Malls

[south park county]

I'm with Fl on this one. Highway 90 between CC and I-10 isn't actually that sparsely populated, they just do a great job of hiding it with all the trees. This definitely wouldn't qualify as sprawl for me, although I do wish I-10 was more centrally routed way back when. Thats ancient history though. I do lament how little development Tallahassee has along I-10 and this will certainly be a catalyst for development regardless of its arrangement even if it isnt a regional attraction.

[Florida]

Uh, I don't think it's that amazing since it's how I use to earn my living for over ten years doing this very exact thing.

My harsh critique comes from the fact that we were told this would be a lifestyle center development. Plain and simple is not going to be that. It will be a very fine looking regional power shopping center. It will look very much like Colonials centers in Alabaster and the one going up in Fultondale. Both of which are in B'ham suburbs and I've seen both. I think Colonial is actually submitting a better plan for the Pinnacle at Gulf Shores than what they are proposing here.

Many of their centers have a JcPenny in them. I wonder if they will try to lure them from the disco mall if Dillard's chooses Fallschase over Pinnacle. If you want a feel for what tenants they will have here, look at the stores that are at their existing properties in Alabama and that should give us some idea. If this development can't lure a big name anchor from the get-go, what B'boom has been saying all along may ring true.

Poonther, how do you define lifestyle center?

This is how WiKi defines it:

A lifestyle center is a shopping center or mixed-used commercial development that combines the traditional retail functions of a shopping mall but with leisure amenities oriented towards upscale consumers. Lifestyle centers, which were first labelled as such by Memphis developers Poag and McEwen in the late 1980s [1] and emerged as a retailing trend in the late 1990s, are sometimes labeled "boutique malls". They are often located in affluent suburban areas.

A strip mall (also called a plaza or mini-mall) is an open area shopping center where the stores are arranged in a row, with a sidewalk in front. Strip malls are typically developed as a unit and have large parking lots in front. They face major traffic arterials and tend to be self-contained with few pedestrian connections to surrounding neighborhoods. In the U.S. and Canada, strip malls usually range in size from 5,000 square feet to over 100,000 square feet.

If you look at what's being proposed, these stores aren't arranged in a perfect row, the Plaza is oriented like an Outlined "L"

with the Hotel, restaurant pads, and office space, movie theatre, looking toward the main shopping areas of the mall.

I'm with Fl on this one. Highway 90 between CC and I-10 isn't actually that sparsely populated, they just do a great job of hiding it with all the trees. This definitely wouldn't qualify as sprawl for me, although I do wish I-10 was more centrally routed way back when. Thats ancient history though. I do lament how little development Tallahassee has along I-10 and this will certainly be a catalyst for development regardless of its arrangement even if it isnt a regional attraction.

Finally, I won a supporter!! And someone who seemingly understand this area of town. I'm sure murphy can attest to the strong concentration of Tallahasseans in this area as well. The development is contiguous to other developments, and the plan is compatible with the zoning of the site.

[TD]

This isnt the problem, The project atleast pitched to me I believed it was going to be an upscale place like the St johns town center in Jax but on a smaller scale, with less high end clients.

But, apparently it will look like Governors Marketplace near the Disco mall, with its long strip center and restaurant lay out.

[poonther]

Poonther, how do you define lifestyle center?

I'd define it much like what GG stated above about Winter Garden Village. You usually do not see the main parking areas for lifestyle centers. They are hidden in the back or sides of the project sometimes contained w/in parking garages. They generally consist of mixed uses (retail/restaurants/offices/residential) on top of each other in the multi-stories of the development or at least adjacent to each other. They are not scattered in out-parcels like what is being suggested w/Pinnacle. That's really just a PUD (planned unit development.) There generally is a central green corridor or square built in the project that has gazebos, seating areas and activity areas in the these common areas.

The best two examples of I can think of off the top of my head that I am most familiar with are: Mizner Park in Boca Raton, FL. My first job when I was about your age FL was to oversee parts of this project from top to bottom.

The second one and probably my favorite on is Santana Row in San Jose, CA:

Yes I realize both these centers are in two very affluent cities and I definitely did not expect Pinnacle to look like these places, but it could have been designed in the same spirit but on a less upscale and smaller scale.

They did a pretty good job over in Destin at Destin Commons:

[TD]

I'd define it much like what GG stated above about Winter Garden Village. You usually do not see the main parking areas for lifestyle centers. They are hidden in the back or sides of the project sometimes contained w/in parking garages. They generally consist of mixed uses (retail/restaurants/offices/residential) on top of each other in the multi-stories of the development or at least adjacent to each other. They are not scattered in out-parcels like what is being suggested w/Pinnacle. That's really just a PUD (planned unit development.) There generally is a central green corridor or square built in the project that has gazebos, seating areas and activity areas in the these common areas.

The best two examples of I can think of off the top of my head that I am most familiar with are: Mizner Park in Boca Raton, FL. My first job when I was about your age FL was to oversee parts of this project from top to bottom.

The second one and probably my favorite on is Santana Row in San Jose, CA:

Yes I realize both these centers are in two very affluent cities and I definitely did not expect Pinnacle to look like these places, but it could have been designed in the same spirit but on a less upscale and smaller scale.

They did a pretty good job over in Destin at Destin Commons:

Exactly poon, this is what i was expecting, something like these, on a smaller scale.

[missnic]

Somewhere between St. Johns Town Center in Jax, and CocoWalk in Coconut Grove would be perfect.

I hate the Governor's Marketplace. Does anyone actually go to that weird little building with Alltel and Maytag? I never see anyone there. It's like it was put there to fill space rather than actually be part of the development.

[TD]

Somewhere between St. Johns Town Center in Jax, and CocoWalk in Coconut Grove would be perfect.

I hate the Governor's Marketplace. Does anyone actually go to that weird little building with Alltel and Maytag? I never see anyone there. It's like it was put there to fill space rather than actually be part of the development.

You would be surprised... I dont know about Maytag, but since they are a heavy weight in the appliance industry, im sure they do more business than you imagine,,

As far as Alltel, I can tell you that place is hopping usually, everytime I go by its packed... Alltel was the first cell provider in Tallahassee, and was here over 20 years ago.. People here are long time loyal patrons of Alltel.

Also, with the Recent My Circle Campaign, it is the best deal in Wireless.

[psycuda]

^That's not a Lifestyle Center, that's a long large Regional Strip Center.

And that is part of the issue with it for the local governments. Also, there is actually a newer version that might still be floating around that has the hotel at the end of the psuedo downtown main street section of the project.

[psycuda]

I'd define it much like what GG stated above about Winter Garden Village. You usually do not see the main parking areas for lifestyle centers. They are hidden in the back or sides of the project sometimes contained w/in parking garages. They generally consist of mixed uses (retail/restaurants/offices/residential) on top of each other in the multi-stories of the development or at least adjacent to each other. They are not scattered in out-parcels like what is being suggested w/Pinnacle. That's really just a PUD (planned unit development.) There generally is a central green corridor or square built in the project that has gazebos, seating areas and activity areas in the these common areas.

The best two examples of I can think of off the top of my head that I am most familiar with are: Mizner Park in Boca Raton, FL. My first job when I was about your age FL was to oversee parts of this project from top to bottom.

The second one and probably my favorite on is Santana Row in San Jose, CA:

Yes I realize both these centers are in two very affluent cities and I definitely did not expect Pinnacle to look like these places, but it could have been designed in the same spirit but on a less upscale and smaller scale.

They did a pretty good job over in Destin at Destin Commons:

MAybe not so much with Destin Commons, since all it is is a regular mall that is missing a roof and has a street running through the middle of it, surrounded by a moat of parking from 98 and 263.

[jpl02]

Has anyone given thought that the Pinnacle should be renamed? I mean, there is the existing Cross Creek Square along CCSE between Apalachee and Park Ave. Seeing how the Pinnacle will be in a different part of town, shouldn't it be renamed to avoid confusion?

Besides, the name "Pinnacle at Cross Creek" sounds sooooo stupid and pretentious. Pinnacle? Of what, bad planning?

[Florida]

Has anyone given thought that the Pinnacle should be renamed? I mean, there is the existing Cross Creek Square along CCSE between Apalachee and Park Ave. Seeing how the Pinnacle will be in a different part of town, shouldn't it be renamed to avoid confusion?

Besides, the name "Pinnacle at Cross Creek" sounds sooooo stupid and pretentious. Pinnacle? Of what, bad planning?

Pinnacle is a Brand that comes from Colonial. Cross Creek is a theme in this particular part of town. Across the Street we've got Cross Creek Restaurant, Cross Creek Driving Range... so I'm assuming that's why this development took that name. Although I'm not offended by the name of the mall, I wouldn't mind something different if that was the desire of the developer.

[poonther]

Besides, the name "Pinnacle at Cross Creek" sounds sooooo stupid and pretentious. Pinnacle? Of what, bad planning?

That was so bad, but so good.

I might suggest DeVoe's Shoppingtown?

Good to see you again psycuda. Got your parka on?

I agree that Destin Commons isn't a true lifestyle center either, but to me it's much closer to the idea than this Pinnacle proposal. I'd be a lot happier if they were to build it on the Destin Common's design than what they are currently proposing.

I'd still like to see them scrap the entire current plan, read a book on and visit and few lifestyle centers and then come back w/a better plans. If not, let's at least please please quit trying to fool ourselves and others and just call it what it will be: the big strip mall out at I-10 and 90.

[Florida]

I'd define it much like what GG stated above about Winter Garden Village. You usually do not see the main parking areas for lifestyle centers. They are hidden in the back or sides of the project sometimes contained w/in parking garages. They generally consist of mixed uses (retail/restaurants/offices/residential) on top of each other in the multi-stories of the development or at least adjacent to each other. They are not scattered in out-parcels like what is being suggested w/Pinnacle. That's really just a PUD (planned unit development.) There generally is a central green corridor or square built in the project that has gazebos, seating areas and activity areas in the these common areas.

The best two examples of I can think of off the top of my head that I am most familiar with are: Mizner Park in Boca Raton, FL. My first job when I was about your age FL was to oversee parts of this project from top to bottom.

The second one and probably my favorite on is Santana Row in San Jose, CA:

Yes I realize both these centers are in two very affluent cities and I definitely did not expect Pinnacle to look like these places, but it could have been designed in the same spirit but on a less upscale and smaller scale.

They did a pretty good job over in Destin at Destin Commons:

Realistically speaking, I never expected Tallahassee to get anything like those shown above, at least not this soon. As you stated, these are the type of developments that are built in more affluent areas, or vacation destinations. The Planner in me would prefer the above, the but judging from what I've seen in cities our size around the South East, I very much expected this from our developer which I don't particularly object to considering it will achieve the same purpose, and provide some much needed restaurants, retail shopping, and hotel and office space to this corridor. Having grown up out here, I know that many people have been waiting for this type of thing for quite a while. Many of us were disappointed in the late 90s that Summit East wasn't more like this, but few are disappointed at how Summit East is shaping up. I think this development is a great compliment to Summit East across the street.

[Florida]

Somewhere between St. Johns Town Center in Jax, and CocoWalk in Coconut Grove would be perfect.

I hate the Governor's Marketplace. Does anyone actually go to that weird little building with Alltel and Maytag? I never see anyone there. It's like it was put there to fill space rather than actually be part of the development.

I don't care for Governor's Marketplace either. Nothing about it is charming, there's no landscaping, all parking lot, no architectural detail in the design, just plain boxes lined up.

But I shop there.

[Florida]

That was so bad, but so good.

I might suggest DeVoe's Shoppingtown?

Good to see you again psycuda. Got your parka on?

I agree that Destin Commons isn't a true lifestyle center either, but to me it's much closer to the idea than this Pinnacle proposal. I'd be a lot happier if they were to build it on the Destin Common's design than what they are currently proposing.

I'd still like to see them scrap the entire current plan, read a book on and visit and few lifestyle centers and then come back w/a better plans. If not, let's at least please please quit trying to fool ourselves and others and just call it what it will be: the big strip mall out at I-10 and 90.

I'm sure when they go before the design review commission they'll make these type of suggestions. If DeVoe truly wants those permits, he'll act on their recommendations and we'll see a better site plan as a result.

[poonther]

You've been waiting on a big strip mall? I gotta agree w/GG on this one, that's selling us short. And of course I didn't expect Pinnacle to be what I've shown above, BUT it could have been in the spirit of a lifestyle center. This proposal isn't even close.

In Montgomery, AL which is a capital city just like us w/the same city and metro population has a hybrid lifestyle center called EastChase which is done much much better than our proposal. Montgomery even has to compete w/better shopping in B'ham only 80 miles away and ATL shopping 150 miles away, both of which are closer to them than Jax is to us. So I don't believe it can't be done in places like TLH. I say if they can do it, so can we and if you don't believe that, your selling this area short.

Here's a link to EastChase. Scroll down to the bottom of the page to see the site plan. What we are getting at Pinnacle is the orange shaded part on the far left. What I would have at LEAST preferred here would have been the other part of the development. Oh look they have a Dillard's out there too.

EastChase

[poonther]

I'm sure when they go before the design review commission they'll make these type of suggestions. If DeVoe truly wants those permits, he'll act on their recommendations and we'll see a better site plan as a result.

You're resting its design fate in the same hands that approved Gov's Marketplace?

[Florida]

You've been waiting on a big strip mall? I gotta agree w/GG on this one, that's selling us short. And of course I didn't expect Pinnacle to be what I've shown above, BUT it could have been in the spirit of a lifestyle center. This proposal isn't even close.

I'm actually a bit offended by your suggestion Poonther. I'm being realistic about my expectations. If you've been following along in this thread, as I'm sure you have, you would remember Psycuda telling us a while ago that this was going to be a linear development. I was disappointed then, but adjusted my expectations according the information I was given. I think we've had ample time to voice our objections to this dating back to when Psycuda first made us aware of the project's layout up until now, no one had. I'm actually more impressed with this design than I thought I would be.

I told a look at EastGate and I must say I don't think it's much different from what we've got proposed here at Cross Creek.

Map of EastGate shopping Center

Sure one portion is clustered together is a boxy fashion around what I'd assume is a courtyard of sorts, but does Pinnacle at Cross Creek not offer the same? There are 2 Main anchors, 3 if we count the Target, and a few jr. anchor stores and several small slots much like our proposal. The only difference is Pinnacle offers in addition to the shopping, an entertainment component with the movie theater which I consider a plus in its column. The portion from KHOL's to Target is completely strip mall, there's a road running through this development creating a significant separation between this Center's two core areas, making it less walkable, Pinnacle doesn't have a road creating such a separation. The impervious parking surface is no less that what is being proposed. for Cross Creek.

So if you truly look at what is being proposed objectively, I'm not selling Tallahassee short as you suggest. It's not exactly what I'd hoped for, but from the comparison with EastGate, it's much better than what they have.

Site Plan for Proposed Pinnacle at Cross Creek

[Florida]

Rumor Has it....

Bass Pro Shops is no longer looking at the Tallahassee Mall. They'd prefer interstate frontage with more visability according to a source, which we all know is something the Tallahassee Mall doesn't offer. Sources also say the mall has erected a large white wall between the former Dillard's department store and the remainder of the mall, with word circulating that mall reps are looking to lease the space for office use. I truly hope this isn't the case.

If you'd like to contact the mall about the information above, here's their contact:

Scott Jensen Ken Snyder

VP of Leasing Director of Leasing

Feldman Mall Properties, Inc.

2201 E. Camelback RD, Suite 350

Phoenix, AZ 85016-3431

(602) 277-5559

or locally

Specialty Leasing Information

Debbie Ashlin

Tallahassee Mall Management Office: (850) 385-7145.

[Florida]

I just spoke to someone in the mall management office who told me the Wall was erected because who ever comes to the mall will need to retrofit that space and this will allow them to. But it is not meant to be a permanent barrier. The rumor about offices coming to the mall is also just that, a rumor. The mall is currently looking to lease that space to a retailer.

[Gearhart~]

That sucks about the Tallahassee Mall, I know they really need something right now.....

I cant wait for a big mouth billy bass shop to come here though

[Go Gators]

I told a look at EastGate and I must say I don't think it's much different from what we've got proposed here at Cross Creek.

Map of EastGate shopping Center

So if you truly look at what is being proposed objectively, I'm not selling Tallahassee short as you suggest. It's not exactly what I'd hoped for, but from the comparison with EastGate, it's much better than what they have.

Site Plan for Proposed Pinnacle at Cross Creek

No where near the same. Eastgate has a cluster of buildings where you are able to walk quickly from one shop to the next whereas Pinnacle has a long strip of shops with a few other buildings fronting it. There really is no "village" feel to the site plan of Pinnacle. From Dillards, and all the shops to the right, there is no room for parking, allowing for a pedestrian friendly area without having to be cramed in on a sidewalk infront of the stores. The Target strip at Eastgate is similar to what we're getting. Unforunately, this is a glorified strip mall. Another hyped up project with disappointing results (in terms of layout, the stores will be fine Im sure, overall).

[Florida]

No where near the same. Eastgate has a cluster of buildings where you are able to walk quickly from one shop to the next whereas Pinnacle has a long strip of shops with a few other buildings fronting it. There really is no "village" feel to the site plan of Pinnacle. From Dillards, and all the shops to the right, there is no room for parking, allowing for a pedestrian friendly area without having to be cramed in on a sidewalk infront of the stores. The Target strip at Eastgate is similar to what we're getting. Unforunately, this is a glorified strip mall. Another hyped up project with disappointing results (in terms of layout, the stores will be fine Im sure, overall).

No where near the same? What do you call the area in the circle above? One could argue there's just as much a village feel to this layout than there is on the other. Looks like there's plenty of parking to me around the Dillards. The pedestrian friendliness of the center is unclear because there's not enough detail in the images, for either mall, but what's certain is that no one has to cross a street to go from one store to another at the Pinnacle. Again, in my opinion, all of these "Lifestyle Centers" are glorified strip malls.

[bighardrivesrule]

You've been waiting on a big strip mall? I gotta agree w/GG on this one, that's selling us short. And of course I didn't expect Pinnacle to be what I've shown above, BUT it could have been in the spirit of a lifestyle center. This proposal isn't even close.

In Montgomery, AL which is a capital city just like us w/the same city and metro population has a hybrid lifestyle center called EastChase which is done much much better than our proposal. Montgomery even has to compete w/better shopping in B'ham only 80 miles away and ATL shopping 150 miles away, both of which are closer to them than Jax is to us. So I don't believe it can't be done in places like TLH. I say if they can do it, so can we and if you don't believe that, your selling this area short.

Here's a link to EastChase. Scroll down to the bottom of the page to see the site plan. What we are getting at Pinnacle is the orange shaded part on the far left. What I would have at LEAST preferred here would have been the other part of the development. Oh look they have a Dillard's out there too.

EastChase

I have been to East Chase several times and liked it. The only bad thing I can say is that it finally killed off Montgomery Mall and is beating up Eastdale mall too. I wish we had Eastdale's ice skating rink in one of our Malls.

Video of Mall and Ice Skating

[bighardrivesrule]

Maybe they could do away with the Residental behind it in this site plan. Then move the line of stores back with another row store in front of them. It seems like they would then have something similiar to Destin maybe.

Just a thought.