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The Plaza


Tim3167

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Wonder if a little recap of The Plaza melodrama, over just the last six months, might be appropriate here... :whistling:;)

[The weird formatting is a result of UBB not allowing more than three quotes per post.]

[name=Camillo Sitte' date='Sep 1 2007, 04:08 AM' post='850326] We don't have a movie theater, and likely won't soon Is it a surprise that these companies can see what is quite plain, that the recent condo/downtown boom was built on the false premise of a bunch of amateur speculators looking to get rich quick, that there really hasn't been and will not soon be a large up tick in the number of real people actually living downtown?

The Orlando metro area is indeed growing and getting a bit more sophisticated in terms of our shopping, dining, and living options but almost all of this change is happening outside of the downtown core.

[name=Camillo Sitte' date='Sep 1 2007, 01:48 PM' post='850416] Look, Kuhn and the city may be able to eventually cajole some theater chain into coming to downtown. I mean, throw enough money, perks, or incentives at a problem and short term solutions tend to appear

What's amazing to me is that there are still those boosters who, with all of the empirical evidence at their disposal, still refuse to see this recent condo boom as anything but the mostly hollow shell based on amateur speculation that it is. Rather than face reality they criticize the Sentinel for simply reporting the facts and for not joining them in their cognitive dissonance. I will say it again - a handful of owner occupied $400-500/SF condos cannot turn around an entire downtown core.

I still wouldn't hold out much hope for a high quality and diverse first-run downtown theater anytime soon but I personally would love to be proven wrong and if so will be the first one to admit it.

[name=Camillo Sitte' date='Oct 14 2007, 01:24 PM' post='873809] Which does nothing to explain the fact that roughly half of the space in the two towers is still vacant/un-sold and likely to stay that way for a long time to come.

[name=Camillo Sitte' date='Dec 7 2007, 07:02 PM' post='901653] [5a] For starters the City loaned Kuhne about $15 million out of the city's general fund [read: TAX DOLLARS] to build The Plaza parking garage, at sub-prime rates, to be paid back over 10 years.

If Kuhne's project goes Tango Uniform or severely underperforms then the City basically eats that loan because it was not secured with collateral.

Yes, the city would likely end up owning the garage after going through bankruptcy and receivership but what good is a large parking garage where there might not be any business?

[5b] The City gave Kuhne, again from the general fund, $3.5 in cash AS A GIFT, for "redeveloping a deteriorated block" [yeah, right, deteriorated]. This money was a pure gift and does not have to be paid back or converted.

[5c] The City is obligated to give any eventual theater operator $3.5 million IN CASH over 10-years. The only obligation the theater operator has is to stay in continuous operation in order to receive a $350,000 cash distribution each year.

If AMC [or anyone else] does eventually open a theater at The Plaza it aint because they think the market is a no-brainer - it is because the City is buying their risk - the City is subsidizing AMC's business.

[name=Camillo Sitte' date='Dec 7 2007, 09:30 PM' post='901730] Not once have I ever said or suggested that I want The Plaza to fail or that I was in any way against the concept of public/private urban redevelopment. I am however in favor of clear-headed fiscal responsibility when public money that is also needed in so many other areas [public education?] is at stake.

I am not saying that cities should not pursue redevelopment deals, even those using public money, they should. They should also be required to perform due diligence as to the realistic viability of the project being proposed.

IMHO Kuhne should have been required to have >50% of all condo, restaurant, and office space contracts signed and in place before the City handed over dollar one given that Kuhne himself has no track record with large-scale developments and has no personal assets with which to secure all of the loans/handouts.

[name=Camillo Sitte' date='Dec 8 2007, 12:17 AM' post='901816] That some eventual receiver will be obligated to pay some form of property tax isn't very reassuring. Neither does that account for unrealized business license revenue and sales tax on office rents and retail sales - not to mention the lost opportunity costs of the original $22 million.

I hope this project is eventually a success but it looks like the City could have done a better job with regards to its original due diligence obligations.

Again, I hope it all works out in the end.

[name=Camillo Sitte' date='Dec 10 2007, 06:52 PM' post='903113] What chance would anyone give a public referendum of passing that said, "We the City are going to use your tax dollars to give and loan [at sub-prime rates] $22 million to a private developer to build a private, for-profit office and condo high-rise. In exchange for the City's gravitas this private citizen promises to try and open a few new restaurants and maybe, possibly, someday, a movie theater as well."

I would guess that a thusly worded referendum would fail by about about 5:1.

[name=Camillo Sitte' date='Dec 10 2007, 10:31 PM' post='903222] I for one have never said nor suggested that this project is yet a failure, I was simply highlighting some very real problems as opposed to some here who believe it is a success just because it has added some volumetric density to the city core.

Lawsuit contends Plaza developer owes his share of maintenance fees. Jerry W. Jackson {sodEmoji.|} Sentinel Staff Writer December 14, 2007

[name=DowntownDarryl' date='Jan 3 2008, 08:22 PM' post='913064] Anyone else see the quote from Cameron Kuhn in the OBJ that AMC will be open by January 25th?

[name=FLKP' date='Jan 9 2008, 11:14 AM' post='915868] I heard their are 90 units still available at Solaire.

Anybody have better info ?

[name=neon9' date='Jan 24 2008, 02:00 PM' post='924227] A developer that has to use his house as collateral and it's now being foreclosed? Now neither he nor his spokesman is available for comment?

Seems a little shady. Had the RE market turned out differently I imagine he could have made it work, but with the current market conditions....if I had to bet I would short him.

[name=slapdash09' date='Jan 24 2008, 02:24 PM' post='924248] "Sentinel Exclusive"Cameron Kuhn, key downtown Orlando high-rise towers face foreclosure

Lenders have foreclosed on several properties owned by Orlando developer Cameron Kuhn, including his centerpiece tower project The Plaza, the largest redevelopment in downtown's history.

[name=JRS1' date='Jan 29 2008, 07:27 AM' post='926461] everything's going to be fine. that article is static. the reality is that things have already been done before that article was printed.

[name=codypet' date='Feb 5 2008, 11:30 PM' post='930513] WFTV is reporting that the Plaza may lose power by Thursday

http://www.wftv.com/video/15226011/index.htmlhttp://www.wftv.com/video/15226011/index.html

*****

Oh hell, I am sure everything will be just fine. No doubt six months from now all of the condos and office scape will be full and we will all be having a laugh while watching Hollywood's latest blockbuster at the new AMC, and as for the theater I really do hope that sucker opens sometime as I really love going to the movies. :good:

Edited by Camillo Sitte
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Just because the developer is having problems does not mean the project itself is a bust.

I don't recall saying the project was at this point a "bust" but to say that the developer is simply having "problems" is either naive or the understatement of the year:

-Kuhn is facing least two lawsuits from different owner/occupant groups in regards to The Plaza

-Kuhn is also being sued by groups regarding two of his other projects in Orlando

-The bank has foreclosed on The Plaza as well as Kuhn's house

-Kuhn has defaulted on paying back the $15 million loaned to him by the city for building the parking garage

-1/3 of the condo units in The Plaza are still owned by Kuhn and [the bank?]

-Another 1/3 are owned by non-occupant "investors" [read: amateur speculators, many of whom are likely to default]

-Something like 1/2 the office condo space is still unsold

-Still no theater

-OUC today threatens to turn off the lights to The Plaza unless they get their money.

Oh, and for those who might say that AMC is building the theater and it will open soon

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The $14 million loan was already payed back. The interest rate was LIBOR plus a few basis points. And the $3.5 was a grant. So the City is only out the $3.5. Even if the building is foreclosed, the $3.5 will be generated by property tazes. The units that are sold will generate enough to pay that back over a very short amount of time.

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Sounds like Kuhn needs to sell some condos at February 2008 market value and not try selling at February 2006 market value. ;)

Funny you should say that-although I don't think it's really Kuhn's problem anymore...not the residential portion anyway.

Developer to try luck at auctioning off condos

Gollinger said that Wood Partners "made a deliberate business decision" to auction off the larger of its remaining residential units -- 42 of the 72 -- rather than take another year or two to sell them one or two at a time amid the continuing housing slump.

The units in the auction will be 800 square feet or larger. Smaller units will continue to be sold on the open market.

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That auction will help Wood Partners in unloading the properties, but it does almost nothing for the building and downtown. They are still looking at out of town investors to buy. This problem wouldn't happen if owners were mandated to be tenants. The prices wouldn't have skyrocketed on false demand.

They are looking at $170,000 to start the bidding. Isn't that what the prices were a few years ago when they started presales? They should stop the BS about an auction and just try selling them to owner/tenants at that price. They would sell just fine and the building would have actual residents, which would help spur all the other businesses that are making a go of downtown.

If these units sell at the auction, I am afraid that the building will still look very empty.

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That auction will help Wood Partners in unloading the properties, but it does almost nothing for the building and downtown. They are still looking at out of town investors to buy. This problem wouldn't happen if owners were mandated to be tenants. The prices wouldn't have skyrocketed on false demand.

They are looking at $170,000 to start the bidding. Isn't that what the prices were a few years ago when they started presales? They should stop the BS about an auction and just try selling them to owner/tenants at that price. They would sell just fine and the building would have actual residents, which would help spur all the other businesses that are making a go of downtown.

If these units sell at the auction, I am afraid that the building will still look very empty.

The condo docs restrict the number of units that can be rented. That number has been reached and anyone else that wants to rent gets put on a waiting list. I put my name on that list when I closed last April. I got called in Dec saying that I can rent my unit, but, since I already moved in, have a corner unit with a great view of lake eola, and the delay on my unit in 55W, I opted out and requested that I be put back on the bottom of the list. So, I dont think people will buy with the intent to rent.

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The $14 million loan was already payed back. The interest rate was LIBOR plus a few basis points. And the $3.5 was a grant. So the City is only out the $3.5. Even if the building is foreclosed, the $3.5 will be generated by property tazes. The units that are sold will generate enough to pay that back over a very short amount of time.

Hmm...

Not according to the Sentinel - unless Kuhn paid it back this week.

"A foreclosure brought by an investment bank against Kuhn's main project, The Plaza, was sparked by the developer's failure to repay a $14.8 million loan on the complex's parking garage."

"Wood Partners, the Atlanta company that built one of three towers in the $140 million Plaza project on Orange between Church and Pine streets, said its residential tower, The Solaire, is unaffected by the parking-garage foreclosure." Orlando Sentinel January 25, 2008

Link to Article Orlando Sentinel

Woops, check that

Edited by Camillo Sitte
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all I know is that the power is still on and will stay on. OUC took issue b/c of the surety bond. like they didn't already receive a half dozen or so calls from the power brokers before the press got hold of the non-story. why do we put so much clout in what the media says anyway? that news report about Kuhn refusing to meet with the reporter the day before yesterday on the power issue was such BS... the guy was out of town.

the cinema-- might have already been sold. the garage-- same thing. all these issues about failure and uncertainty and all this BS... all I can say is:

-Bento Cafe opened on Wednesday;

-Corona is maybe a week from opening;

-Cool Blue Burrito- very close...

-Cold Stone- been close...

-Bola Italian Eatery-- a month and a half away...

_______________

as for Wood Partners, we'll see what they do.

Edited by JRS1
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all I know is that the power is still on and will stay on. OUC took issue b/c of the surety bond. like they didn't already receive a half dozen or so calls from the power brokers before the press got hold of the non-story. why do we put so much clout in what the media says anyway? that news report about Kuhn refusing to meet with the reporter the day before yesterday on the power issue was such BS... the guy was out of town.

the cinema-- might have already been sold. the garage-- same thing. all these issues about failure and uncertainty and all this BS... all I can say is:

-Bento Cafe opened on Wednesday;

-Corona is maybe a week from opening;

-Cool Blue Burrito- very close...

-Cold Stone- been close...

-Bola Italian Eatery-- a month and a half away...

_______________

Whoa, now. You're saying one thing, OUC is saying another:

Sheridan Becht, a spokesman for Orlando Utilities Commission, said Wednesday that payments on The Plaza's electricity bill are overdue, which could result in a cutoff of power to some parts of the office towers, though not to the individually occupied office condos, which have separate meters.

Becht said $40,000 of the $283,159 overdue bill was paid Tuesday, and The Plaza has pledged to pay another $115,000 by 5 p.m. today.

"It's progress. So we're hopeful," Becht said.

Seems Kuhn was in town yesterday (I don't personally know, but that is what it sounded like) but refused to speak to the media. He did release a nice little statement about rising to meet new challenges.

Seems like Corona and Cold Stone Creamery have been 'almost open' for months now.

Edited by neon9
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Whoa, now. You're saying one thing, OUC is saying another:

Seems Kuhn was in town yesterday (I don't personally know, but that is what it sounded like) but refused to speak to the media. He did release a nice little statement about rising to meet new challenges.

Seems like Corona and Cold Stone Creamery have been 'almost open' for months now.

Kuhn-- I was at a meeting yesterday late morning when he text messaged a colleague in my presence stating that he was still in transit, en route to Orlando.

Cold Stone & Corona-- Cold Stone got held up b/c they had to re-dig out the plumbing b/c of some code issue while the rest of the place was pretty much done for a couple of months. Corona has been going thru consistent buildout for the past 2-3 mos. now with zero slowdown and will probably open next week once the bar gets surfaced with glass/drywall panels.

As for OUC: where's the controversy? yeah, I read the OUC article; no need to point out what they said- again. They 'could' cut the power... could, shmould... I 'could' catch discintary if I drink out of the sewer in front of city hall; I 'could' catch the mother ship if I go to San Diego and drink that funny punch that Kevorkian-looking guy brewed; I 'could' sing like Gene Simmons if I stay at a Holiday Inn Express, but it doesn't mean that it's gonna happen. Like OUC is going to shut the power off in the building where the architect of their new building has their main offices. Like they are going to shut the power off period in the "downtown jewel" of this development cycle and embarass the City. OUC needs to check themselves...

Edited by JRS1
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As Attorney General John Mitchell (in)famously said, "Watch what we DO, not what we say." OUC has the spokeperson out front looking ever vigilant while meanwhile the power is still on. Let's not forget Buddy Dyer is on the OUC board. Let's not forget OUC has bailed Buddy out before - this is classic Orlando politics going on before our very eyes.

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Meanwhile, let me put in a word for Cameron Kuhn. Unlike Lou or developers like Steve Walsh who seemed to take from the local community without ever giving, I think it important to point out that it's all but impossible to drive around downtown Orlando without seeing the impressive results of Cameron's efforts on just about every block. Long before the condo craze, he was buying and renovating some of Orlando's most historic buildings when we had reached a nadir of progress in the core under Glenda. Even now, if nothing else happens at Church Street, Cheyenne is back and I think it safe to say that would not have happened without Kuhn.

It is the nature of the beast with developers, it seems, to bite off more than they can chew. Maybe he will end up handling this badly, but I'm willing to cut Cameron Kuhn some slack based on what he has already done for the betterment of downtown.

In case you're wondering, I don't work or profit in any way from Kuhn's properties. I'm just an Orlando native and downtown resident who, on balance, believes Cameron has done a lot more good than harm in the area.

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Hmm...

Not according to the Sentinel - unless Kuhn paid it back this week.

"A foreclosure brought by an investment bank against Kuhn's main project, The Plaza, was sparked by the developer's failure to repay a $14.8 million loan on the complex's parking garage."

"Wood Partners, the Atlanta company that built one of three towers in the $140 million Plaza project on Orange between Church and Pine streets, said its residential tower, The Solaire, is unaffected by the parking-garage foreclosure." Orlando Sentinel January 25, 2008

Link to Article Orlando Sentinel

Woops, check that unless he paid it back yesterday:

"The $140 million project, undertaken by developer Cameron Kuhn, includes two office-condominium towers on Orange Avenue that were recently thrust into foreclosure because of a $14 million loan that Kuhn took out for work on the towers' parking garage." Orlando Sentinel Feburary 7, 2008

Link to Article Orlando Sentinel

The loan was paid back in November of 2006. It was during the MS fundraiser on the roof of the garage. The loan in default now is from a private company.

It does not really matter the building is in bancruptcy. It still is standing and is better then what was there. Whomever takes it over will do a better job I am sure.

I would be shocked if OUC turns off the power. They rarely do. In fact, I can think of another building (not any of Cameron's) that have faced a similar problem. But OUC is working with them. Because they are quasi-government, they are more lenient. Besides, it would be unsafe to ever to turn off the elevators.

Edited by jack
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Silly me. I thought owing a quarter million dollars in overdue utility bills when you're already near bankruptcy might be controversial. I thought so when they discovered the bills at Church Street Station had not been paid for months by Lou Pearlman.

I guess this is different? :dontknow:

Does anyone know what these big buildings pay for power? Using my roughly 0.09 cents per KWH my calculator goes exponential (i.e. that's a lot of juice). How many months does that represent?

Edited by neon9
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The loan was paid back in November of 2006. It was during the MS fundraiser on the roof of the garage. The loan in default now is from a private company.

It does not really matter the building is in bancruptcy. It still is standing and is better then what was there. Whomever takes it over will do a better job I am sure.

I would be shocked if OUC turns off the power. They rarely do. In fact, I can think of another building (not any of Cameron's) that have faced a similar problem. But OUC is working with them. Because they are quasi-government, they are more lenient. Besides, it would be unsafe to ever to turn off the elevators.

I think the Metropolitan is dealing with the same thing about the electric bill. I thought I saw that in the news about 2 weeks ago.

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^^

I don't know, when I think of 'controversial' issues in downtown orlando affairs, I think of issues like whether they oust the homeless with new legislation, whether they approve certain taxes to pay for events centers, whether they demolish the Jaymont block in the midnight hour, etc... not whether some glory hound reporters want to run a story on the possibility of the power co. considering cutting the power off in some of the hallways of a new building downtown. if they were so worried about it, they would've turned off the exterior spotlights a long time ago. like I said, it's a non-story that somehow got airtime b/c there's nothing else going on to write about downtown.

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^^

I don't know, when I think of 'controversial' issues in downtown orlando affairs, I think of issues like whether they oust the homeless with new legislation, whether they approve certain taxes to pay for events centers, whether they demolish the Jaymont block in the midnight hour, etc... not whether some glory hound reporters want to run a story on the possibility of the power co. considering cutting the power off in some of the hallways of a new building downtown. if they were so worried about it, they would've turned off the exterior spotlights a long time ago. like I said, it's a non-story that somehow got airtime b/c there's nothing else going on to write about downtown.

Yeah when the Sentinel reported on Kuhn's apparent purchase of a 500k piece of jewlery for his wife I thought that was a little gossipy. Interesting, but more like something that belongs in People.

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