Scott Maddox enters Race for Governor!

[EngineerNole]

This is a construction and urban development forum, not a political one. Yes, some politics dictate urban growth, but let's not get into the actual political races or Bill Clinton. A lot could be said about Bill Clinton, KRC. GOOD and BAD! I'll keep my opinions to myself because I feel this political debate doesn't belong here.

[Florida]

Said by the man who earlier posted a posted a political endorsement.

[Dale]

Well, I might quibble with your sense that you're above the fray, but I'm totally okay at this point geting back to Tallahasee development !

[Florida]

Quibble away. My hope is he will return some of the jobs Jeb outsourced to out-of-state companies to our state employees. The local economy could use that boost.

[Go Gators]

I apologize for making this post end up what was not intended. I am a student and have worked in the Florida Legislature for the past two years, for a Republican Senator and a Democratic Representative (although a very conservative democrat.) I was simply noting that for every typical solution on one side, there is an equal typical solution on the other side. Just things that I have learned

[KRC]

I apologize for making this post end up what was not intended.  I am a student and have worked in the Florida Legislature for the past two years, for a Republican Senator and a Democratic Representative (although a very conservative democrat.)  I was simply noting that for every typical solution on one side, there is an equal typical solution on the other side.  Just things that I have learned

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excellent point and one in which I was trying to explore. Politics has a great deal to do with economic development. It would have been fun to learn both sides of the discussion. Unfortunately, civilized conversation is still under attack in some circles. I guess we'll try it again in a few years. Good luck guys. I hope Tallahassee's future development goes well.

[Dale]

I apologize for making this post end up what was not intended.  I am a student and have worked in the Florida Legislature for the past two years, for a Republican Senator and a Democratic Representative (although a very conservative democrat.)  I was simply noting that for every typical solution on one side, there is an equal typical solution on the other side.  Just things that I have learned

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fair enough. And I myself an hardpressed, at times, to draw a clear distinction between Democratic and Republican governance. Which is why you'll see me framing discussions in terms of 'right' and 'left'.

[RiversideGator]

Interesting observation. Can you give specific examples of where this is true? You know, exact examples where a company was forced out of business specifically because of Democrats and a list of the names of all the "little guys" who lost their jobs because of it? If not, I'll have to disregard your statement as usual Republican propaganda. You know, baseless and untrue name calling. Isn't it getting a little old?

KRC: A specific example of business fleeing government regulation is provided by Fidelity National Financial, a Fortune 500 Company, which left California and relocated to Jacksonville, FL in 2003. The CEO cited specifically as the reason for the relocation the unfriendly business climate in CA (which has been caused by 10+ years of Dems controlling the state legislature, the CA Supreme Cout, and, until recently, the governor's house). An unfriendly business climate is one in which taxes are excessive and regulations are overly burdensome and the general climate therefore does not encourage either the growth of existing businesses or the relocation of business. Any more questions??

[RiversideGator]

And why do y'all cry for momma (i.e. the moderators) to shut down any discussion that turns political. The premise of this web site (with which I agree) is that smart development and new urbanism is superior to suburban sprawl. This inherently will lead to arguments. Who cares - I can handle that. People shouldnt be so sensitive. The only thing I disagree with is the socialist bent of many on here. I think we can all agree on most issues of urban development though.

[Go Gators]

Said by the man who earlier posted a posted a political endorsement. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just curious Riverside, who are you referring to as "ya'll" and "socialist"?

[Go Gators]

The above was not supposed to have the quote by Dale, but rather RiversideGator. Sorry about that.

[RiversideGator]

Go Gators (Nice name, by the way): The y'all refered to the person on this thread who asked that the thread be shut down b/c it had degenerated into a political debate (although this comment seems to have been deleted since I posted). Socialists refers to anyone, either Dem or Rep, who prefers high taxes and excessive regulation on business and individuals to a more unfettered approach to capitalism. We have a situation now where govt (state, local, federal) takes something like 35-40% of the GNP of this country in taxes. This is socialism and it retards economic growth.

[RiversideGator]

I said y'all b/c I have seen other people ask that debate be cut off in other threads.

[KRC]

KRC:  A specific example of business fleeing government regulation is provided by Fidelity National Financial, a Fortune 500 Company, which left California and relocated to Jacksonville, FL in 2003.  The CEO cited specifically as the reason for the relocation the unfriendly business climate in CA (which has been caused by 10+ years of Dems controlling the state legislature, the CA Supreme Cout, and, until recently, the governor's house).  An unfriendly business climate is one in which taxes are excessive and regulations are overly burdensome and the general climate therefore does not encourage either the growth of existing businesses or the relocation of business.  Any more questions??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excellent. Actually, yes I do have another question or two. Now, exactly what type of financial dealings does this company wish to pursue that California finds offensive and why? There has to be a reason for the regulation and taxation. Rules don't just "pop up" in my experience. There are reasons they exist. Some states purposefully put such regulations in place because they don't really want certain types of businesses to existing. Perhaps the circumstances at the time dictated it, but have since changed. Remember, California is considered much more of a hotbed of economic development over Florida. Venture capital expenditures are much higher in California than Florida. Why do you think that is still the case if Florida is considered more business friendly in your view? While that one company moved to Florida, more want to be in California. California has a much higher general standard of living. Florida mostly pays minimum wage for the same job. My job is a good example. Where I live, I make over $35k, in Florida I found the same job paying $19,500 with no benefits!

[Go Gators]

Riverside- Nice name yourself. I was just making sure we werent using "ya'll" to describe views. LOL I know WHAT a socialist is, Ive studied it to death. I just wanted to know the context in which you were using it.

Will you be at the Wyoming game for Urbans first entrance?

[Captain Obvious]

Where I live, I make over $35k, in Florida I found the same job paying $19,500 with no benefits!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your house, car, gas, insurance, prices for many goods and services (not to mention personal taxes) are all probably significantly more expensive too. It's just a trade off, like most things.

For example, a real estate lawyer might make $120k in Cali, and "only" $70k in Florida. But a house in Florida might only cost a 3rd the price of a similar house in Cali, plus there's no state income tax in Florida.

[RiversideGator]

KRC: The CEO of Fidelity, which does title insurance and other real estate servicing, cited as specific reason for relocating the poor business climate in CA as opposed to in FL. See http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/..._12104364.shtml

I suppose the anti-business CA state regulations (which include workers comp laws, unemployment compensation laws, higher corporate taxes, state income taxes, etc) were really intended to keep out "undesirable" companies like Fidelity. Good move California. The reality is the state government, which has been controlled by liberal socialists, has used California businesses as ATM machines and businesses within the US can opt to pick up and move to another state.

[KRC]

KRC:  The CEO of Fidelity, which does title insurance and other real estate servicing, cited as specific reason for relocating the poor business climate in CA as opposed to in FL.  See  http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/..._12104364.shtml

I suppose the anti-business CA state regulations (which include workers comp laws, unemployment compensation laws, higher corporate taxes, state income taxes, etc) were really intended to keep out "undesirable" companies like Fidelity.  Good move California.  The reality is the state government, which has been controlled by liberal socialists, has used California businesses as ATM machines and businesses within the US can opt to pick up and move to another state.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay. I can understand your viewpoint. But what about standards of living? All the taxes you mention help to pick up the slack that companies won't do on their own. When you are layed-off, do you really think the company that let you go will generously keep paying you until you can find another job? Well, we both know the answer to that is no. The free market is greeeeeeedy. I should know. I made it work for me and I'm now financially comfortable and I'm only 36. It doesn't care about being a good citizen. That's what government is for. And honestly, do you really for one second believe that "liberal socialist" are the only ones feeding at the trough? As we see now with the never ending drama that is Tom DeLay, it would appear not. Speaking of nightmares, aren't you glad you not him?

[prahaboheme]

OH WOW, one company pulls out of the sixth largest global economy. Those Democrats must be doing something wrong!!

[RiversideGator]

Read Adam Smith, The Wealth Of Nations. The "invisible hand" of the market causes society, in the aggregate, to advance through the actions of many individuals acting in their own best interests. Everyone works so that they can pay for things. If this is greed, so what. Capitalism is the best system ever devised. This is the bottom line.

[KRC]

Read Adam Smith, The Wealth Of Nations.  The "invisible hand" of the market causes society, in the aggregate, to advance through the actions of many individuals acting in their own best interests.  Everyone works so that they can pay for things.  If this is greed, so what.  Capitalism is the best system ever devised.  This is the bottom line.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True, but not everyone is qualified (for a mirade of reasons) to play by those rules. You can't just throw them aside. Also, I'm familar with Mr. Smith and I find his arguments to be valid, but one sidely simplistic. He only looks at issues for the "get the buck" viewpoint and the instinct of survival mode. Again, valid, but in my view not the whole story. Being a good neighbor is not a bad thing no matter what anybody says. I'm not so dumb as to think there aren't leaches among us, but it's not the norm. Capitalism is good system, but not the best. Don't forget greed is a sin.

[Aessotariq]

It's also worth mentioning that the classical school of thought and the laissez faire-style capitalism favored at the time were very instrumental in setting into motion the events that led to the Great Depression. The only society I can think of that has pulled off anything like this successfully is Hong Kong.

[Dale]

Just did a google search on 'causes of great depression'. Apparently the answer depends on one's political leanings.

[KRC]

Just did a google search on 'causes of great depression'. Apparently the answer depends on one's political leanings.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was over production, too much faith in laissez-fair approach to business and lack of social safety nets for just such emergencies. Those three issue have been dealt with one way or another over the years. We've had similar downward spirals since that time and the Great Depression hasn't re-occurred to that extreme since. Even 9/11 couldn't do it. It's not perfect, but it works from time to time.

[RiversideGator]

Actually, among competent economists, the consensus is the Great Depression was caused initially by the regular decline phase of the business cycle. This was then greatly exacerbated by the actions of many governments, including the US, in raising trade barriers (see Smoot-Hawley tariff). Further, Roosevelt's actions (increased regulations, burdens on business, etc.) actually prolonged the depression and we only really got out of the Depression after WWII.

Y'all should read anything by Joseph Shumpeter, such as the Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy. See http://transcriptions.english.ucsb.edu/arc...schumpeter.html Essentially, downturns in the economy are normal parts of the creative process, which he labels "creative destruction" and they bring on further innovation and advancement as inefficient companies go under to be replaced by lean, new companies with better ideas/products.

As to the least among us, I believe there should be a safety net for those truly unable to fend for themselves (due to illness or old age for example). I am a Christian too and I know that the love of money is a sin, but simply making money is not. You must distinguish between the two.