The Plaza

[Camillo Sitte]

comparing Orlando to Des Moines, Iowa is like comparing Brisbane to Hobart.

First, I would have thought that my saying, "hold on there sports fans" would have been an indication of a certain amount of playful hyperbole. Next time I will more carefully consider my audience.

Second, who compared Orlando to Des Moines?

Someone mentioned that the Knoxville area had what they termed a population of "only" some 400,000.

I suggested that, in the U.S., they look at an unsuspecting place like Des Moines to see just how dense, urban, and happening 400,000 people can be.

DT Orlando might be in the process of growing up but that doesn't mean it's on life support. You can ask any resturant owner downtown how buisness is doing compared to five years ago and you'll find the answer. I work in the downtown area and you'd be suprised how many people from Norway, Sweden, Jamaica, Iceland, Aruba ect find their way downtown and how much they say they love it here.

Hold on there sports fans, I never said nor suggested that downtown Orlando wasn't growing, or wasn't a good place to relax and have a beer, or wasn't changing, mostly for the better.

What I did say, or write, was to express my opinions that this most recent boom will turn out to be more fluff than substance. That while it may be the start of what Orlando will begin to look like 20 years from now, a few high-priced condos [with mostly absentee landlords?] aren't going to make downtown Orlando a modern urban Xanadu.

I remember when there was a porn theater and an adult bookshop on Pine right across the street from First Baptist Church so I don't need anyone to tell me that downtown Orlando is changing for the better.

I also remember the "boom" of the 80's which ended up giving downtown Orlando a couple of mid-rise office towers and not much more.

What does it matter that we can point to things like Downtown Disney and CityWalk and identify them as much of the reason for the contraction of downtown in the 90's. The reality that it happened is more important to where we are today than is understanding exactly why after the fact. The time to respond to Disney and Universal threat directly was 10 years ago.

As I said, there are positive signs as well. The opening of the Publix has a great deal of potential for downtown for example and the Orlando metro area is certainly changing at a much faster, much more substantive pace

However, most of the armchair, amateur, wishing-it-were-so, pie-in-the-sky, non-reality based speculation regarding downtown is just hyperbolic nonsense.

I understand that there is no law against engaging is that type of rhetorical masturbation but I chose to offer a differing point of view. It makes no matter to me if my ideas are popular here or not.

Sure we are no New York or Chicago but Des Moines and Knoxville are no Orlando.

O.K. [shrug][/shrug]

[Camillo Sitte]

I can't help but picture this guy when reading Camillo's increasingly bombastic arguments.

"I am the Architect. I created the Matrix. I have been waiting for you. You have many questions and although the process has altered your consciousness you remain irrevocably human, ergo some of my answers you will understand and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question maybe the most pertinent you may or may not realize it is also the most irrelevant."

How is your posting this here any different than me just calling you an unbearable asshole?

Does that kind of thing add anything of value to the discussion?

Why would you worry about my posting style?

I still don

[Camillo Sitte]

Camillo

According to City-Data.com the following statistics disprove your arguments for both education and income:

Orlando

H.S. 82.2%

Bachelors or higher 28.2%

2005 Median HH Income: $36,699

Knoxville

H.S. 78.4%

Bachelors or higher 24.6%

2005 Median HH Income $30,473

I have also reviewed the U.S. Census reports and they coincide with these statistics.

"City-Data.com" Is that anything like FoxNews - bada-bing! [just kidding]

What they hey, let's look at the 2000 U.S. Census numbers.

They show Knox County with 74.6% high school, 23.9% bachelos degree, and a median income of $35,408. For Orange County the numbers are 78.8% high school, 21.2% bachelors, and a median income of $36,979

Hmm, the numbers appear to be within any reasonable MOE but Knox County appears to have more residents with a bachelors or higher degree. Interesting.

It does not surprise me that more rural, outlying county-wide areas of Tennessee pulling in demographically with the city of Knoxville would have similar statistics to Orange County.

Guess what, Orlando [city, county, metro, whatever] might have had higher education and income levels than does Knoxville, I didn't know the numbers until checking just now and I said so. In that case I would be wrong. I have no problems admitting when I am wrong, I have never set myself up as being infallible, I make mistakes all the time.

But my argument doesn't succeed or fail based on your spending Sunday on The Google desperately trying to find some outlying statistic about traffic speeds in Manhattan. I am sitting at work trying to size a beam to fit a particular design parameter so I am looking for any distraction I can get.

You seem to me to be trying to "prove" that Orlando is "better" than Knoxville when I never suggested that Knoxville was "better" than Orlando.

Aside from that being a childish pursuit it is also impossible to "prove" with your "facts" one way or the other. My bullet points about Knoxville were simply to show that Knoxville has a lot more going for it than many would suspect, particularly in comparison to downtown Orlando.

Your posting of that average speed statistic proves my point: you have no clue what you are talking about. The things I am talking about are not "my" ideas but rather the product of and based on the canon of the last fifty years of urban planning in the U.S.

If you have a problem with one-way streets vs. two-way streets and how each functions then take it up with Jane Jacobs, Oscar Newman, Ted Relph, Ian McCarg, Kevin Lynch, William Whyte, et al.

Edited September 2, 2007 by Camillo Sitte

[bulldogger]

Also reminds me of this guy from Good Will Hunting...

[Camillo Sitte]

listening to camillo, you'd think knoxville is an urban utopia and orlando is peoria w/ roller coasters. Have you actually been to the downtowns of similar sized metros? I'm pretty sure all of us have, and I can honestly say orlando already has a vibrant core, and it's only going to get better. Did you forget Orlando has Thornton Park, as well as other very well maintained neighborhoods surrounding downtown (something most downtowns lack)? Lake Eola? A thriving urban park smack dab in the middle of the city that is always packed with pedestrians? A nightlife that is so popular they have to close down the streets occaisonally to handle the foot traffic? Plenty of dining for nearly any budget (Hue, Kress, Dexters, Fi Fis, tons of smaller joints)? Have you noticed that most downtowns in other cities aren't nearly as well kept as Orlando's manicured trees and decorative lighting? Just walking around downtown orlando, it feels more pedestrian friendly & livable than ANY OTHER DOWNTOWN IN FLORIDA, Miami included.

Now, all of this exists in downtown orlando without a critical mass of permanent residents, and a lack of general amenities. Look at what's coming online in just the next 5 years... a world class PAC, a new events center completely surrounded by retail, church street revitalization, creative village, commuter rail, not to mention the condo's that are already completed or near completion that WILL eventually fill with residents. There are plenty of major cities that would only dream to have the growth that downtown orlando is experiencing.

You are so full of it to think it will take 10-20 years for orlando to catch up to friggin KNOXVILLE, when it's already worlds ahead of that stagnant city that half the US probably wouldn't even recognize.

Your problem, camillo, is that you're basing the success (or lackthereof) of downtown orlando on the lackluster reception of the recent condo boom. It doesn't take an expert economist to undestand that thousands $500 sq/ft 1-2 bedroom condos aren't going to fill up overnight. Especially w/ orlando's low wage economy. Fret not, the market will correct itself and as orlando continues to gentrify and be a good place to do business (#1 small biz market in the country?), things will only get better. We're just now beginning to see these condo's come to completion, and with the real estate market in the shape it's in right now, of course people will be hesitant to buy (nobody wants to see their investment lose 50% of its value in less than 6 months).

Give downtown orlando 5 years, and I can honestly say it will be the envy of all the other cities in Florida... and in camillo's eyes, we might even become knoxville status.

I won't address this point-by-point because I don't have the time or energy right now but everything you just proffered as proof of Orlando's vibrancy can be claimed by about 50 other cities in the U.S.

As for the PAC, I really hope it happens as it would be great for Orlando but "world class"? Nope.

Barton Myers is a friend and former professor and I have seen and discussed the plans with him. As is often the case the reality is that the dollar/sf available for the project is going to cause a lot of cutbacks and shortcuts, compromising its overall quality.

Look at the PACs in smaller cities like San Sebastian and Oslo. The OPAC can't touch those facilities and San Sebastian for example aint exactly Paris.

This is what I mean when I refer to overly hyperbolic boosterism. Why do you have assert that Orlando's PAC will be "world class". I very much want the OPAC to happen but I can deal with the fact that it will be only a so-so facility but in most respects so-so is a big step up for Orlando. In a city like Orlando I must say I would rather have a so-so PAC than no PAC at all.

When you say that you "believe" that in five years Orlando will have a more vibrant/happening downtown than Miami/Miami Beach, all I can say is wow - what color is the sky on your planet. Aint gonna happen. Not in 5 years, not in 20. Orlando just doesn

Edited September 3, 2007 by Camillo Sitte

[Camillo Sitte]

Also reminds me of this guy from Good Will Hunting...

Yes, I do often feel here like the Matt Damon character having to school posers.

Do you have anything to add to the discussion?

Nope, didn't think so - how do you like them apples?

[seriously man, you didn't see that coming?]

Edited September 2, 2007 by Camillo Sitte

[RedStar25]

Aside from that being a childish pursuit it is also impossible to "prove" with your "facts" one way or the other. My bullet points about Knoxville were simply to show that Knoxville has a lot more going for it than many would suspect, particularly in comparison to downtown Orlando.

Well I can understand wanting people to see what the underdog has going for it. But in your original post about what downtown Knoxville has going for it, you laundry listed an entire list of false facts.

And no I did not spend all day looking your bullet points up... I live in Knoxville... I know whats really going on.

You call it childish to know the difference between fact and fiction. What do you call stating assumptions as fact?

And as for the personal "attacks" you started with the childish mud slinging. I only stated I thought you were clueless on this particular point.

[RedStar25]

As for the PAC, I really hope it happens as it would be great for Orlando but "world class"? Nope.

Look at the PACs in smaller cities like San Sebastian, Oslo, and Cardiff. The OPAC can't touch those facilities and San Sebastian for example aint exactly Paris.

How can you even say this? The damn thing isnt even built yet. Do you have a crystal ball or a finished set of plans?

[Hisma]

When you say that you "believe" that in five years Orlando will have a more vibrant/happening downtown than Miami/Miami Beach, all I can say is wow - what color is the sky on your planet. Aint gonna happen. Not in 5 years, not in 20. Orlando just doesn

[Camillo Sitte]

Well I can understand wanting people to see what the underdog has going for it. But in your original post about what downtown Knoxville has going for it, you laundry listed an entire list of false facts.

And no I did not spend all day looking your bullet points up... I live in Knoxville... I know whats really going on.

You call it childish to know the difference between fact and fiction. What do you call stating assumptions as fact?

And as for the personal "attacks" you started with the childish mud slinging. I only stated I thought you were clueless on this particular point.

You "know" what is "really going on"

OK.

Just what facts did you disprove? That the Knoxville Zoo is two or three miles outside the core? Fine, but then that means that both the Florida Hospital and ORMC campus are outside of downtown Orlando and I think that notion might upset some of your compatriots here.

The U.S. Census Bureau says that Knox County has more residents than Orange County with a bachelors or higher college degree. That median Orange income is $1500/year higher doesn't disprove my thesis, nor does the fact that one or two of the corporations I mentioned might be located outside of the central city core.

Is the TVA still downtown? Is UT? What is that, about 10-15,000 employees within just two downtown institutions.

Minor league sports in Knoxville? Well, I suppose that the Noise, the Ice Bears, the Smokies, and the Knoxville Ruggers could have all gone out of business or moved in the last year or so but that would be a terrible series of blows for Knoxville.

Interstates? Well, if you include spurs there is I-75, I-275, I-40, I-140, and I-640 and then add U.S. Highways 35, 11, and 25.

As for your opinions that the fort, and the warehouse and historic districts are no big deal, and your opinion on the quality of dining in downtown Knoxville well, they are just that - your opinions, not fact.

Look, I might have a statistic or two wrong, or something might have changed in Knoxville in the last year or two but that does nothing to disprove my argument which is simply that many smaller cities like Knoxville have much more going on and are much closer to downtown Orlando than some here would like to admit.

Also, please show me where I first started to "sling mud" before someone made a personal comment about me.

Edited September 2, 2007 by Camillo Sitte

[MaXxlife]

As for the PAC, I really hope it happens as it would be great for Orlando but "world class"? Nope.

Look at the PACs in smaller cities like San Sebastian, Oslo, and Cardiff. The OPAC can't touch those facilities and San Sebastian for example aint exactly Paris.

Do any other performing arts facilities in the U.S. besides the The Los Angeles Music Center have the financial and creative backing of one of if not the largest entertainment bohemiths in the entertaining world? Nope..

Disney has been a big contributor to this community and will be a major contributor to it's PAC.

If what they have done in LA lends itself to what may be in store for Orlando..be prepared change your tune

Walt Disney Concert Hall

Edited September 2, 2007 by MaXxlife

[Camillo Sitte]

only thing I will say to your retort it this, have you been to downtown Miami? It lacks nightlife, parks (unless you consider bayside part of downtown, which I dont), plus it's PAC, ballparks, arena, etc are all located outside downtown. Also, the neighborhoods surrounding downtown aren't exactly anything desirable. Orlando has a much better existing canvas for forming a livable, workable downtown than Miami. This is my opinion, but anyone who has been to downtown Miami knows it's not anything to write home about. Yes they are having a huge condo boom (which their condo glut is much more serious than orlando's), but DOWNTOWN miami still has a lot of work to do before it becomes a true live/work/play environment.

And you speak of me putting words in your mouth, when did I say anything about Miami Beach? I'm speaking strictly of downtowns here. Miami Beach is on a whole other planet than anywhere else in Florida, it's the only part of Florida where you can pretty much survive w/o owning a car. Another reason why downtown Miami is going to continue to have growing pains... why settle for downtown when you can go across the bay and get a real urban experience in Miami Beach?

Oy!

You said that Orlando has a more pedestrian friendly and livable downtown than any other city in Florida.

Miami Beach is a city of nearly 100,000, located in the state of Florida.

Downtown Miami Beach, which is roughly Collins and Ocean to Alton/907 and bounded by 5th and, oh, say 20th is downtown Miami Beach.

Once again, I feel quite confident in my opinions as regards comparing downtown Miami Beach to downtown Orlando. There are for example and figuratively speaking, more restaurants in one square block in Miami Beach than in all of downtown Orlando and surely you aren't going to compare Lake Eola to the beach and the Pacific Ocean.

Q.E.D.

Edited September 3, 2007 by Camillo Sitte

[Hisma]

Oy!

You said that Orlando has a more pedestrian friendly and livable downtown than any other city in Florida.

Miami Beach is a city of nearly 100,000, located in the state of Florida.

Downtown Miami Beach, which is roughly Collins and Ocean to Alton/907 and bounded by 5th and, oh, say 20th is downtown Miami Beach.

Once again, I feel quite confident in my opinions as regards comparing downtown Miami Beach to downtown Orlando. There are for example and figuratively speaking, more restaurants in one square block in Miami Beach than in all of downtown Orlando and suely you aren't going to compare Lake Eola to the beach and the Pacific Ocean.

Q.E.D.

umm... apparently you didn't read my post.

[Camillo Sitte]

Do any other performing arts facilities in the U.S. besides the The Los Angeles Music Center have the financial and creative backing of one of if not the largest entertainment bohemiths in the entertaining world? Nope..

Disney has been a big contributor to this community and will be a major contributor to it's PAC.

If what they have done in LA lends itself to what may be in store for Orlando..be prepared change your tune

Walt Disney Concert Hall

The parade of ignorance continues. My apologies but there it is, ignorance is most accurate word.

Interesting that you choose Frank Gehry, another former professor and mentor.

Look, it was the Disney family through Lillian Disney that made the initial large contribution for Disney Hall, not the Disney corporation, the Disney family has no connection or loyalty to Orlando, but that contribution went to pay for Gerhy's design services and to build the parking garage.

After Lillian Disney's gift the project stalled for about 10 years because of cost overruns and difficulties in materials manufacturing. The curved surfaces were originally going to be curved limestone but no one could figure out how to cost-effectively manufacture the stone panels.

During the 10-year stop in work on Disney Hall Gehry adopted Dassault's CATIA aviation design software and adapted it to be used in Architecture to precisely form and cut titanium, as the software was intended to do for aircraft design.

Still, the Disney Hall was dead. It wasn't until Eli Broad more than doubled Lillian Disney's initial contribution [she was dead by now anyway] that the project started again.

Neither the Disney family nor Eli Broad are going to drop $300 million on Orlando's PAC or anything else in Orlando for that matter.

The truth is that the Disney Corporation has been a piss-poor community partner. Orlando was lucky to get the cost of refurbing the Lake Eola amphitheater out of them. Don't go having any wet dreams about their contributions to the OPAC.

Edited September 2, 2007 by Camillo Sitte

[MaXxlife]

The parade of ignorance continues. My apologies but there it is, ignorance is most accurate word.

Interesting that you choose Frank Gehry, another former professor and mentor.

Look, it was the Disney family through Lillian Disney that made the initial large contribution for Disney Hall, not the Disney corporation, the Disney family has no connection or loyalty to Orlando, but that contribution went to pay for Gerhy's design services and to build the parking garage.

After Lillian Disney's gift the project stalled for about 10 years because of cost overruns and difficulties in materials manufacturing. The curved surfaces were originally going to be curved limestone but no one could figure out how to cost-effectively manufacture the stone panels.

During the 10-year stop in work on Disney Hall Gehry adopted Dassault's CATIA aviation design software and adapted it to be used in Architecture to precisely form and cut titanium, as the software was intended to do for aircraft design.

Still, the Disney Hall was dead. It wasn't until Eli Broad more than doubled Lillian Disney's initial contribution [she was dead by now anyway] that the project started again.

Neither the Disney family nor Eli Broad are going to drop $300 million on Orlando's PAC or anything else in Orlando for that matter.

The truth is that the Disney Corporation has been a piss-poor community partner. Orlando was lucky to get the cost of refurbing the Lake Eola amphitheater out of them. Don't go having any wet dreams about their contributions to the OPAC.

Disney has given $12 million towards the OPAC and will have a performance hall named in their honor. They also sit on the board and will contribute creatively to it. No ignorance here my friend, just have seen for myself how Disney has been upping their community involvement in recent history.

Edited September 2, 2007 by MaXxlife

[RedStar25]

I have already rebuffed all of your factoids once. I do not need to prove I can do it again.

oh ok one last time...

I-140 is in oak ridge....

[Camillo Sitte]

How can you even say this? The damn thing isnt even built yet. Do you have a crystal ball or a finished set of plans?

As I said, the Architect hired to design the OPAC is a friend and former professor.

There are no "finished set of plans" but yes, I have seen what plans do exist at this point.

The reason I can "say this" is part-n-parcel of what I have been saying: 20 years of education and experience not just

Edited September 2, 2007 by Camillo Sitte

[Camillo Sitte]

I have already rebuffed all of your factoids once. I do not need to prove I can do it again.

oh ok one last time...

No you haven't. And just because you say so doesn't make it so.

See my last response to your "refutation" of facts.

By the way, "rebuff" means to reject bluntly, such as coldly turning someone down for a date.

I believe you meant to write, "refute" or "refuted" which means to prove or have proven false.

I-140 is in oak ridge....

Really?

That's right, you're the guy who just "knows stuff"

Looks to me like you need to go home more often.

Wait, let me guess: I-140 is 5 miles from the UT stadium therefore it is technically, according to you,

Edited September 2, 2007 by Camillo Sitte

[Julez]

only thing I will say to your retort it this, have you been to downtown Miami? It lacks nightlife, parks (unless you consider bayside part of downtown, which I dont), plus it's PAC, ballparks, arena, etc are all located outside downtown. Also, the neighborhoods surrounding downtown aren't exactly anything desirable. Orlando has a much better existing canvas for forming a livable, workable downtown than Miami. This is my opinion, but anyone who has been to downtown Miami knows it's not anything to write home about. Yes they are having a huge condo boom (which their condo glut is much more serious than orlando's), but DOWNTOWN miami still has a lot of work to do before it becomes a true live/work/play environment.

And you speak of me putting words in your mouth, when did I say anything about Miami Beach? I'm speaking strictly of downtowns here. Miami Beach is on a whole other planet than anywhere else in Florida, it's the only part of Florida where you can pretty much survive w/o owning a car. Another reason why downtown Miami is going to continue to have growing pains... why settle for downtown when you can go across the bay and get a real urban experience in Miami Beach?

Ok, Downtown Miami in no way lacks Nightlife, after South Beach Downtown has the next biggest nightlife in Miami with huge clubs like Space and Nocturnal that nothing in Olando can compare to, This part of the CBD also closes streets off for pedestrian traffic.

And why would you not consider Bayside downtown!?!?

Its the biggest attraction to Downtown and including the fact that IT IS IN DOWNTOWN, Aside from Bayside there is Bayfront Park which is a nice big urban park, and then theirs Bicentinial Park which right now is a blank canvas that in a couple of years is going to be a huge urban Museum Park.

And when did the PAc and the Arena leave Downtown? Last time I looked out my window both the Carnival Center and The American Airlines Arena are all there and doing very well, not to mention that the Marlins are getting pretty close to building their Ballpark in Downtown with the recent visit of the MLB to Miami.

And yes to the east the neighborhoods are anything but desirable bit look what it has to the south and north, two huge and growing dense urban neighborhoods. And as someone that has been living in Downtown Miami for a while now I can tell you that the change and what is going to happen is very remarkable. The street scene has already improved considerably in the last year, the real issue facing downtown is its asthetics like its sidewalks and aging building but like I said its all changing and its already evident today with the city cleaning up the streets, fixing up old building and widening up the sidewalks and adding more canopy.

And I agree Miami Beach is great but I personally would not want to live there its still a beach enviorment that I would only want to visit not live, Downtown Miami has alot going for it and you seem to be the only one to think its having growing pains.

And people seem to paint Downtown Orlando as something its not, during the day its pedestrian traffic is mediaocore and quite pathetic, during the weekends its dead, and on during the night two or three streets have heavy night life that again is not the best. Hopefully the new condos and building help it out but seriously. Better nightlife in Florida can be found here in Miami and even Ft. Lauderdale has better nightlife. Pedestrian traffic and lively neighborhood, again Ft. Lauderdale, Miami and even Sarasota and Jacksonville. Alot of people on this board seem to be way too biased with Orlando, Im a native Orlandaon but you guys have to face reality.

[spenser1058]

To me, I think most of us are a little amazed because we are seeing a comparison of apples to oranges. Knoxville has not been, and does not apear to now be, "America's Next Great City" (to borrow Tampa's term). It's all about growth. For as long as anyone I know can remember, the competition in TN was between Memphis and Nashville - Nashville won, btw <g>. Knoxville has been Tennessee's 3rd city for a very long time, and there are no signs of that changing.

Orlando, on the other hand, is all about the future. While the population of Knox County grew by 25K from 2000-2005, Orange County grew by almost 100K. The median household, which differed by $1500 in 2000, had grown to a disparity of $5100 in favor of Orange by 2005. In planning terms, 5 years is the blink of an eye, so the acceleration by Orange County in that short period is all the more amazing.

Comparing highway routes between a city in Tennessee , bordered by 8 other states, and Florida, a peninsula surrounded by water, also makes no sense. Within 1 hour of Orlando, for example, we have a port (we may not think of Brevard as part of the region but we are not that much further from our port than many other cities - it's less than an hour away from downtown). We also have access to space, something most other places can only dream of. Will that make a difference in the future? Who knows- if NASA is serious about going to the moon at last and then Mars, that might make quite a difference.

Whereas probably no one knows much about Knoxville outside the U.S., and probably not many outside the SEC <g>, Orlando is an international brand. One of the reasons Orlando real estate was so affected by the bubble was because international investors like what they see here.

What does that have to do with downtown? Like it or not, it is the center of the region, historically, politically, culturally and geographically. Joel Kotkin, who has not drunk the Kool-Aid about America going headlong back to the cities, predicts that an urban core can expect to attract no more than 15% of the population on average. If you count downtown as the area between Florida Hospital and ORMC, and given that the density along I4 (it is, contrary to popular belief, not so different than many corridors in the northeast - it's why rail can in fact work here and if you saw the last meeting on commuter rail there was not a dissenting opinion on creating further density from any of the counties along the rail), then downtown can probably meet that threshold in the future.

Downtown had reached an employment base of 60K by 2005- certainly that may be in flux but is more than enough to provide the catalyst for further growth. If, like in Tampa, all those folks exited downtown every night, that would be a problem. Fortunately, there is already a quality of life in the neighborhoods surrounding downtown to keep the higher income folks in the area (Lake Davis, Lake Cherokee, Lake Ivanhoe, College Park, Eola Heights, etc.). That's before we see what happens with the condos. Ironically, if all the condos being built were to fail, it would just mean the units would end up being rented at lower rates as the units go through the workout phase, and we'd have our much-needed affordable housing. Although it would be bad for the investors and developers and specualtors who originally built them, it bodes well for downtown as a neighborhood and for the vibrant quality of young singles who could supposedly provide the "creative edge" Richard Florida says is so vital.

I have not always agreed with Buddy Dyer, but he has shown a willingness to push the envelope to get things moving downtown. I just read an article in The New Republic by Sarah Williams Goldhagen, who notes that the only daring infrastructure gains in the US tend to happen when someone like a Michael Bloomberg, a Mayor Daley, or yes, even the much-hated Robert Moses push things forward. Buddy has shown a willingness to do that and has managed to keep Rich Crotty running alongside to keep up. Rich will be moving on soon, but it looks like we have several more years for Buddy to push his downtown agenda.

So, as someone who knew downtown Orlando when it was the vibrant center of the region in the early 60s and watched it to decline to "a corner with a tattoo parlor, two wig shops and a burnt out hotel in 1980" (Mayor Bill Frederick), and as someone who has been active along the way in working toward a rebirth, I firmly believe we're on the way. We have the employment (legal, accounting, government, medical, artistic, just to name a few), we now have the housing, the retail is on its way back (we already have the small services, churches, libraries, arts, the YMCA; Publix is next, then the DDB is probably going to have to prime the pump to give chain retail an incentive like an American Eagle or a JCPenney (which is once again building freestanding sites).

Is Orlando going to be Manhattan? Nope. But it certainly has all the parts to hold its own as the centerpiece of an MSA that will, if it hasn't already, break the top 25 by the 2010 census. That's not pie in the sky- that's a projection built upon solid evidence. Even more important, as the biocluster takes off and if the feds invest more in either the military, space or both, we are well situated given our strengths in aerospace, optics and simulation to benefit. And, although those industries will be based outside the core, they will increase the tax base and attract services to the downtown core as they grow.

[Camillo Sitte]

Disney has given $12 million towards the OPAC and will have a performance hall named in their honor. They also sit on the board and will contribute creatively to it. No ignorance here my friend, just have seen for myself how Disney has been upping their community involvement in recent history.

I am aware of their contributions but they are mere a drop in the bucket my friend, +/- 2% of total cost.

This won't even pay for the parking.

Call me when they pony up another $100 mil.

Edited September 3, 2007 by Camillo Sitte

[Camillo Sitte]

To me, I think most of us are a little amazed because we are seeing a comparison of apples to oranges. Knoxville has not been, and does not apear to now be, "America's Next Great City" (to borrow Tampa's term). It's all about growth. For as long as anyone I know can remember, the competition in TN was between Memphis and Nashville - Nashville won, btw <g>. Knoxville has been Tennessee's 3rd city for a very long time, and there are no signs of that changing.

[sigh]

I agree with much of what you say but please go back and read what I wrote.

I never wrote nor suggested that freaking Knoxville was a world-class city, or an up-n-comer. Neither did I write or suggest that freaking Knoxville was "better" than Orlando.

My point was simply to highlight for the more hyperbolic of the Orlando fan bois here that smaller cities like Knoxville, like Des Moines have done as much, and sometimes more, to create a vibrant urban core than have much larger cities like Orlando.

Of course Orlando's future is much brighter in terms of urban growth and development than is Knoxville or Des Moines but I never wrote or suggested otherwise, this was not my point.

Oy, you guys win.

I surrender. I have drunk the water and the Emperor’s new duds look simply beautiful, better than Armani.

I am tired, my beam and columns are now sized and my girlfriend wants to have a late dinner.

I wonder if there is a burrito joint open late on Sunday in downtown Orlando.

Cheers.

Edited September 3, 2007 by Camillo Sitte

[spenser1058]

[sigh]

I agree with much of what you say but please go back and read what I wrote.

I never wrote nor suggested that freaking Knoxville was a world-class city, or an up-n-comer. Neither did I write or suggest that freaking Knoxville was "better" than Orlando.

My point was simply to point out to the more hyperbolic of the Orlando fan bois here that smaller cities like Knoxville, like Des Moines have done as much, and sometimes more, to create a vibrant urban core than have much larger cities like Orlando.

Of course Orlando's future is much brighter in terms of urban growth and development than is Knoxville or Des Moines but I never wrote or suggested otherwise, this was not my point.

I'll take your point, but given that 40 years ago Orlando was only the size of Lakeland, I am amazed at what we've accomplished. So I guess that your tone, which seems to indicate we have failed somewhere, is what perhaps caused the misunderstanding. Growth at the level we accomplished was not preordained - leaders like Martin Andersen, Billy Dial and Bill Frederick helped Orlando become something no one could have imagined just after WWII. That kind of leadership is the same thing that made Atlanta blossom. It's funny that many on here assume Atlanta was always the megatropolis it has become. In fact, as recently as the 50's, no one knew if Atlanta or Birmingham would be the South's major city. That we are now following in its footsteps without even being the state capital (we tried but failed on that one back in Gov. Kirk's era) with precious few corporate headquarters under our belts is all the more fascinating.

[Camillo Sitte]

I'll take your point, but given that 40 years ago Orlando was only the size of Lakeland, I am amazed at what we've accomplished. So I guess that your tone, which seems to indicate we have failed somewhere, is what perhaps caused the misunderstanding. Growth at the level we accomplished was not preordained - leaders like Martin Andersen, Billy Dial and Bill Frederick helped Orlando become something no one could have imagined just after WWII. That kind of leadership is the same thing that made Atlanta blossom. It's funny that many on here assume Atlanta was always the megatropolis it has become. In fact, as recently as the 50's, no one knew if Atlanta or Birmingham would be the South's major city. That we are now following in its footsteps without even being the state capital (we tried but failed on that one back in Gov. Kirk's era) with precious few corporate headquarters under our belts is all the more fascinating.

Again, I basically agree with what you say.

I was not pointing out any failure, just attempting to moderate some of the more outrageous speculation and baseless boosterism going on here, some perspective beyond the inital Disney-spurred boom of the 60's and 70's if you will.

That others may disagree is both their right and privilege.

Cheers.

[Hisma]

Ok, Downtown Miami in no way lacks Nightlife, after South Beach Downtown has the next biggest nightlife in Miami with huge clubs like Space and Nocturnal that nothing in Olando can compare to, This part of the CBD also closes streets off for pedestrian traffic.

And why would you not consider Bayside downtown!?!?

Its the biggest attraction to Downtown and including the fact that IT IS IN DOWNTOWN, Aside from Bayside there is Bayfront Park which is a nice big urban park, and then theirs Bicentinial Park which right now is a blank canvas that in a couple of years is going to be a huge urban Museum Park.

And when did the PAc and the Arena leave Downtown? Last time I looked out my window both the Carnival Center and The American Airlines Arena are all there and doing very well, not to mention that the Marlins are getting pretty close to building their Ballpark in Downtown with the recent visit of the MLB to Miami.

And yes to the east the neighborhoods are anything but desirable bit look what it has to the south and north, two huge and growing dense urban neighborhoods. And as someone that has been living in Downtown Miami for a while now I can tell you that the change and what is going to happen is very remarkable. The street scene has already improved considerably in the last year, the real issue facing downtown is its asthetics like its sidewalks and aging building but like I said its all changing and its already evident today with the city cleaning up the streets, fixing up old building and widening up the sidewalks and adding more canopy.

And I agree Miami Beach is great but I personally would not want to live there its still a beach enviorment that I would only want to visit not live, Downtown Miami has alot going for it and you seem to be the only one to think its having growing pains.

And people seem to paint Downtown Orlando as something its not, during the day its pedestrian traffic is mediaocore and quite pathetic, during the weekends its dead, and on during the night two or three streets have heavy night life that again is not the best. Hopefully the new condos and building help it out but seriously. Better nightlife in Florida can be found here in Miami and even Ft. Lauderdale has better nightlife. Pedestrian traffic and lively neighborhood, again Ft. Lauderdale, Miami and even Sarasota and Jacksonville. Alot of people on this board seem to be way too biased with Orlando, Im a native Orlandaon but you guys have to face reality.

Other than the nightlife debate (I was under the impression everyone goes to SoBe to party), I think we have different opinions as to where downtown Miami begins and ends. I hope Miami continues to improve since it is the flagship of this state, but when I was in DT Miami ~3 years ago (I suppose alot has changed since then), I was pretty dissapointed.

Here is a pic of carnival center

Does that look like downtown? Nah. Apparently it's got some great development spinning off near by, but I still don't consider that downtown. Again, I'm talking about the core of Miami here. I don't consider Brickell downtown either tho some people may. Same with orlando I don't consider the medical corridor downtown. Now, as far as Bayside, yes it straddles downtown, but it's off in it's own little corner, with nothing really "connecting" it to the core. It's definately close to downtown, but you don't feel like you're in downtown while you're on the premises. The arena is probably the closest thing, but once again it's not woven well into the urban fabric of downtown. Now, with all those condos going up around those places all may change, but as of right now it's not quite there yet.

Also, I can't believe you mentioned Sarasota. I was just there 2 months ago, and let me tell you, that place is DEAD. It has so many beautiful condo buildings around downtown, yet there's no almost no street life, and after dark the place is a ghost town.

So you make it sound like we're overly optimistic about orlando, yet you make these off-base comparisons. With as many positive things down the pipe for downtown orlando, why not be optimistic?

Mods, can we put this debate in a seperate thread? It's gone way off base tho I don't want this to screw up "Plaza" discussion and I don't think this warrants locking.

Edited September 3, 2007 by Hisma