VCU Developments

[D_C]

but VCU must realize that its local reputation will take a hit if it does not explain why the only feasible location for the new facility is on the site of West, and why West could not be adapted to other uses that would be useful to VCU - particularly housing.

....and the spin doctors are already brainstorming.

Those photos of the West Hospital from just about every angle of the city skyline are AMAZING!! Good freakin' work!! That is a lot of driving around and the viewpoint from some of those shots I recognize. That is a very good series on the impact on the city skyline.

Destruction of this building would be like tearing down old city hall.

[NYCJSW]

I did not think I was doing line by line quotes. I was using quotes to keep my post organized and to help the reader. If that gets me banned it is rather petty. Plus, I see a lot of people using quote boxes. I just don't know how to do it on this message board.

I'll answer the posts in order starting with Wrldcoupe.

You broke down what each side wants in this debate and you describe the preservationists cause as "a worthy cause given the role the building played in the local community". I think that is a rather biased view. I understand that is how your side may feel but I don't think most members of the Richmond area would see it that way. I think most would feel that the preservationists think West Hospital is a really unique building and just want to save it. I don't feel that many would think your cause is worthy.

As far as the pictures go. I think they do little to help your cause. Besides the roof, the building does not look very good. I think a great compromise is tearing the building down but somehow incorporating the original roof design of West Hospital. Regardless nice pictures.

Cadeho brought up the question: "How would they after a tour come to a negative conclsuion that the building is useless without that thought implanted from their tourguide."

Well, I thought I said my tour would include a few hours on the MCV campus. If you took people inside West Hospital you would quickly see that it is not very useful. The building is not set up for modern use and the elevator system is a big problem. Basically it is a giant storage closet.

Well, it seems there is agreement that VCU can do whatever it wants. But perhaps the preservations will get a compromise (no this is not a joke) and VCU will incorporate the original roof design of West Hospital in the new building. This to me seems like a very reasonable goal to shoot for and one the public would get behind. Saving the entire building is not going to happen. 2 cents

[creativeclass]

This is a compromise? The smell of arrogance is thick in the air. And no one is disputing that West Hospital, in its current neglected state, is obsolete for its original purpose. That's why there is something called "historic rehabilitation" which could transform West for another 70 years of useful service to VCU.

By the way, you never addressed my two questions from this morning - why is the site of West Hospital the only possible one for VCU's expansion? And has any effort been made to explore if West could be adapted to other uses, particularly for housing, after appropriate restoration?

[wrldcoupe4]

I did not think I was doing line by line quotes. I was using quotes to keep my post organized and to help the reader. If that gets me banned it is rather petty. Plus, I see a lot of people using quote boxes. I just don't know how to do it on this message board.

I'll answer the posts in order starting with Wrldcoupe.

You broke down what each side wants in this debate and you describe the preservationists cause as "a worthy cause given the role the building played in the local community". I think that is a rather biased view. I understand that is how your side may feel but I don't think most members of the Richmond area would see it that way. I think most would feel that the preservationists think West Hospital is a really unique building and just want to save it. I don't feel that many would think your cause is worthy.

I like a healthy debate, and just didn't want to see anyone unable to do it because of something like that.

Still, with regards to breaking down what each side wants, I complimented BOTH sides. Instead of writing off my suggestion as bias because I tried to introduce each side in a positive way, let's talk to the actual suggestion:

"So, why can't we please both competing interests? What is wrong with saving West Hospital, the city giving land to VCU, and building this new Medical Sciences program at a different location nearby such as a surface lot? Why is it absolutely necessary for West Hospital to fall for VCU to realize this great vision? Why won't VCU even consider building a beautiful western gateway to their medical campus along Broad between 10th and 11th streets?"

[NYCJSW]

When I wrote about bias I was pointing out that your position is a bit more extreme then you might think. Your worthy cause is probably not supported by much of the community. I guess you could respond and state "that's because most people don't understand how unique West Hospital really is and how this gem needs to be preserved"?

Now to the questions that worldcoup and creative brought up. They are pretty similar in nature. Clearly there are other options where VCU/MCV can expand. They could build in Henrico or Chesterfield and they could probably find a space closer to their medical campus than the counties. They can't find a space as good as where West Hospital sits. I think it is pretty obvious that the West Hospital spot is by far the best spot. So other spots are available (that is obvious) but they are not nearly as good as the West Hospital spot. Converting West Hospital to a useful medical facility would be very difficult and converting it to a state of the art facility would be impossible. Turning it into a residential facility also seems implausible. I residential facility of this size right in the center of the MCV campus does not sound that appealing or needed. If you did that and tore down the old dorms you would free up some land but that land would be very far away from the main MCV campus.

I pointed out why your compromises in my opinion won't work. Why don't you explain why a new building with roof top features similar to West Hospital won't work? Keep in mind that West Hospital is far from being a national treasure. We are not talking about the Chrysler building. We are talking about a building that most residents of the city don't really care about.

[wrldcoupe4]

Creative has already elaborated on why West isn't registered as historical and thus not protected from demolition like so many other buildings around town... national treasures and highrises in NYC are irrelevant to this. Most people in Richmond probably hardly care about any buildings in the city save a few. That doesn't mean that everything else is eligible for the wrecking ball. Tyranny of the majority is no way to make a decision in this case.

No one has ever suggested that VCU build in the counties. There are several empty parcels in and adjacent to the medical campus which could be utilized by VCU for a new structure. I fail to see what is obvious about the West Hospital's ground that makes it the "best spot" for a Medical Sciences building? How is it any better than an empty parcel, requiring no demolition, 1 block away? No one here has suggested West need to be a medical facility (tobacco warehouses on E. Cary in Shockoe Bottom apparently don't need to be tobacco warehouses). While I appreciate your opinion, I'd really love to hear the opinion of VCU officials on why it is such an impossible idea? At the Downtown Masterplan meeting, I appreciated the pat on the back speech, the needs of the university expressed which everyone supports, and subtle threats of leaving downtown if they don't get what they want by bringing up the Denver experience... but why was there no responses other than chuckles and headshaking when the idea of using nearby surface lots was brought forth by David Herring of A.C.O.R.N. and others?

No offense to Tommy at all, but a new building with some disneyfied rooftop lacking the fantastic work done by art deco artisans is not a compromise (what is being preserved at all?) If West Hospital is torn down, then VCU needs to build something equally as stunning to our era as West was to its era. VCU should build a structure that 70 years from now people will fight to have preserved. I'm so sick of VCU's unimaginatively bland architectural designs (the BrandCenter exluded... it rocks!). How would the disney approach even work... a square box with a cross on top? IMO, it would be impractical for any new medical sciences building to be shaped as a cross because it would be inefficient for the purpose of the building. Preservation should be proactive... fight the good fights, but if demolition is inevitable in the end, work with those in charge to ensure that any replacement will be worthy of praise for decades to come (as Historic Richmond Foundation did with the state's 8th Street Office Bldg/Murphy Hotel and its proposed replacement).

Edited February 23, 2008 by wrldcoupe4

[NYCJSW]

Well, your first paragraph points out what I thought. What the masses/community thinks does not really matter, it is only what preservationists feel that is important. I would not call it tyranny of the majority. I think we are going a bit far with how important it is to save West Hospital. But by making some noise perhaps preservationists will win points for the next battle or get a good compromise on this issue?

Now your last paragraph makes a lot of sense in my opinion and would be a very valid "line in the sand" issue to battle on. VCU has already stated how important this building is to their future so perhaps the door is already opened for making this building one to remember. I don't think the roof design has to be a "disneyfied" rooftop and I think with input from preservationists the design could be grand. I think this is a very workable compromise and should be pushed to the front of the debate.

[D_C]

I pointed out why your compromises in my opinion won't work. Why don't you explain why a new building with roof top features similar to West Hospital won't work? Keep in mind that West Hospital is far from being a national treasure. We are not talking about the Chrysler building. We are talking about a building that most residents of the city don't really care about.

If/when it is torn down, and a new building put up, I would like to see it closely resemble the old West Hospital (balconies way up high, dark brick, non-boxy) and to use the exact same roof. Not just one similar, but the exact roof. That would impress me. I believe a compromise that incorporated the salvation of the very unique roof, complete with old rotating light, would be a fair compromise.

I am just not that impressed with the new bed tower and would hate to see another cookie-cutter splotch on our skyline.

[creativeclass]

Turning it into a residential facility also seems implausible. I residential facility of this size right in the center of the MCV campus does not sound that appealing or needed. If you did that and tore down the old dorms you would free up some land but that land would be very far away from the main MCV campus.

A recent Times-Dispatch article suggests a pent-up demand for housing on both VCU campuses, as only about one-third of students live either on campus or in private housing in the neighborhoods immedately surrounding VCU, according to a VCU spokesman. Owning off-campus

Buying may beat renting if your kids are in school

This is not to suggest that the new medical facility should be built on the edge of campus in place of the old dorms.

Edited February 24, 2008 by creativeclass

[NYCJSW]

I just thought up a brilliant idea. Since the undergrad campus can use a lot more housing on their campus, perhaps VCU can find a way to move West Hospital to the Monroe Park campus. I mean, they moved Cape Hatteras Light House so how much harder could it be to move West Hospital? It only needs to go up Broad Steet about a mile. Think big! (tongue in cheek)

[jbjust]

I just thought up a brilliant idea. Since the undergrad campus can use a lot more housing on their campus, perhaps VCU can find a way to move West Hospital to the Monroe Park campus. I mean, they moved Cape Hatteras Light House so how much harder could it be to move West Hospital? It only needs to go up Broad Steet about a mile. Think big! (tongue in cheek)

No need to move the building -- how about a mile-long zipline between the roof of West Hospital and Monroe Park. Would certainly get you up and alert for those 8 o'clock classes.

[creativeclass]

I just thought up a brilliant idea. Since the undergrad campus can use a lot more housing on their campus, perhaps VCU can find a way to move West Hospital to the Monroe Park campus. I mean, they moved Cape Hatteras Light House so how much harder could it be to move West Hospital? It only needs to go up Broad Steet about a mile. Think big! (tongue in cheek)

Hey Spin Doctor, you should have read the article first, before dropping your inane comments into a 'serious' forum. By the way, are they paying you by the response or by the word to post here?

[Cadeho]

NYCJSW, I don't understand your hatred for this building. Your personal hatred has made your argument biased. Then you dismiss any other opinion. It is as if you have no appreciation for architecture and don't care if Richmond is stuck with Sanger Hall II. The West Hospital does not need to function as it originally had but it could be converted into student housing. They may whine about the cost, but I don't mind my taxes going toward fixing this building. It is VCU's fault it has allowed the building to get to its current state. It has rehabbed many buildings on its campuses and just left this one as it was. They have the money.

There are other places in VCU's Medical Campus where new buildings can be built. There are several places screaming for a shiney new builing along 11th and 12th. How about the site of the cancelled Children's Hospital? I guess that surface lot is the best use for that land they own. VCU has also had interest in expanding into Shockoe Valley where it has a couple buildings already. I guess they can't build anywhere else except on this site.

I agree that if we should lose this building, VCU owes Richmond another landmark at its eastern gateway on Broad. It also has to have the exact same top to hold the former building's mark on the skyline and vistas. It doesn't have to be useful, it can be monumental at the top. Please understand, it's not just because it's old that people want to save this building. We don't build buildings like we did with detail and designs and since we don't build them as we used to, we should at least preserve examples for future generations. We should not only honor the building for its role in the city's history, but also for its contribution to Richmond's wonderful mix of architecture styles. It should be a tangible example for those studying architure. No, it can't be hospital, but that does not mean it has to be demolished. Personal hatred for the building does not make an argument against the building.

[NYCJSW]

Hey Spin Doctor, you should have read the article first, before dropping your inane comments into a 'serious' forum. By the way, are they paying you by the response or by the word to post here?

edit - per was going to respond to personal attack

My joke had NOTHING to do with your post.

I read the article you linked (before you linked it). It states there is a growing trend for students to buy instead of rent. It in no way suggests a need for a housing facility the size of West Hospital. I don't think anyone besides ACORN is suggesting a market for such a thing.

Edited February 25, 2008 by NYCJSW

[NYCJSW]

"Personal hatred for the building does not make an argument against the building."

Cadeho,

I don't hate the building. I just don't think it is worth saving. It could be said that some people on here "love" the building. It seems like the common compromise that keeps getting brought up is building a new building with similar rooftop features as West Hospital. To me this is a good idea and would be a nice tribute to West Hospital. I think it would also serve as a tribute to those who fought to have West Hospital saved.

The other compromise is building a new hospital in another location and converting West Hospital to another use. This compromise requires more logical leaps then the first. Those wanting this compromise fail to mention how much it would cost to convert West Hospital to another use and does a market for this even exist. There is also the issue of finding another alternative spot that is just as good as the one West Hospital is on.

Edited February 25, 2008 by NYCJSW

[wrldcoupe4]

It's entirely possible that through a joint venture or other arrangement, VCU could incur minimal to no costs associated with an adaptive reuse of the building. There are several locations in the immediate area, already suggested, that are no worse than the parcel this building sits on.

Downtown apartment vacancy is low; the market could absorb something coming on line the size of West Hospital.

[journiyin]

It's entirely possible that through a joint venture or other arrangement, VCU could incur minimal to no costs associated with an adaptive reuse of the building. There are several locations in the immediate area, already suggested, that are no worse than the parcel this building sits on.

Downtown apartment vacancy is low; the market could absorb something coming on line the size of West Hospital.

I have avoided chiming in on this issue for a while...

I guess I am done avoiding it.

I can see both sides of this argument, and more often than not both sides are right. The building is old. It is expensive to re-use. It is in the way of the hospitals need for more space. The main issue driving the need at that location is the direct access to the BULK of the hospital. For every 100 feet of walking you put between the emergency and main entrance of a hospital to its 'overnight' bed spaces you accrue a HIGH dollar amount of fees. Which, most often get passed along to the consumer. VCU in this case is wieghing the costs of converting West Hospital to a new, modern facility, versus just tearing down and building a new one. If you toss in the idea of using one of the available parcels nearby you exponentially increase the hospitals operating costs... you have to look at length of walk, were the boilers, generators, etc. are located presently.

Now all that being said, the building is gorgeous, and in the present skyline, the roof stands out. So, clearly there is a need to preserve or emulate this touch.

As far as converting the building to apt's or condos, they would have to be for med students, because not many other people (IMO) would buy or rent there... even VDOT or state employees... personally, I wouldnt want to look down at the place I work every day, it would just be depressing.

Being a voter in the city I guess I have more of an impact on the council here than some, but my opinion is undecided... I think the discussion should continue...

[wrldcoupe4]

The replacement building wouldn't have beds... it would be a teaching facility for Medical Students so the walking distances aspect should be minimal.

[creativeclass]

The replacement building wouldn't have beds... it would be a teaching facility for Medical Students so the walking distances aspect should be minimal.

Unless VCU is somehow swayed by local opposition to their own Master Plan (doubtful), it will demolish West Hospital. They have the ability to do that tomorrow if they choose.

What's interesting is that they don't want to seem like bad guys while they're executing their long-term plans. They'll promise Richmond anything short of preserving the building, while in the end they will do as they please. That's how things happen in this city, and NYC JSW knows it. His arrogance proves it.

I'm not impressed by hints that VCU will, or should, replace West with an equally-monumental structure, or roofline, or whatever. Plans can and do change, and the more likely replacement by VCU will be "more of the same". At least the charette / Master Plan process gives residents a chance to be heard on important issues such as this.

Edited February 27, 2008 by creativeclass

[NYCJSW]

"What's interesting is that they don't want to seem like bad guys while they're executing their long-term plans. They'll promise Richmond anything short of preserving the building, while in the end they will do as they please. That's how things happen in this city, and NYC JSW knows it. His arrogance proves it."

Yes, this is such a unique situation. Its "how things happen in this city" and no where else. Give me a break! I keep reading this same type of rant (on these boards, styleweekly etc) and it is such a boring point. Most of these people making this point have never really lived anywhere else or are comparing apples to oranges. Do you really think other cities that have such an important player like VCU, who has done so much for the city, would stop them from knocking down a buidling they own? Before you answer remember apples to apples - West Hospital is no Empire State Building by any stretch. Sure it has an Art Deco design and a neat roof but it is not seen as a city treasure (only a small group of preservationist). The Master Plan discussions and all the promises that go along with it occurs all across this country in hundreds of cities. That's how things happen! Not just in mean old Richmond with big bad VCU.

Edited February 27, 2008 by NYCJSW

[Shakman]

Just want to get off topic for one post. I need to make a correction from a previous post. Prior, I had stated that the crane for Medical Science II was removed from site. Supposidly it has been replaced by another one of equal size. Maybe the other one broke down? Who knows.

Back to the current topic...

[wrldcoupe4]

Do you really think other cities that have such an important player like VCU, who has done so much for the city, would stop them from knocking down a buidling they own? Before you answer remember apples to apples - West Hospital is no Empire State Building by any stretch. Sure it has an Art Deco design and a neat roof but it is not seen as a city treasure (only a small group of preservationist). The Master Plan discussions and all the promises that go along with it occurs all across this country in hundreds of cities. That's how things happen! Not just in mean old Richmond with big bad VCU.

Everyone is already well aware that the city can't stop VCU from tearing down the West Hospital. I think what people want is some sort of public discussion of it and a reasonable explanation as to why other options won't/can't be acted upon. VCU's land use decisions affect all of us, for better and worse.

[NYCJSW]

I understand that everyone now is in agreement that VCU can do what it wants to do. The previous poster claimed that the VCU/Richmond relationship is a unique one and implied that this type of thing would only occur in Richmond. Just as the right for VCU to tear down West Hospital has been established, I feel the reasoning for VCU to want to tear down West Hospital has also been established. We have already explained why alternatives are not as useful or practical. Some may not buy into this reasoning but it has been given over and over.

Here is a good article in Style Weekly about the recent VCU expansion to the east.

http://styleweekly.com/article.asp?idarticle=16434

Edited February 27, 2008 by NYCJSW

[Cadeho]

And I enjoyed that article and pictures. We do cheer VCU's jumping Belvidere. However with the West Hospital situation, do you think everyone cared when Old City Hall was threatened with demolition? There were people who didn't care for it and there were people who wanted a new builing, and there were some who would have been happy for another parking lot. That building wasn't saved by a million people, nor did they need a large number to help them. The number of people needed to save a building does not matter. So while the preservationists may seem like a small crowd, if it is, it is satisfactory. It literally can take one person to save a building.

[wrldcoupe4]

Just as the right for VCU to tear down West Hospital has been established, I feel the reasoning for VCU to want to tear down West Hospital has also been established. We have already explained why alternatives are not as useful or practical. Some may not buy into this reasoning but it has been given over and over.

Here is a good article in Style Weekly about the recent VCU expansion to the east.

http://styleweekly.com/article.asp?idarticle=16434

VCU has clearly explained why the alternatives are not useful/practical? This is news to me. Could you link to the article or VCU press release or where ever else VCU has elaborated on this?

And that was a great, very thorough article (as usual) from Ed Slipek.