live there..

So all this talk about West Siders feeling isolated is mularkey.. Hog wash.. I've lived there for 5 years and its great.. Was New England's best kept secret until recently..

[Frankie811]

I just don't feel the whole East Side West Side thing... It was like that a few years ago, but lets be honest.. All the development in the city is ON the West Side.. There is nothing going on the East Side.. Plus, it is horribly over priced, and there isn't much of a difference, if any.. Granted Blackstone is incredible, but thats not where renters and normal people live.. Its Fox Point/College Hill/ Wickenden/Thayer.. And that area, is no better than Federal Hill now.. But people pay about a 40% premium in rent to live there..

So all this talk about West Siders feeling isolated is mularkey.. Hog wash.. I've lived there for 5 years and its great.. Was New England's best kept secret until recently..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WOW!!!!!!! What are you on, my friend!!!!

[TheAnk]

WOW!!!!!!!  What are you on, my friend!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm serious.. and I won't even edit my post...

You have to live it every day to know what I'm talking about.. The area is changing so rapidly, its amazing.. The East Side isn't this exclusive place it used to be.. People are living on the West Side now that wouldn't even venture over here 5-10 years ago.. You know I'm right, you are just mad about paying $300 too much in rent, or 100k too much on a house/condo over there..

[Cotuit]

I'm serious.. and I won't even edit my post... 

You have to live it every day to know what I'm talking about.. The area is changing so rapidly, its amazing.. The East Side isn't this exclusive place it used to be.. People are living on the West Side now that wouldn't even venture over here 5-10 years ago.. You know I'm right, you are just mad about paying $300 too much in rent, or 100k too much on a house/condo over there.. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stop telling everyone how great the West Side is, people will start wanting to live here with us.

Pay no attention to him folks, he's off his meds.

[kinematix]

"People are living on the West Side now that wouldn't even venture over here 5-10 years ago"

This is very true. Having lived on the East Side for over 20 years I know lots of people who are not only buying on the West side now but are living there too. As for the quality of life, the services can't be much different. Police, fire, and ambulances are still gonna show up in both places. Pot holes are everywhere and even my own college hill street on has been without a street sign for the two years I've lived on it.

The attitude and feel of the neighborhoods, however, is very different. Generally, people who spend more to live on the East side want to see new shiney import cars in their neighbors driveway- not just in their own. They want to live on a manacured (sp?) street with conservative landscaping and historical details. They also want to live in places where other families live that also send their kids to private schools. It's all about what makes them comfortable and they can afford to get what they want so that they do feel comfortable.

Can the same sort of stuff be found on the west side? sure. But are the attitude and feel the same? In my opinion - no way. This doesn't make one better than the other, of course, it's just the difference of what people are willing to pay to get what they want.

So Yes, much of the East side is over-valued (in some cases excessively) but the same can be said for places on the West Side. The prices may seem more reasonable on the west side when you campare the two but remember its not the product that drives the price up, its the location. The more people want it, the higher the price goes.

[TheAnk]

I've got to disagree.. And, completely.. The East Side you are talking about is not the East side I'm talking about.. You are talking about the richest 1% of Rhode Island, Blackstone hood.. And if you are renting an apartment, you aren't living there... People who live there don't care about paying a premium to live there.. Money is no object..

The other East Side hoods, Mt Hope, Hope, Wayland, and Foxpoint and some College Hill aren't any different.. They are about the same as Mt Pleasant, Elmhurst, Manton, Fed Hill...

If you disagree, then maybe you should take a drive through those hoods nowadays.. If by attitude and feel you mean diversity, then you are probably correct.. It seems to me that people think diversity is a good idea, as long as it is not around them.. Is diversity a NIMBY?

Now, the South Side; West End, South Prov, Elmwood, lower Fed Hill.. Is like the old Combat Zone in Boston.. Horrific.. I drive around there every 6 months or so to see if there is improvement.. there is none..

The East Side hasn't change in 5 years.. The "West Side" is booming, and the South Side hasn't changed either.. Horrible there..

As far as price, The East Side from 2002 has appreciated only 31%, whereas the West Side has appreciated 105%.. These are the stats for multifamilies..

The mean was 129k in 2002 for Prov and 286k for East Side.. Now the means are 265k and 374k, respectively...

Move back to 2000, and the change is 231% for West Side, and only 84% for the East Side..

Like I said, the two are evening out.. Only people who live on the East Side still try to keep the stigma alive..

So the West Side has the South Side to bring its mean down, and the East Side has blackstone to bring its mean upward..

So, they are about the same..

[kinematix]

The percent change of property values do speak to the trend which you correctly point out is significant to the evening out of the East and West sides but what you are speaking of is not just stigma and you're ignoring the prices of single family homes which largely make up the east side anyway. The vast majority of students who attend private schools like Moses Brown, Wheeler, and Lincoln live on the East side. I know this beacuse I have worked for one of them as recently as last year. I am not making a blanket statement that the entire east side is that top 1% and I do know what you mean with respect to the many of the neighborhoods which don't meet this high-end market description but are still east side. I've had the opportunity to live in places like camp street and hear gun shots from my bedroom so I know its not all champagne and caviar, but my point is that I don't see kids flocking from the west side to attend MB, wheeler, and so on.

[TheAnk]

Check out the land use for the East Side:

College Hill:

http://204.17.79.244/profiles/maprnks/coh_plu.gif

Fox Point:

http://204.17.79.244/profiles/maprnks/fxp_plu.gif

Wayland:

http://204.17.79.244/profiles/maprnks/way_plu.gif

Mt. Hope:

http://204.17.79.244/profiles/maprnks/mth_plu.gif

Hope:

http://204.17.79.244/profiles/maprnks/hop_plu.gif

Mostly 2-5 family houses..

Now check out Blackstone:

http://204.17.79.244/profiles/maprnks/bla_plu.gif

Blackstone is incredibly nice, and the rest of East Side is just nice (College Hill is very nice as well)..

Even people who are on welfare and Section 8 sent their kids to private schools. Prov schools are that bad.. I'm only 29 with no kids, so I don't know a thing about which schools are good, or the the ones you mention..

So withholding Blackstone and its predominantly single family residences, the rest of the East Side is no different that Elmhurst, Mt Pleasant and Manton..

Its all defunct perception..

Elmhurst:

http://204.17.79.244/profiles/maprnks/eht_plu.gif

Mt Pleasant:

http://204.17.79.244/profiles/maprnks/mtp_plu.gif

Manton:

http://204.17.79.244/profiles/maprnks/man_plu.gif

[TheAnk]

Not to hammer away on the topic, but..

From the 2000 census, which is a long time away.. Here are the Median Household Incomes for the hoods:

Wayland: 45.9k

College Hill: 36.5k

Fox Point: 28.8k

Mt Hope: 28.4k

Elmhurst: 38.2k

Mt Pleasant: 35.2k

Manton: 24.3k

And this was 5 years ago in the census, which is compiled over a 10 year span.. So many changes since then, all positive for the West...

I do think it is better on the East Side, but not like it used to be.. When I moved here, it was East Side or nothing.. Its not like that anymore..

[kinematix]

Points well made. I didn't realize the land use was so mixed.

Anyway the schools I refer to cost about 20 thousand a year (middle and high school) and are populated mostly by kids from the East side (as long as they are from anywhere in Providence area) but not limited to Blackstone or College hill.

[eltron]

Now, the South Side; West End, South Prov, Elmwood, lower Fed Hill.. Is like the old Combat Zone in Boston.. Horrific.. I drive around there every 6 months or so to see if there is improvement.. there is none..

The East Side hasn't change in 5 years.. The "West Side" is booming, and the South Side hasn't changed either.. Horrible there..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are completely wrong here. There have been huge improvements in Elmwood and South Providence, as well as the "West End." Actually, there is no "Armory" neighborhood - it's the West End, so if you haven't seen improvement there, you are completely blind. I mean Adelaide Avenue off of Elmwood Ave probably rivals some of the better streets on the East Side for sheer aesthetics.

Really, sections of the "Westside" and "Southside" are fantastic places to live. That wasn't what I was talking about in my original post referring to this topic. It was in purely planning terms - there is no dispute these neighborhoods were greatly effected by highway construction and overall stupid planning for decades and those barriers remain.

[TheAnk]

You are completely wrong here. There have been huge improvements in Elmwood and South Providence, as well as the "West End." Actually, there is no "Armory" neighborhood - it's the West End, so if you haven't seen improvement there, you are completely blind. I mean Adelaide Avenue off of Elmwood Ave probably rivals some of the better streets on the East Side for sheer aesthetics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not a fan of the Armory.. There are about 3 good streets from the park to Messer, and thats it.. And it is surrounded by crime.. Nice victorians, beautiful.. But I think there is too much bad surrounding it.. If they built a mote around those three streets, the park, and the Cranston St aromry it would be ideal!!!

[Cotuit]

The Planning Department has the 2020 stuff up on it's website.

[TheAnk]

I've got to disagree.. And, completely..  The East Side you are talking about is not the East side I'm talking about.. You are talking about the richest 1% of Rhode Island, Blackstone hood.. And if you are renting an apartment, you aren't living there... People who live there don't care about paying a premium to live there.. Money is no object..

The other East Side hoods, Mt Hope, Hope, Wayland, and Foxpoint and some College Hill aren't any different.. They are about the same as Mt Pleasant, Elmhurst, Manton, Fed Hill...

If you disagree, then maybe you should take a drive through those hoods nowadays.. If by attitude and feel you mean diversity, then you are probably correct.. It seems to me that people think diversity is a good idea, as long as it is not around them.. Is diversity a NIMBY?

Now, the South Side; West End, South Prov, Elmwood, lower Fed Hill.. Is like the old Combat Zone in Boston.. Horrific.. I drive around there every 6 months or so to see if there is improvement.. there is none..

The East Side hasn't change in 5 years.. The "West Side" is booming, and the South Side hasn't changed either.. Horrible there..

As far as price, The East Side from 2002 has appreciated only 31%, whereas the West Side has appreciated 105%.. These are the stats for multifamilies..

The mean was 129k in 2002 for Prov and 286k for East Side.. Now the means are 265k and 374k, respectively...

Move back to 2000, and the change is 231% for West Side, and only 84% for the East Side..

Like I said, the two are evening out.. Only people who live on the East Side still try to keep the stigma alive..

So the West Side has the South Side to bring its mean down, and the East Side has blackstone to bring its mean upward..

So, they are about the same..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That article in the ProJo.. Did that alert people to the fact that the East Side isn't all its cracked up to be?

Is there anyway some one could post the article here?

[Cotuit]

Journal perpetuates the myth that developement vs. open space at Fox's Point is an either/or proposition.

They do however re-endorse the idea of the Ship Street Canal.

[Garris]

Journal perpetuates the myth that developement vs. open space at Fox's Point is an either/or proposition.

They do however re-endorse the idea of the Ship Street Canal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, that was an interesting op-ed... I like the Ship Street Canal idea, but I think Sasaki has thrown that one out 100% (it won't jive with their Ship St park being the center of 195 idea...). Where they perpetuating an either/or, or were they pushing for a reasoned compromise?

- Garris

[Cotuit]

Where they perpetuating an either/or, or were they pushing for a reasoned compromise?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, this made me think they were looking at it as an either/or issue:

Will the Cicilline adminstration build upon this progress by ensuring adequate public access and green space at the grand confluence of the Providence and the Seekonk rivers? Or will this prime land be made available only to high-rise developers?

[citygirl]

Despite what appears to be a deep summer lull, the city planning department will soon re-engage with the proposed changes in the city's zoning ordinances, one of the most heinous elements of which is to remove special protection for waterfront uses and access. There will also be an attempt to dump the woefully deficient Sasaki plan into the city's existing comprehensive plan. Next Monday, September 26, the City Council will hold hearings on the city's proposed stormwater ordinances, whose requirements are being left to the tender mercies of the DPW. And finally, the City Council earlier this summer voted to spend as much as $75K each for their urban design and land-use consultants to "review" the city's proposed zoning changes and explain the implications to them. I attended that particular council meeting, and the comments from the Council members ranged from puzzled to downright hostility to any idea of urban density. One of the members, for example, complained that there were already too many people in Providence, and that 4-story buildings were too crowded!

Wheter one agrees with the proposed re-zoning or not, there has been an absolute failure to involve the public and to help people get a good idea of what good urban design looks and feels like. The canned presentations at the poorly advertized neighborhood meetings are no substitute for engaged public discussion about what we want the city to become. And the Sasaki plan, which calls itself Providence 2020, but which only concerns itself with downtown and a sliver of the waterfront, is not the platform to launch a real vision for the city and the region.

The participants in this forum are all highly knowledgeable, articulate, passionate defenders of real urban life. We should make it a point to turn up at every public forum with the goal of providing thoughtful informed insight and of pressing the city to open up the planning process to the residents, not just the developers and usual suspects.