Diversity Downtown?

[AirJay78]

Look at the lower income areas in any city in America.  Without constant support and money from the government, they are turned to crap in a matter of years after any kind of renovation.  A prime example is Atlanta and the entire area that was renovated for the Olympics or Baltimore's waterfront.

Hate to break it to you, but if the city wants a nice area, the lower income people aren't going to be living there.  They don't keep the area clean, they don't contribute to upkeep and crime is a major problem. 

Best idea:

That's the only way it's going to happen.  The only problem is the crime.  People have a hard time moving in and renovating when they have to worry about crime.

But, look at Winter Park.  They are moving along nicely.  The more lower income areas are being renovated one by one.  It can happen, but I guarentee that it will be done by higher income earners and the lower income people living there will be moved out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have to disagree with you there. Cities doesn't turn to crap because of lower income people in general. Cities turn to crap because of the poverty... Very different. The middle class is not your basic shopping car pusher . They are your cops, firefighters, cable guys, etc etc. These types of folks don't run cities into the ground. They make cities what they should be... cities for the common man. Poverty on the other hand is something totally different. Anyway, even if you do allow for lower income, you still have to weed out those with bad credit, plus, your still integrating them with the elites of society which I'm sure if most of us learned in sociology 101... Mix in some middle class folks with mostly upper class folks, and you'll still have an upperclass society.

[AirJay78]

Plus lets look at the #'s. A household income of 80-100k a year is probably a reasonable buyer for the cheapest condo at the vue (fuzzy math but lets go with it ). Then with a family in mind, you'd probably have to go much higher. If you are able to obtain a loan, that means that for the most part you have a stable job and good to decent credit. There's no reason why a person or family making 50-60k a year would ruin downtown Orlando. These are not poor people. These are not criminals. Its all about economic diversity and every mature city in this country engages in it. And in most of the times to an even greater degree.

But anyhow, I think if the city gives tax breaks to allow for a few lower income homes in these high priced condos, it would benefit the city greatly and in my view, would not hurt Orlando in the least.

[firemick]

I have to disagree with you there. Cities doesn't turn to crap because of lower income people in general. Cities turn to crap because of the poverty... Very different. The middle class is not your basic shopping car pusher . They are your cops, firefighters, cable guys, etc etc. These types of folks don't run cities into the ground. They make cities what they should be... cities for the common man. Poverty on the other hand is something totally different. Anyway, even if you do allow for lower income, you still have to weed out those with bad credit, plus, your still integrating them with the elites of society which I'm sure if most of us learned in sociology 101... Mix in some middle class folks with mostly upper class folks, and you'll still have an upperclass society.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The point chemmie was trying to make is that there have been alot of attempts at sprucing up neglected areas in different cities throughout the USA just for them to fall back into shambles after a few years. This somewhat can be contributed to FEEL GOOD politics. For example "An election year when you put emphasis on cleaning up an area to win an election and than forgetting about it after a couple of years when it is not in the limelight and there is no political pressure" or the citizenry of an area for letting things go after awhile. Have there been successful revitalizations, most certainly, but i bet you there have been more failures than success stories. These areas which so just happen to have lower income or poor people if you prefer are alot of times minority areas in a state of despair. The facts are facts (Poor, poorer, poverty, low income is all in the same area of socio-economics) Its just the degree of poverty be it a median income of 14,000 or no income with government subsidies. Also those with very low, low, or no income generally have either not been able to establish credit or have very little credit or sometimes bad credit. And a few have criminal records as well. There is a correlation between poverty (lower income or no income) and drugs, prostitution and the homeless plight. The facts remain. So, this topic which is a very important and a relevant topic for urbanity is more complex than just saying we are going to go in there and make everything all better because that is a pipe dream or feel good politics! If you don't start fixing the root of the problems this will never improve. Believe me, i have compassion for people of despair of any color as i see these issues in the performance of my duties as a Paramedic and Firefighter.

[firemick]

Plus lets look at the #'s. A household income of 80-100k a year is probably a reasonable buyer for the cheapest condo at the vue (fuzzy math but lets go with it

[bobliocatt]

If you don't start fixing the root of the problems this will never improve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is one of the most accurate statements that I've ever seen, regarding the current situation of Parramore and other neighborhoods with similar characteristics.

[AirJay78]

Great discussion regardless of opinion. I'm probably going to live downtown one day if I don't head on back to NY after college. But I pray that if I do buy a home downtown, that everyone around me is not just rich narrow minded folks (in many cases racist) that distroy the beautiful social aspects of an urban society. But hey, for now, I'll definitely take it for what it is on the exterior. A gorgeous place that is indeed growing fast and is pumpin on the weekend

BTW, I'm a paramedic too

[jack]

Some of the best communities offer a mix of housng for people all over economic demographics. If downtown does stays its course, with housing for people that make over 100k and is over 50, then it will eventually become an old folk community and will not be a destination. The bet commuities I have seen a middle class with a touh over upper-lower class. If 70% of the residents make between 40k and 100k and 30% makes between 20k and 40k, that commuity will be a destination. 24 hour cities need residents that can support it. Most individuals that are older and more established tend to do the same things. And that is not going to help downtown Orlando.

[DTOrlando]

It's great to see so many people interesed in Downtown Orlando, and so many great minds. It is a shame that the prices are not affordable to most.

I read in the Sentinel's business section that almost 50% of the condos are being purchased by investors. I would bet that number is even higher, as many people claim a primary residence to get better financing terms. Everyone's betting that someone will be there to purchase their unit from them, or at least pay the rent.

I also saw that a sign of a bubble and over inflated prices, is when it costs more to buy than it does to rent. That's already the case downtown. You can rent a 1/1 in the recent condo conversions for $895 or less. It would cost much more to purchase with a conventional mortgage, condo fees, and taxes.

It's pure speculation that's driving up the prices, and the real winners are the developers, as construction costs have not increased anywhere near the sales prices.

I don't think Orlando is creating many jobs that can afford a $500k condo, or at least in the numbers that are planned. It will be interesting to see what happens, and I hope the little guy doesn't get hurt.

[Hisma]

I was under the impression condo developers are putting quotas on how many condo buyers can be investors. That way, only 30% or so of sales can be for investors, while the rest have to be actual residents. Thought I heard this somewhere... it'd be a damn shame if over half the sales are investors, but it wouldn't be too hard to believe either.

[cwetteland]

^ heard about that limit but I think it was just one developer and I don't remember which one.

[DTOrlando]

I think most lenders require a 30% limit on investor's in a condo, otherwise they consider it too risky. That's why developer's try to limit it to that. Like someone said earlier, many are jumping on the second home bandwagon, because of the stock market performance and risk, but if it doesn't put a roof over your head, it's an investment.

Has anyone noticed the Grande? At night I never see any lights on in the apartments on the West side. Are the other sides the same? Too bad if these are empty and people want to live downtown.