The Plaza

[JRS1]

Not living in the area at the moment, so not sure if that was sarcasm or not?

no... he was being serious. Court St. is a madhouse with trucks.

[Camillo Sitte]

It was a real question. I thought you lived in Knoxville. My mistake. I guess I take it from my personal exprience of having living in Chicago, New York and San Francisco for the last 12 years now. I just consider it part of my urban trifecta. That's it.

Ah, I see.

My current 'trifecta' is L.A., Orlando, Paris [8th] but I have in the past lived in NYC, Boston, and a couple of places in the Midwest.

I am seriously thinking about trading Paris flat for one in Oslo. Paris will always be special but Norway is a magnificent country.

[Camillo Sitte]

^^

Guys, c'mon. you gotta be objective about stuff and sometimes tell it like it is. I'm guilty of having been a cheerleader for ORL in the past and had some disagreements with Camillo, but, as it turns out, he does know his stuff;

Camillo, for the record, I recognize... I think most posters here do...

I think I'm getting old or apathetic or both. nowadays, unless I see a shovel, I don't care. and as far as classifying stuff (i.e., Orlando's status, etc.)... I think I lost my fervor for it. I see the good with the bad and things do need to be put in perspective sometimes.

$.02

I appreciate that

[shrug][/shrug]

If someone wants to get heated defending their position on some subject and their views run counter to my own then great, that is perfectly OK with me

Edited October 20, 2007 by Camillo Sitte

[Hisma]

I am an iconoclast by nature so I don't need to feel that everyone [or anyone] agrees with me in order to feel validated or to have the warm fuzzies and I don't need for everyone else to be wrong in order for me to be right.

I've gathered that quite well. Both you and Julez seem to be the iconoclasts of this subforum. It's perfectly fine to have a few people play devils advocate however, I have no problem with it since at least the two of you are civil and provide some informative, healthy debates.

[bulldogger]

I am throwing this out there to anyone in this and The Vue...

Can someone get an unobstructed photo (or a few) of the shuttle launch tomorrow?

[solaricfission]

If this could just happen already.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertain...g-wolhagai.html

Link wont repost its stating that although it maybe crying wolf, AMC is finally working on the movie theater.

We're hearing this AM that the deal is at last done, that there is to be an AMC in downtown O-Town.

Nothing on developer Cameron Kuhn's site. No "official announcement." Remember, he had a countdown clock for that theater to open Labor Day weekend. Didn't happen.

Nothing on AMC's site hinting at hiring, for instance, for a new Orlando theater. They pretty much denied this was the sort of deal they made (they prefer stand-alone big box cinemas) last time I chatted with them.

Edited November 8, 2007 by solaricfission

[CHCTRescue2]

If this could just happen already.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertain...g-wolhagai.html

Can you resubmit? The link didn't work.

[JRS1]

I heard the same thing about AMC;

Bento, Cold Stone, Corona Cigar, Volcano's are all going thru buildout right now. (there may be another... sky-walker...)

Urban Flats and Salon Elyse have both opened.

Edited November 8, 2007 by JRS1

[solaricfission]

According to our beloved local newspaper...

AMC Entertainment Inc. is the operator of the new 12-screen theater in downtown Orlando, company officials and developer Cameron Kuhn confirmed today for the Orlando Sentinel.

[wally2169]

It's official

Downtown Orlando theater to be 12-screen AMC

By Jerry W. Jackson {sodEmoji.|} Sentinel Staff Writer

5:03 PM EST, November 8, 2007

Downtown Orlando theater to be 12-screen AMC

[JRS1]

heard the same thing.

tell you what, news of AMC downtown is huge. make sure you all see the news in the other metro thread about JW Marriott going to downtown Winter Park (old Regent hotel site)... more huge news for the core (extended core).

[fenderbender]

heard the same thing.

tell you what, news of AMC downtown is huge. make sure you all see the news in the other metro thread about JW Marriott going to downtown Winter Park (old Regent hotel site)... more huge news for the core (extended core).

Glad to see this settle finally. One more "essential" covered for the downtown core. Next step.. Publix...

[bic]

I'm glad it turned out to be AMC. I don't see many movies in the theatres anymore but when I used to, I would most definitely prefer to go to a theater with a run by a reputable brand name than an independent theater where you don't know what you're going to get.

[wally2169]

I'm glad it turned out to be AMC. I don't see many movies in the theatres anymore but when I used to, I would most definitely prefer to go to a theater with a run by a reputable brand name than an independent theater where you don't know what you're going to get.

Not only so much a good quality experience but AMC is so well known throughout the world, it'll be easy as hell to market so I will find it hard for people not to notice or not to consider

[prahaboheme]

I'd love to see a nice big neon AMC sign right up the side of the building. Great news finally! Downtown's most influential new tenant?

[FrigginGr8est]

Wouldn't it make sense for them to work 24/7 and try to open before Christmas? They would lose a ton of money by missing the season.

[JRS1]

^^

assumingly they could, but to do so would require overtime pay to the subs/workers, which would up the price...

[sunshine]

Downtown multiplex coming soon

AMC confirms its plans for a 12-screen movie theater to open in early 2008 in the Plaza on Orange Avenue.

Jerry W. Jackson {sodEmoji.|} Sentinel Staff Writer

November 9, 2007

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/...rl_tab01_layout

[bulldogger]

Wouldn't it make sense for them to work 24/7 and try to open before Christmas? They would lose a ton of money by missing the season.

Yeah, they're going to miss Thanksgiving and Christmas seasons. They may get a little bump the week or two leading into the Oscars, but otherwise, they are looking at Memorial Day for their first good movie weekend rush. It would bother me to think that a smaller theater chain was doing this, but since it is AMC, they can handle the early losses. I think it will be used heavily... if the theater is nice and has good sound proofing and projection.

[FLClarkKent]

[MaXxlife]

Corner of Church & Rosalind

[cwetteland]

Shove it in ear Shirley.

Simply a fact.

Listen Nancy, some of my tax money went to incentivize this project and much of what was promised [reclaimed revenues from rent and office condo sales tax, downtown cinema, diversified retail] has yet to materialize.

I am sorry that sometimes simple facts might not always portray some particular image that you wish to coddle in the best of light.

I missed the part of the UP TOS that requires that every post must agree with some particular group of self-appointed fan bois...

OK Sally ... hey this is fun ... incentives YES ... tax money ... not really much. Most of the incentives were tax breaks ... tax money that wouldn't have been collected if the building hadn't been built. It's like Orlando is collecting 1,000/mo (just example) for the empty abandoned buildings. New building based on value should pay $1,000,000/mo for 10 years (aka $120,000,000) city comes along and says if you build this you only have to pay $500,000/mo for the first 10 years. MEDIA comes in and say city gave away $60,000,000 in incentives. Then the city says if you provide extra parking and let other users use it on nights and weekends we'll give you $5,000,000. The Media again adds that to get $65,000,000 ... again "big give-away." Not mentioning that if the city had to provide the same parking on nights and weekends for downtown venue it'd cost them more than the $5,000,000.

I'm not saying the city didn't give them anything, and yeah I'm pulling these numbers out of (lets just say air) but I'm saying it was probably a very small fraction of what the media math hypes it to be ... and in the long run the city (and thus taxpayers) probably make out in the deal.

[Camillo Sitte]

OK Sally ... hey this is fun ... incentives YES ... tax money ... not really much. Most of the incentives were tax breaks ... tax money that wouldn't have been collected if the building hadn't been built. It's like Orlando is collecting 1,000/mo (just example) for the empty abandoned buildings. New building based on value should pay $1,000,000/mo for 10 years (aka $120,000,000) city comes along and says if you build this you only have to pay $500,000/mo for the first 10 years. MEDIA comes in and say city gave away $60,000,000 in incentives. Then the city says if you provide extra parking and let other users use it on nights and weekends we'll give you $5,000,000. The Media again adds that to get $65,000,000 ... again "big give-away." Not mentioning that if the city had to provide the same parking on nights and weekends for downtown venue it'd cost them more than the $5,000,000.

I'm not saying the city didn't give them anything, and yeah I'm pulling these numbers out of (lets just say air) but I'm saying it was probably a very small fraction of what the media math hypes it to be ... and in the long run the city (and thus taxpayers) probably make out in the deal.

[1] Did you recently wake up from a comma? That post was from two months ago.

[2] You seem to take personal offense at a post that wasn't even directed at you.

[3] I genuinely hope that The Plaza/Solaire/AMC is a success. This would be a big net plus for the City.

[4] Trust me, I understand the conceptual benefits of TIF and the like.

[5] Yes, your numbers are "out of thin air", that or your as...

[5a] For starters the City loaned Kuhne about $15 million out of the city's general fund [read: TAX DOLLARS] to build The Plaza parking garage, at sub-prime rates, to be paid back over 10 years.

If Kuhne's project goes Tango Uniform or severely underperforms then the City basically eats that loan because it was not secured with collateral.

Yes, the city would likely end up owning the garage after going through bankruptcy and receivership but what good is a large parking garage where there might not be any business?

[5b] The City gave Kuhne, again from the general fund, $3.5 in cash AS A GIFT, for "redeveloping a deteriorated block" [yeah, right, deteriorated]. This money was a pure gift and does not have to be paid back or converted.

[5c] The City is obligated to give any eventual theater operator $3.5 million IN CASH over 10-years. The only obligation the theater operator has is to stay in continuous operation in order to receive a $350,000 cash distribution each year.

If AMC [or anyone else] does eventually open a theater at The Plaza it aint because they think the market is a no-brainer - it is because the City is buying their risk - the City is subsidizing AMC's business.

*****

So, that right there is $22 million in TAX money.

Given current Solaire occupation, or even projecting out realistically the next 5 years, just how much of that $22 million will the city get back in property taxes on a handful of $200,000 -$400,000 condos, a couple of fast food joints, and a bunch of empty office space?

Uh huh...

Edited December 8, 2007 by Camillo Sitte

[cwetteland]

[1] Did you recently wake up from a comma? That post was from two months ago.

[2] You seem to take personal offense at a post that wasn't even directed at you.

[3] I genuinely hope that The Plaza/Solaire/AMC is a success. This would be a big net plus for the City.

[4] Trust me, I understand the conceptual benefits of TIF and the like.

[5] Yes, your numbers are "out of thin air", that or your as...

[5a] For starters the City loaned Kuhne about $15 million out of the city's general fund [read: TAX DOLLARS] to build The Plaza parking garage, at sub-prime rates, to be paid back over 10 years.

If Kuhne's project goes Tango Uniform or severely underperforms then the City basically eats that loan because it was not secured with collateral.

Yes, the city would likely end up owning the garage after going through bankruptcy and receivership but what good is a large parking garage where there might not be any business?

[5b] The City gave Kuhne, again from the general fund, $3.5 in cash AS A GIFT, for "redeveloping a deteriorated block" [yeah, right, deteriorated]. This money was a pure gift and does not have to be paid back or converted.

[5c] The City is obligated to give any eventual theater operator $3.5 million IN CASH over 10-years. The only obligation the theater operator has is to stay in continuous operation in order to receive a $350,000 cash distribution each year.

If AMC [or anyone else] does eventually open a theater at The Plaza it aint because they think the market is a no-brainer - it is because the City is buying their risk - the City is subsidizing AMC's business.

*****

So, that right there is $22 million in TAX money.

Given current Solaire occupation, or even projecting out realistically the next 5 years, just how much of that $22 million will the city get back in property taxes on a handful of $200,000 -$400,000 condos, a couple of fast food joints, and a bunch of empty office space?

Uh huh...

In a coma ... maybe ... but

A run down central core costs the city. It costs a city by the crime it invites. It costs a city by the lack of business investment (aka jobs). It costs the city by the continual migration of all who can afford it to the suburbs. If the city isn't investing in making itself a vibrant place to live and work, it isn't managing it's money well at all.

Of the 22 million you mentioned 15 million was is a loan, the cost to the city is the difference between prime and sub prime or what 1% a year the first year (150K) and then declining until repayment in 10 years. So it gets the use of the garage for on average less than 150K year ... compared to what if it had to build it themselves? Sounds like a very smart investment to me.

So the giving is now down to 7 million. And 1/2 of that is based on a success of business that attracts not only patrons into the city core but also other businesses that will cater to them and also pay taxes. Like you just said if the theaters don't make it then they don't get the money. Yes you are subsidising a business that until things get going is probably going to lose money for 10 years. No business is able to sustain those kind of losses ... so by giving assuming the risk for a few key selected business they are able to jumpstart a city core. Why a movie? Movies mean people, people need restaurants, people need other venues, people need retail. Same goes for the Publix ... it will lose money for a while but those are key pieces in jumpstarting a living downtown. And it will probably take 10 years.

So now the only gift even if falure ensues is the 3.5 million ... we're a long way from 22 million now. So the city goverment which is trying to get a languishing downtown to blossom shouldn't spend 3.5 million to assume some of the risk of something with the potential to start a downtown growth renaisance. I'd be pissed if they didn't. They spend that much bricking a few streets and planting palm trees ... and I dare say the plaza stands much more chance of helping spur growth than bricks and palms on a street do.

Just my opinion.

Edited December 8, 2007 by cwetteland

[Camillo Sitte]

In a coma ... maybe ... but

A run down central core costs the city. It costs a city by the crime it invites. It costs a city by the lack of business investment (aka jobs). It costs the city by the continual migration of all who can afford it to the suburbs. If the city isn't investing in making itself a vibrant place to live and work, it isn't managing it's money well at all.

Of the 22 million you mentioned 15 million was is a loan, the cost to the city is the difference between prime and sub prime or what 1% a year the first year (150K) and then declining until repayment in 10 years. So it gets the use of the garage for on average less than 150K year ... compared to what if it had to build it themselves? Sounds like a very smart investment to me.

So the giving is now down to 7 million. And 1/2 of that is based on a success of business that attracts not only patrons into the city core but also other businesses that will cater to them and also pay taxes. Like you just said if the theaters don't make it then they don't get the money. Yes you are subsidising a business that until things get going is probably going to lose money for 10 years. No business is able to sustain those kind of losses ... so by giving assuming the risk for a few key selected business they are able to jumpstart a city core. Why a movie? Movies mean people, people need restaurants, people need other venues, people need retail. Same goes for the Publix ... it will lose money for a while but those are key pieces in jumpstarting a living downtown. And it will probably take 10 years.

So now the only gift even if falure ensues is the 3.5 million ... we're a long way from 22 million now. So the city goverment which is trying to get a languishing downtown to blossom shouldn't spend 3.5 million to assume some of the risk of something with the potential to start a downtown growth renaisance. I'd be pissed if they didn't. They spend that much bricking a few streets and planting palm trees ... and I dare say the plaza stands much more chance of helping spur growth than bricks and palms on a street do.

Just my opinion.

And I respect your opinion [at least your right to it] but let's be clear as to what my post which you quoted was about to begin with: some ass-clown here started whining about, 'what business' did I have of criticizing this project yadda, yadda, yadda.

I responded that as an Orlando taxpayer, yes, even one wealthy enough to have homes in both Orlando and Los Angeles, I had every right to question the performance of a private project that was being financed at least in part, with some of my money.

Not once have I ever said or suggested that I want The Plaza to fail or that I was in any way against the concept of public/private urban redevelopment. I am however in favor of clear-headed fiscal responsibility when public money that is also needed in so many other areas [public education?] is at stake.

I am not saying that cities should not pursue redevelopment deals, even those using public money, they should. They should also be required to perform due diligence as to the realistic viability of the project being proposed.

IMHO Kuhne should have been required to have >50% of all condo, restaurant, and office space contracts signed and in place before the City handed over dollar one given that Kuhne himself has no track record with large-scale developments and has no personal assets with which to secure the loans/handouts.

Cheers.

Edited December 8, 2007 by Camillo Sitte