The Plaza

[downtowninvestor]

it doesent matter wether or not people live in the solaire but property tax is being paid

[Camillo Sitte]

it doesent matter wether or not people live in the solaire but property tax is being paid

Uhh, not if the owners of those properties default on their loans.

Have you been reading/watching the news lately or has the nationwide home mortgage default crisis [with ORLANDO being one of the worst cities hit] escaped you?

[FLheat]

Uhh, not if the owners of those properties default on their loans.

Have you been reading/watching the news lately or has the nationwide home mortgage default crisis [with ORLANDO being one of the worst cities hit] escaped you?

Property taxes always have a priority lien (ahead of the mortgage). The city will always get its money. In foreclosure, the lender typically will use corporate advances to keep the taxes current to avoid the additional expense of tax sale or penalties and interest.

[Camillo Sitte]

Property taxes always have a priority lien (ahead of the mortgage). The city will always get its money. In foreclosure, the lender typically will use corporate advances to keep the taxes current to avoid the additional expense of tax sale or penalties and interest.

Yes, of course but that isn't exactly the 'formula for success' that this project needs and was sold on nor does it account for the costs to the City that would be associated with claiming such funds.

That some eventual receiver will be obligated to pay some form of property tax isn't very reassuring. Neither does that account for unrealized business license revenue and sales tax on office rents and retail sales - not to mention the lost opportunity costs of the original $22 million.

I hope this project is eventually a success but it looks like the City could have done a better job with regards to it

[cwetteland]

And I respect your opinion [at least your right to it] but let's be clear as to what my post which you quoted was about to begin with: some ass-clown here started whining about, 'what business' did I have of criticizing this project yadda, yadda, yadda.

I responded that as an Orlando taxpayer, yes, even one wealthy enough to have homes in both Orlando and Los Angeles, I had every right to question the performance of a private project that was being financed at least in part, with some of my money.

Not once have I ever said or suggested that I want The Plaza to fail or that I was in any way against the concept of public/private urban redevelopment. I am however in favor of clear-headed fiscal responsibility when public money that is also needed in so many other areas [public education?] is at stake.

I am not saying that cities should not pursue redevelopment deals, even those using public money, they should. They should also be required to perform due diligence as to the realistic viability of the project being proposed.

IMHO Kuhne should have been required to have >50% of all condo, restaurant, and office space contracts signed and in place before the City handed over dollar one given that Kuhne himself has no track record with large-scale developments and has no personal assets with which to secure the loans/handouts.

Cheers.

Cheers ... we're good.

[jack]

Let's clear all of this up

1. The City loaned Kuhn $14 million plus interest. He paid back $15.4 million in November of 2006. The loan was based on libor and fluctuated but did not exceed 8%.

2. The project also received $3.5 million in a grant for the development of the project.

3. The theater operator receives $500,000 a year for 10 years. The money is to be paid annually. So if the theater never opens, they do not get paid. If it closes after a year. They will only get one payment.

4. The Solaire is to receive a tax increment rebate over 12 years. Doesn't matter if the units are not sold or the banks ownes them. The City will still get their money.

Any Questions?

Edited December 10, 2007 by jack

[pip]

Let's clear all of this up

1. The City loaned Kuhn $14 million plus interest. He paid back $15.4 million in November of 2006. The loan was based on libor and fluctuated but did not exceed 8%.

2. The project also received $3.5 million in a grant for the development of the project.

3. The theater operator receives $500,000 a year for 10 years. The money is to be paid annually. So if the theater never opens, they do not get paid. If it closes after a year. They will only get one payment.

4. The Solaire is to receive a tax increment rebate over 12 years. Doesn't matter if the units are not sold or the banks ownes them. The City will still get their money.

Any Questions?

Thanks Jack. was about to post a simliar post.

[Camillo Sitte]

Let's clear all of this up

1. The City loaned Kuhn $14 million plus interest. He paid back $15.4 million in November of 2006. The loan was based on libor and fluctuated but did not exceed 8%.

2. The project also received $3.5 million in a grant for the development of the project.

3. The theater operator receives $500,000 a year for 10 years. The money is to be paid annually. So if the theater never opens, they do not get paid. If it closes after a year. They will only get one payment.

4. The Solaire is to receive a tax increment rebate over 12 years. Doesn't matter if the units are not sold or the banks ownes them. The City will still get their money.

Any Questions?

Nothing to clear up other than that you basically just posted a recapitulation of what I have said previously.

Once again, I only posted what I did in response to a post directed at me specifically where some ass-hat posted that I basically had no right to question the performance of The Plaza as none of "my" money was at stake.

I was simply debunking that prevarication...

As to the larger issue, understand that for the tax-paying citizens of Orlando at-large, the performance of the condo and office space parts of the project are less important in terms of the public money given to this project even if much of those funds can be considered secure.

The parts of the project which concern the rest of the City are the restaurant and theater projects. If the restaurant and theater parts fail

[palmtree73]

Nothing to clear up other than that you basically just posted a recapitulation of what I have said previously.

Once again, I only posted what I did in response to a post directed at me specifically where some ass-hat posted that I basically had no right to question the performance of The Plaza as none of "my" money was at stake.

I was simply debunking that prevarication...

As to the larger issue, understand that for the tax-paying citizens of Orlando at-large, the performance of the condo and office space parts of the project are less important in terms of the public money given to this project even if much of those funds can be considered secure.

The parts of the project which concern the rest of the City are the restaurant and theater projects. If the restaurant and theater parts fail

[Camillo Sitte]

While giving money to for-profit ventures can be a thorny issue, I think that calling something a failure before it's been open a full year is a bit premature

I for one have never said nor suggested that this project is yet a failure, I was simply highlighting some very real problems as opposed to some here who believe it is a success just because it has added some volumetric density to the city core...

[jack]

Give it time, it takes a project a while to stabilize. If in a year it looks this way, then we have problems. MOst of the retail leases are signed, it is taking them a while to get in there.

[JRS1]

well, here's what I do know about the Plaza as of today (retail-wise):

1. Urban Flats-- opened

2. Salon Elyse-- opened

3. Cold Stone-- buildout-- almost done

4. Bento Cafe-- buildout

5. Volcanos-- buildout

6. Corona Cigar-- buildout

7. Bola Italian Eatery-- met with the owners last month-- buildout to begin in January

8. AMC 12-- buildout-- more than halfway done; walls up; etc... target is Valentine's Day.

[pip]

well, here's what I do know about the Plaza as of today (retail-wise):

1. Urban Flats-- opened

2. Salon Elyse-- opened

3. Cold Stone-- buildout-- almost done

4. Bento Cafe-- buildout

5. Volcanos-- buildout

6. Corona Cigar-- buildout

7. Bola Italian Eatery-- met with the owners last month-- buildout to begin in January

8. AMC 12-- buildout-- more than halfway done; walls up; etc... target is Valentine's Day.

thanks..good info. been wondering about Bola since it still has a dirt floor, was worried they dropped out, good to hear they're still in.

also dont forget that "Forty" clothing store on the corner thats comming.

[JRS1]

thanks..good info. been wondering about Bola since it still has a dirt floor, was worried they dropped out, good to hear they're still in.

also dont forget that "Forty" clothing store on the corner thats comming.

yeah, what's the deal with that store- Forty?

[neon9]

yeah, what's the deal with that store- Forty?

40 OZ? Must be 'urban' clothing.

[JRS1]

40 OZ? Must be 'urban' clothing.

honestly, though, if they take a risk on retailers, I think they should go with known mall stores that already have a huge customer base. it's safer and more stable of a tenant. I say that yet look at what happened at CC Market...

[bulldogger]

The sign says "40 VII" so that isn't 40.

[neon9]

The sign says "40 VII" so that isn't 40.

40 7?

That makes even less sense. But sounds a little classier.

[jack]

It is 47. The store is a start up and open in April. Hopefully. They are negotiating with another tenant and if they sign, there will only be one suite left.

[pip]

40-7 makes the most sense actually!! homage to life in the 407!

[Boomer136]

40-7 makes the most sense actually!! homage to life in the 407!

Feels like when Atlanta suburbs went 770 in the mid-90's leaving only inside the perimeter 404. It was far more fashionable to have a 404 number don't you know... Pip I think you smoked it out! (Desperately tried to find some sort of witty remark involving Great Expectations here, but alas...)

[neon9]

40-7 makes the most sense actually!! homage to life in the 407!

oh yeah...guess I should have picked up on that...

[bulldogger]

Smart, pip. I was searching the internet for a clothing store by that name and couldn't find anything.

[neon9]

I don't have time to link it, but did anyone see the article about the tenants sueing Kuhn for not paying his share of the condo fees, i.e. for the units he still owns?

It's in the Sentinel today.

Loudnes Dostrick (sp?) is representing the tenants.

[bulldogger]

Loudnes Dostrick (sp?) is representing the tenants.

Lowndes, Drosdick, Doster, Kantor & Reed