Would you move to Canada?

[Scott]

I live in a city where people flock from around the world to educate their children on the highest level (Harvard, MIT) or recieve medical care at the highest level (Mass General Hospital). Strangely alot of these people come from countries that have free healthcare and free universities. What conclusions would that lead you to? We have a healthcare crisis in the US but adopting the Canadian system will not improve it. IMO

[Scott]

btw- I really like Canada and Canadians alot, as I know quite a few. This thread is about politics and such and my responses should not be viewed as an attack on that people or nation.

[Canuck]

btw- I really like Canada and Canadians alot, as I know quite a few. This thread is about politics and such and my responses should not be viewed as an attack on that people or nation.

I didn't see them as offensive at all.

I live in a city where people flock from around the world to educate their children on the highest level (Harvard, MIT) or recieve medical care at the highest level (Mass General Hospital). Strangely alot of these people come from countries that have free healthcare and free universities. What conclusions would that lead you to? We have a healthcare crisis in the US but adopting the Canadian system will not improve it. IMO

It's tough to reach conclusions based on this, but it just adds more to think about. As I was saying earlier each system has benefits and drawbacks. If there's one thing I admire about America (and Americans in general) it's their entrepreneurial spirit and increased pendent for risk relative to Canadians.

That said the health system is flawed (again recognizing that not everyone sees it as this way, and indeed some see it as desireable), that so many are allowed to fall through the cracks. The individualistic nature - where everyone should be able to pull up their own boot straps or suffer the consequences - is a mentality that I don't subscribe to. My fellow countrymen and I are in this together, and I see his gain as my own. I just can't accept the 'tough luck' stance for those who were not given the same opportunities as myself. Besides, I like to simply break it down into thinking we're all human, and money means nothing for us when we're dead; so why not share a little now to improve the lives of all Canadians coast to coast (to coast)?

BTW: I thought I heard this before but I wanted to get some secondary confirmation. Is the U.S. the only industrialized country without some form of universal healthcare?

[Canuck]

Well, looking at numbers is always interesting. The bottom line however is that no place holds the title of utopia on this planet.

Indeed, life is all about tradeoffs; for if Utipia exists I'd like someone to point the way.

[BrandonTO416]

I live in a city where people flock from around the world to educate their children on the highest level (Harvard, MIT) or recieve medical care at the highest level (Mass General Hospital). Strangely alot of these people come from countries that have free healthcare and free universities. What conclusions would that lead you to? We have a healthcare crisis in the US but adopting the Canadian system will not improve it. IMO

And I live in a part of the United States of America that is rural.

A hospital in the rural county over from me had to digitally fax some x-rays off to be examined - because the hospital there did not have the capacity to treat its patients properly. It happened to be a person close to the family - they were doing some mountain biking or something out in the area and got hurt badly and that was the closest treatment they could get.

Another story - I'm near the TN/KY border, and when I visited someone in the hospital barely a few years ago, I visited a hospital in rural Eastern Kentucky where they were using IV systems that looked ancient - you know, glass bottles?

This has more to do with the fact that more populated areas with more research and technology are automatically going to be better off.

Anyway - the thing is, you live in one of *the* largest cities of the United States, in a hotbed of research and education and high tech everything.

You have to think in relative terms. You can't think "well people come from all over to a great research center down the road so that makes our system superior" because despite that - tens of millions of people in our own country don't even have proper access to health services.

And like I said, I've heard of people going to Canada for select drug treatments that aren't available here. The truth is, you won't find nearly as much of that in the news - because they are far smaller.

I never said we should go to a Canadian healthcare system. I'm making the argument that you have to be pragmatic and not think in terms of "well people come from all over to Boston - thus the entire US healthcare system is automatically better."

[BrandonTO416]

Scott - btw - I just want you to understand that I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing for the most part. I find it an interesting debate - but its not the most important thing if we agree or disagree.

I do not hold anything anyone says personal. We all have our own likes and dislikes.

But I do think you are relying on far too many generalizations. We hear about stories of people coming from other countries for medical care, and it is true that the US is the center of a good portion of world medical research. But there are positives and negatives to every system.

There are quite a few scientific discoveries made in Europe that happen years before they ever make it to American soil - on top of what we are discussing.

But again - and I repeat - as far as Canada goes, something you need to focus on is pure size. They have 31 million people. They don't have the capacity to have more research and investment as the USA.

But its amazing what Canadians do for their size! They are more productive then we are per proportion to their size. Afterall, it wasn't the US CDC that mapped out the SARS virus first - it was a lab in Vancouver. LOL

[monsoon]

[Scott]

Alot of hospitals in the US take federal funds to provide a certain amount of "Free Care" for the poor. The problem is with the middle class trying to keep the system afloat in the face of rising costs.

An article in the Transport forum talks about a bus strike in California and one of the dividing issues is health care costs and how insurance is to be paid for.

[Cotuit]

In the USA there is a failsafe for medical care. Anyone (regardless of citizenship) can walk into the county hospital (not private hospitals) and by law have to be given care.

I don't know about that. In the Northeast there are no County Hospitals. There may be some city hospitals but not all population areas have access to them. Besides, a medical version of 'Chew n' Screw' is hardly a way to run a medical system in the wealthiest country in the planet's history.

[daniel18]

I'd rather move to Australia. I wonder how the quality of life is in Australia compared to Canada and the U.S.

[BrandonTO416]

Well, if the USA had universal healthcare - health benefits would not be an issue for business to worry with. It'd help small businesses particularly.

Universal healthcare is a win-win situation overall. Business is freed up from the red tape that those benefits require, everyone gets coverage regardless, and it keeps insurance claims lawsuits from happening - there is no reason to sue to get insurance money when universal healthcare exists.

[G W North]

A minor correction. The violent crime rate in Canada is actually higher than in the USA. Violent crime including, rape, theft, assaults, etc. It is the homocide rate that is much higher in the USA.

Do you have numbers showing that the violent crime rate is higher in Canada?

It sould also be noted the suicide rate is higher in Canada as well with some demographics exceeding 15%!!!.

I assume you mean 15/1000 and not 15%.

As for healthcare, I feel one of the major issues leading to waste in the United States in both hospitals and private practices is the fact that they have to waste resources tracking down people to get them to pay in many instances. In Canada, hospitals and doctors know that the government will always pay, so they don't have to use resource getting their money.

[JunktionFET]

I've only been to Niagara Falls (Fort Erie) and Toronto. Toronto was awesome IMO, and the people were actually friendly.

It would take a helluva lot to get me to move that far away from the people I know and love. I think I would move to LA before I moved to Canada--the climate is awesome. Toronto's climate isn't exactly my thing.

I don't think I would readily want to change my citizenship.

[BrandonTO416]

Do you have numbers showing that the violent crime rate is higher in Canada?

I assume you mean 15/1000 and not 15%.

As for healthcare, I feel one of the major issues leading to waste in the United States in both hospitals and private practices is the fact that they have to waste resources tracking down people to get them to pay in many instances. In Canada, hospitals and doctors know that the government will always pay, so they don't have to use resource getting their money.

Not only is that waste, Token, but its in other areas.

Local hospitals in Nashville spend heavily on advertising (no joke). They spend hundreds of thousands a year on advertising fees - Vanderbilt, the Tri-Star hospitals, St. Thomas, and Baptist are the local Nashville chains that I see regular advertising from.

My question is - why do we see so many of these generic advertisements? If you are sick and badly need medical care - you go to the nearest hospital, and if they cannot handle it you generally get transferred to another one. Why is there a need to advertise - when you have an emergency, you have little choice in where you go.

What you said is absolutely right - administrative fees alone cost upwards of 30% of all healthcare costs in the US system. Figuring out which insurance company is going to pay, making sure they pay, or filing claims with the end user - its all a hellacious mess.

Another issue of massive, huge waste in the American system is lawsuits. Many people have to sue their insurance company - many do it rightfully just trying to get their fair share, but greedy lawyers do tend to ask for more then they should. Then there are those who just file frivilous lawsuits. In a universal healthcare system - there is no reason to sue insurance companies. You have coverage, no questions asked. So much waste and red tape because of this, plus it feeds rising costs. The solution isn't limiting the ability to sue (Bush's way of fixing it), its fixing the core problem so people won't have to sue.

Drug companies love to price-gouge the common prescription buyer by saying their insane fees are needed for Research and Development, only to find out most companies spend more on marketing/advertising and wastes like that then Research and Development.

The American system of healthcare is not the worst in the world, but its falling flat on its feet in its ability to function properly. Each year that passes by, prices fly beyond the rate of inflation in astronomical proportions. More and more people are being denied needed procedures - even if they have insurance! Its just a MESS!

[mancuso]

There are a few places such as Vancouver, Montreal and Ottawa that I wouldn't mind living in, but I wouldn't move there as a "political refugee"; running from the "tyranny" of the Bush Administration. The chance of something happening in the US that would force me to leave is highly unlikely. Besides, I would stay and overthrow the gov't and install myself as ruler...

[Frank]

No way would I ever consider moving to Canada. In fact I prefer a more conservative-dominated "scenario" over a liberal one.

My opinion, for what it's worth: Liberals have alot of good ideas, but the ideas aren't practical, and can't be successfully translated into actions.

[BrandonTO416]

Frank - its great to have strong personal convictions and your own opinion. Far too many people don't have an opinion and thus don't vote or don't care.

[BrandonTO416]

By the way, I think its ironic that I tend to think the exact opposite.

I see conservative ideals as too conforming socially - not practical to carry out.

I also see conservative economic policy as too idealistic. The idea that the market can regulate itself out in every sector is just impractical. It simply doesn't - there needs to be basic rules. Government is needed to an extent - particularly in utilities, healthcare, and education.

But again - I just wished more people had an opinion. So many people it seems don't.

[Scott]

Heckles are you from the US or Canada? If I had thought you were Canadian then I would have answered the question differently and told you more people leave Canada for the US than the reverse and that you should worry about the problems of your own country before worrying about foreign politics.

[Guest donaltopablo]

As far as myself, I am very strong in my opinions. But I'm also a moderator, so I like some things liberals do, some things conversatives do. This can make things difficult since I agree with some things conversative, other liberal ideas I prefer. Often times when I have to pick a rep. for government, I am stuck with the choice between the two.

[BrandonTO416]

Heckles are you from the US or Canada? If I had thought you were Canadian then I would have answered the question differently and told you more people leave Canada for the US than the reverse and that you should worry about the problems of your own country before worrying about foreign politics.

Scott - I'm a native born American who grew up in the rural southeast. And FYI: I've never been to Boston, where you live. The only America I've ever known is the overbearing majority of the land area of this country that is ruled by raging conservatives that do not allow dissent. If you lived out here... you may view things differently too.

And the fact that there are more Canadians moving south then migrating north does not prove a great deal; what it may prove is that those Canadians want warmer weather. I personally am not bothered by the weather in Canada.

And just so you know, throughout the 1960's and 1970's, US to Canadian immigration was at an all time high (thousands more migrated north of the border then those moving south) - I assume much of that because of the Vietnam War. A lot of the "Canadians" moving back are actually American.

So the facts aren't that clear - plus I hear the trend is changing. Now /w the war in Iraq and our failing policies, StatsCan may reveal that the US to Canada immigration has jumped and the Canada to US immigration has slowed tremendously.

[UK_D]

Well, since i live in England i dont know how bad the government situation is in the USA, but if worst came to worst Canada is the only other country i would even consider moving too. Probably Toronto or Calgary. I voted yes.

[Guest donaltopablo]

Heckles - you should visit Boston before deciding on moving to Canada. It's a great American city, pretty liberal, and very dense.

The only America I've ever known is the overbearing majority of the land area of this country that is ruled by raging conservatives that do not allow dissent

Hmm, wow, must be something going on in TN I've never seen. I still say I don't care for overly conservative or overly liberal people, but I don't find enough of either at the moment to be complete unbearable. Even more so considering you always have the option of voting them out.

[BrandonTO416]

Boston still hasn't got universal healthcare and is still "conservative" in many senses I hear.

[Twin Cities]

I would move to Vancouver in a second and I would even consider Winnipeg. Although it (Winnipeg) is struggling, I still find it to be a very interesting place with a lot of potential.