CU-ICAR/Millennium Campus

[btoy]

Ya and doesn't Verdae call four a cluster of 5, 30 story towers?

[vicupstate]

Ya and doesn't Verdae call four a cluster of 5, 30 story towers?

30 stories, that's a new one on me. I thought they were midrises. 4-6 stories, something like that.

[btoy]

I went back and checked what articles I could find, I would have sworn I saw some where that the cluster of five buildings shown on the plan for that area along Laruens Rd, between I-85 and Verdae Blvd. called for 30 story towers. I think I was off in my memory by 10 stories.

Here is what I found in the Greenville NEws article about the Verdae Master Plan.

"Where two new Hollingsworth-owned office buildings already exist, the Bonaventure office park will be developed between Verdae and I-85, though the 15- to 20-story office buildings and 10-story hotels developers envision will take years to materialize, Monroe said. "

[goodbye]

As I noted when the Verdae slide presentation went public, it was very interesting that every photo they showed on the office slide was of high-rises. Greenville has a planned future along I-85, whether we all will see it in our lifetimes or not. So far I don't know of any other city in the state with this level of planned expectation, though that doesn't mean the others won't develop just as fast or large.

[Greenville]

I still think Verdae will be the next popular neighborhood/night life/hangout area of Greenville. With the master plan being what it is, and the main street-style retail and dining planned, people will want to be there. Especially if it is urbanized by a nice cluster of high-rises. I can't wait!

[krazeeboi]

Apparently, Verdae will be a city within a city--something akin to Baxter Village in Fort Mill. I also think that Millenium Campus and ICAR qualify for that description as well. But it seems that they will blend together rather nicely, as I'm sure a significant portion of Millenium Campus and ICAR employees will live in Verdae.

[csedwards72]

I don't see how these office parks will ever materialize as promised, and I hope they don't. Greenville's suburban office space is already way overbuilt, and there is a high vacancy rate. The only area for office space that is doing well in Greenville is downtown. Anyhow, if these office parks do materialize, they will significantly hinder downtown development. Imagine how many new stores and restaurants would spring up downtown if all of this new office space went there instead of in the suburbs.

[goodbye]

If recent history is any indicator of the future, Greenville will continue to grow at a very high rate. The focus we see today in downtown is mainly due to the high-level of pedestrian-friendly areas and the expectancy that they will expand further out. It is my understanding that increased office development along I-85 will only help strengthen the visibility and desireability of our downtown. You must realize that thousands of travelers go trough Greenville on I-85 everyday and still think it is a "podunk" town in a rural, backward state. Of course we know otherwise, but Greenville will never receive its just recognition until everyone driving up and down the Interstate witnesses the names of high quality companies who've located their headquarters in the well-planned communities here. No, this won't take anything from downtown in the long run. Downtown is far too well established and growing to be harmed by such suburban developments. Consider how much it has grown without the visibility!

[krazeeboi]

How far will Millenium Campus be located from the CBD?

[GvilleSC]

How far will Millenium Campus be located from the CBD?

geee, I'd guess 5-6 miles??? maybe more or less...?

[csedwards72]

If recent history is any indicator of the future, Greenville will continue to grow at a very high rate. The focus we see today in downtown is mainly due to the high-level of pedestrian-friendly areas and the expectancy that they will expand further out. It is my understanding that increased office development along I-85 will only help strengthen the visibility and desireability of our downtown. You must realize that thousands of travelers go trough Greenville on I-85 everyday and still think it is a "podunk" town in a rural, backward state. Of course we know otherwise, but Greenville will never receive its just recognition until everyone driving up and down the Interstate witnesses the names of high quality companies who've located their headquarters in the well-planned communities here. No, this won't take anything from downtown in the long run. Downtown is far too well established and growing to be harmed by such suburban developments. Consider how much it has grown without the visibility!

Good point but what about people who visit only Greenville's downtown? Currently it has about 50% of the county's office space, which is pretty good. Let's say that over the next ten years, Greenville attracts five million square feet of office space. If all of it goes downtown, downtown's office space would just about double, and there would also be restaurants, stores, etc. that spring up to accompany that. If only 50% or 25% of that new office space goes downtown, downtown will expand at a much slower rate. People who visit downtown might not realize how large Greenville's white-collar employment base is if only a small fraction of office space is built downtown. As a former NYC resident, seeing the BB&T building's 20-some stories as the tallest building in town makes me think that Greenville is a nice town but just a smallish town. A nice 30-story office building towntown would help change that image, but we need development shifted downtown to have something like that occur.

I just think that we'd have a much nicer center if civic leaders would try to shift development downtown. Look how much nicer our center is after a few entertainment venues and some new office buildings were built downtown; nice stores and restaurants followed, creating a nice area. Downtown will be so much better if even more is built there in the future rather than allowing development to sprawl all around town.

Edited October 3, 2005 by csedwards72

[motonenterprises]

I kind of agree. I would rather see these tall building downtown, but I will take them even if they are on I-85. Would be nice if downtown could be seen from I-85.

[goodbye]

I totally understand your comments, csedwards72. I personally would love to see all future office space built in downtown only, but I know that won't happen. There are a few questions that go into my reasoning:

1. What would be developed on these properties, if not what has been planned?
   
2. Would the development of downtown be faster without the I-85 visibility or not?
   
3. Would more people actually stop and get to know Greenville as a result of the large corporations and beautiful communities along I-85?
   
4. Has this kind of development hurt other downtowns across the USA?
   

[csedwards72]

I totally understand your comments, csedwards72. I personally would love to see all future office space built in downtown only, but I know that won't happen. There are a few questions that go into my reasoning:

1. What would be developed on these properties, if not what has been planned?
   
   
   
2. Would the development of downtown be faster without the I-85 visibility or not?
   
   
   
3. Would more people actually stop and get to know Greenville as a result of the large corporations and beautiful communities along I-85?
   
   
   
4. Has this kind of development hurt other downtowns across the USA?
   

You make some really good points. Development visible to people along I-85 may well attract development throughout Greenville. I hope that it will.

In Charlotte, look at South Tryon Street, near Wachovia's HQ, and North Tryon Street, near Bank of America's HQ. Wachovia built a large part of its office space in University City rather than uptown. Bank of America focused its office development uptown. As a result, South Tryon Street is surrounded by some office buildings but a lot of parking lots. North Tryon Street is surrounded by nice office buildings, restaurants, museums, etc. and is relatively more vibrant. If Wachovia had focused its construction uptown, uptown Charlotte would be a lot larger and would have many more restaurants, stores, etc. I see the parking lots between Main and Church Streets in Greenville and just imagine how many nice things could be built on them rather than in the suburbs.

I just see that the development of Haywood Road in the 1980s killed downtown retail for 15 years; if city planners had aimed to keep retail downtown rather than allowing places like Congaree and Haywood Roads to spring up, I think Greenville would have been a nicer place. Similarly, I'd prefer to have office space built downtown, as restaurants and stores spring up to serve office workers, creating a more vibrant area. Getting even a Border's bookstore and things like that downtown would be much easier if the CBD had a lot more office space.

Greenville's suburban office market isn't exactly thriving anyhow; if I were a developer, I wouldn't build more space in a submarket with a 27.5% vacancy rate:

http://www.southeastrebusiness.com/article.../snapshot1.html

Edited October 3, 2005 by csedwards72

[goodbye]

I read that column a couple weeks ago. It is a very interesting and good read. The great thing about these planned towers along I-85 is that they are targeted for new corporate headquarters and not relocating businesses in Greenville.

I see the tremendous improvements to visibility along I-85 as a catalyst for downtown Greenville. The growth rate will continue regardless of these new developments, but with them I think we'll see growth unlike any in the Upstate's history.

[btoy]

I don't see how these office parks will ever materialize as promised, and I hope they don't. Greenville's suburban office space is already way overbuilt, and there is a high vacancy rate. The only area for office space that is doing well in Greenville is downtown. Anyhow, if these office parks do materialize, they will significantly hinder downtown development. Imagine how many new stores and restaurants would spring up downtown if all of this new office space went there instead of in the suburbs.

I read that column a couple weeks ago. It is a very interesting and good read. The great thing about these planned towers along I-85 is that they are targeted for new corporate headquarters and not relocating businesses in Greenville.

I see the tremendous improvements to visibility along I-85 as a catalyst for downtown Greenville. The growth rate will continue regardless of these new developments, but with them I think we'll see growth unlike any in the Upstate's history.

Another thing to remember is that these are long term master plans. Verdea is a 35 year master plan. It is possible that it could be 30 years or more before some of that stuff will be built, Greenville will look totally different then. And by then Downtown could be really short of space for new towers.

But look at Atlanta, we will never be as big as atlanta, but it has has thriving urban centers while still haveing large office buildings along the interstate in suburban areas.

One thing to think of as well. Some companies arn't interested in putting their offices in the CBD, some prefer interstate visibility.

[gs3]

Have really enjoyed reading all the post this morning, and would like to weigh in. IMHO, Greenville has a great downtown that will continue to boom (look at the amount of developments), but Greenville can not and should not put all it's eggs into one basket. To create the dramatic transformation that is happening along 85 seems perfectly right to me! Think if this area becomes another "downtown".....what if Greenville had three "downtowns" or four or five! Imagine! I've lived in cities that focused on one area only, and I can tell you it's a sad state of events. Greenville needs to keep downtown booming and pumping, and at the same time, export some of this energy to other areas of the city (which it seems to be doing with Verdae, ICAR, Millenium Campus, The Point and Greenridge)!

[krazeeboi]

Hmmmm...this new perspective has put a spin on things for me.

From the article posted earlier, it seems as though Millenium Campus is more of an afterthought. Am I accurate in this assessment?

Secondly, it would seem as though Millenium Campus is comparable in some ways to NCSU's Centennial Campus in Raleigh, which is not located in the CBD--and ICAR is comparable to Research Triangle Park. Particularly, it would seem as though the latter is responsible in some way for a lot of Raleigh's sprawl, and we all know about Greenville's affinity for sprawl. I would actually like to see at least one of these developments to somehow become weaved into the urban fabric of Greenville's downtown, much like Columbia plans to do with USC's research campus. I actually think that what Columbia plans to do is a first, as most of these types of campuses are built away from the CBD. I think it is a sensible concept.

I have nothing against different centers of activity located within a city; as a matter of fact, I like that. But most seem to be residential in nature, not corporate like Millenium Campus and ICAR. You don't hear Raleighites talking about how RTP is such a great place to hang out after hours because it was not designed to function as such. I think Verdae will genuinely become a "town within a town" purely because it will be a town center, but as for Millenium Campus and ICAR, it will be primarily a 9-5 thing.

I understand the concept of promoting visibility from I-85, but I really don't put too much stock into that concept. I'm glad SC's leaders got the interstate concept right in this state--our's don't tear through the hearts of downtown areas and create gaps in the urban fabric of our cities. I know that interstates are often used as a method of "showcasing" the cities they run through to passers-by, but I could really care less about that "pretty postcard" mentality. I'm not saying that we shouldn't locate anything significant on our interstates, but if one truly wants to make an accurate assessment of a city, then he/she should actually take the time to drive into the city. I find nothing charming about barrelling down an interstate at 80 mph, and to judge a city's economic status by such a method is, IMO, ridiculous.

Edited October 5, 2005 by krazeeboi

[Greenville]

Interesting discussion. I definitely see both sides of this issue.

When I first saw that there will be 5 towers of 20+ stories at Verdae, with others possibly at the Millennium Campus, I knew that I would prefer to have them downtown. I thought about the impact 5-6 tall buildings would have on the impression others get when seeing our city, the transformed skyline, etc.

After thinking about it some, I realized that we need development other places as well. Successful cities have urban clusters aside from just downtown. Big, urban cities have neighborhoods that are truly urban. Verdae will be that for Greenville, and could be a catalyst that make the city really shine in the eyes of others and make it a truly recognizable city. And as Brad Toy pointed out, Verdae's plan is a 25-30 year plan. We won't see any highrises at Verdae in the next few years. By the time we do, downtown and the CBD will probably be radically different in appearance and feel. Also by then, we will probably have light rail/subway in place and will have a much more connected city.

Think about the possibilities! It's so exciting!

[gs3]

Hmmmm...this new perspective has put a spin on things for me.

From the article posted earlier, it seems as though Millenium Campus is more of an afterthought. Am I accurate in this assessment?

Secondly, it would seem as though Millenium Campus is comparable in some ways to NCSU's Centennial Campus in Raleigh, which is not located in the CBD--and ICAR is comparable to Research Triangle Park. Particularly, it would seem as though the latter is responsible in some way for a lot of Raleigh's sprawl, and we all know about Greenville's affinity for sprawl.

A couple of unique situations with these developments. First, all of these developments join and touch....they all share boundaries and form one large, uninterupted development. Common through streets, interconnected greenways and sidewalks, etc are being planned. Second, if they were built down 385 in Simpsonville, on the edge of the metro, I would be more likely to label them as sprawl. They are really much more infill, as they are almost exactly square in the middle of the metro, right between the junctions of 85, 276, 385. This was one extremely large chunk of land that is now being developed with density and it's in the center of the metro, so in some way, this should help reduce outlying sprawl as it will continue to funnel people inward toward the center of the metro, not outward into sprawlville.

[krazeeboi]

Interesting...

[goodbye]

Hmmmm...this new perspective has put a spin on things for me.

From the article posted earlier, it seems as though Millenium Campus is more of an afterthought. Am I accurate in this assessment?

Secondly, it would seem as though Millenium Campus is comparable in some ways to NCSU's Centennial Campus in Raleigh, which is not located in the CBD--and ICAR is comparable to Research Triangle Park. Particularly, it would seem as though the latter is responsible in some way for a lot of Raleigh's sprawl, and we all know about Greenville's affinity for sprawl. I would actually like to see at least one of these developments to somehow become weaved into the urban fabric of Greenville's downtown, much like Columbia plans to do with USC's research campus. I actually think that what Columbia plans to do is a first, as most of these types of campuses are built away from the CBD. I think it is a sensible concept.

I have nothing against different centers of activity located within a city; as a matter of fact, I like that. But most seem to be residential in nature, not corporate like Millenium Campus and ICAR. You don't hear Raleighites talking about how RTP is such a great place to hang out after hours because it was not designed to function as such. I think Verdae will genuinely become a "town within a town" purely because it is will be a town center, but as for Millenium Campus and ICAR, it will be primarily a 9-5 thing.

I understand the concept of promoting visibility from I-85, but I really don't put too much stock into that concept. I'm glad SC's leaders got the interstate concept right in this state--our's don't tear through the hearts of downtown areas and create gaps in the urban fabric of our cities. I know that interstates are often used as a method of "showcasing" the cities they run through to passers-by, but I could really care less about that "pretty postcard" mentality. I'm not saying that we shouldn't locate anything significant on our interstates, but if one truly wants to make an accurate assessment of a city, then he/she should actually take the time to drive into the city. I find nothing charming about barrelling down an interstate at 80 mph, and to judge a city's economic status by such a method is, IMO, ridiculous.

To say that these developments are planned simply to draw attention to themselves is rather ridiculous. The same could be said about their so-called "contributing to suburban sprawl." It seems quite clear to me that you just don't understand the positive impact these developments are likely to have on the Upstate. Greenville is already a very desireable place to live, and these kinds of plans are only helping to solidify and strengthen the area's ability to attract higher level corporations from around the Nation and the World. Along with the other developments mentioned, is the Global Trade Center, another business park along I-85 (and neighbor to Millennium Campus) designed to serve as a place for companies in China and Europe to plant roots on U.S. soil.

ICAR

Verdae Development Master Plan

MillenniumCampus.com

D3 Technologies, Inc. - Aviation Engineering Regional Headquarters at Global Trade Center

[Spartan]

I don't think this will slow or stop sprawl at all. However, its success will further facilitate the development of similar projects throughout the Upstate and South Carolina.

Spawl isn't going anywhere. We just have to figure out how to manage it. This is a great opportunity to prove that we can handle TOD and denser living arangements in this area.

Greenville County has to take some more measures to promote smart growth. They are taking small steps as it is, and as the county continues to grow they will take more steps.

[krazeeboi]

To say that these developments are planned simply to draw attention to themselves is rather ridiculous. The same could be said about their so-called "contributing to suburban sprawl."

To say such would indeed be ridiculous, however I never said, or even implied, that these developments are "planned simply to draw attention to themselves." It is quite obvious that the developments that are being spoken of will be economic catalysts for the city of Greenville and the Upstate. It's not the developments themselves that I am questioning, but simply their placement, or more precisely, the philosophy behind their placement. Also, in my previous post, I was simply making observations and not hard-and-fast conclusions on the matter.

It seems quite clear to me that you just don't understand the positive impact these developments are likely to have on the Upstate.

I'm not seeing how you could have gotten that out of anything I stated in my last post. I never spoke of the nature of these developments, as it is apparent, once again, that they will contribute significantly to the economy of the Upstate. HOWEVER, it is not my belief that their placement right off I-85 will either automatically heighten or diminish their importance in any way. Also, apart from the Verdae development, I'm not seeing how ICAR or Millenium Campus will become "alternative downtowns" within Greenville--that is, if we're speaking of pedestrian activity after 5pm.

Edited October 4, 2005 by krazeeboi

[btoy]

To say such would indeed be ridiculous, however I never said, or even implied, that these developments are "planned simply to draw attention to themselves." It is quite obvious that the developments that are being spoken of will be economic catalysts for the city of Greenville and the Upstate. It's not the developments themselves that I am questioning, but simply their placement, or more precisely, the philosophy behind their placement. Also, in my previous post, I was simply making observations and not hard-and-fast conclusions on the matter.

I'm not seeing how you could have gotten that out of anything I stated in my last post. I never spoke of the nature of these developments, as it is apparent, once again, that they will contribute significantly to the economy of the Upstate. HOWEVER, it is not my belief that their placement right off I-85 will either automatically heighten or diminish their importance in any way. Also, apart from the Verdae development, I'm not seeing how ICAR or Millenium Campus will become "alternative downtowns" within Greenville--that is, if we're speaking of pedestrian activity after 5pm.

You question the placement, but where else are you going to find 1600 acre with such great access and visibility that happens to lie in an area that is already provided with services?

OFten that amound of land is only found in rural areas, take the Matrix for example.