SouthPark neighborhood Projects

[dubone]

if southpark area is ever to be a denser residential hub, they will really need to work on improving street connectivity in the area.

tyvola and woodlawn are already overburdened, with little hope of expansion.

i think archdale should be extended to connect to sharonview and arrowood/starbrook should be connected to huntingdown farms and then somehow extended to connect all the way to sharon.

as has been mentioned in other threads, hopefully they will also extend the uptown streetcar network down park or providence to connect to southpark.

i tend to think that if the pricepoint is high enough, that southpark neighbors will not really fight condo towers, but they may prefer their height be less than ~10 stories or so.

[A2]

OK guys just finished reading the paper today. Great article by Doug Smith. We are going to get high rises in SP period. I know many on this board will disagree, but the market is RED HOT. Novare is looking at sites and I know for a fact that The Morrison project with have a tower component (allbeit not that tall 10-12 stories). My assumptions are that we will see 20+ story towers REAL SOON. The whole SP neighborhood thing is not going to hold back the wave of development that is about to come on board. I know that many have debated till they are Blue in the face that SP will NEVER allow high rise condos or office towers, but now the market is in full control and the neighborhoods are not. Too be totally honest with you, I would say many of the neighborhoods would support higher density development. The mall expansion divided groups in half, but now neighborhoods are literally selling entire blocks to developers. The zoning is there, land is scarce, and demand is HIGH. We will see high rises in SP

Piedmont Row sold out in ONE DAY !!!! That's right one day. Even Trump could not expect better.

I say all of that to basically say this:

BRING ON THE CRANES !

B)

Edited August 31, 2005 by A219724

[A2]

Hyatt Hotel South Park

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This will be converted to condos now. The Hyatt group feels they can make more off of condos then the hotel. WHat is awesome about this is that if condos come on board here, the hotel supply will shrink dramatically. Guess what that means??? Yup another Hotel will have to be built. Currently SP houses almost as many workers during the week as CLT. 40,000 people work there, compared to 55,000-60,000 in Uptown. It has more office space than Raleigh. The area NEEDS hotels. From large corporations, to some of the best shopping between Atlanta and DC, expect more hotels to come on line. I personally want a "W". It would mesh well with the area and the the surrounding community. The "W's" branding is strong and I totally believe that the area could support it.

A2

Edited August 31, 2005 by A219724

[rockhilljames]

Doug Smith also mentioned Novare in his article. From the quote from Novare, it looks like they'll propose an actual tower if they find a site, and not a mid-rise.

That should be a nice fight.

[atlrvr]

I'd prefer no high-rises I think.....probaby 10 stories is as high as the area should go. There isn't the road or transit infrastructure to support hyper-density.

The majority of the development that supports an urban lifestyle should be focused in the transit corridors and downtown.....also, like office development, SouthPark is competing with downtown for residents, so when a person chosing to live in a SP high-rise is one less potential buyer for a downtown high-rise.

Of course there are some people who would buy a SP high-rise who would never consider a downtown highrise, but IMO, adequate urban product can be supplied with midrise buildings.

Bring rapid-transit to the area and my opinion will change instantly.

[rockhilljames]

Yeah, throw a light-rail spur over their from the South Corridor and watch out.

[RiverwoodCLT]

Morrison Place at Colony and Sharon Rd. in South Park

Retail, Condos and Apartments

Edited September 12, 2005 by RiverwoodCLT

[poplife88]

Does anyone know if their is a height ordinance for any condo tower that would be built in the southpark area? With novare expressing interest and the strong sales at piedmont town center, who knows, the sky may be the limit. I'm sure a tall condo tower would meet opposition from southpark residents but could/would/should it be blocked by the city?

[DigitalSky]

Well they've got office buildings in SouthPark, but they aren't that high.. I think the highest is maybe 15 stories? not sure

[A2]

Does anyone know if their is a height ordinance for any condo tower that would be built in the southpark area?  With novare expressing interest and the strong sales at piedmont town center, who knows, the sky may be the limit.  I'm sure a tall condo tower would meet opposition from southpark residents but could/would/should it be blocked by the city?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not sure that there is one in place, but I doubt it. The main oposition regarding height has been residents.

However, with more office space than dtwn Raleigh and demand at an all time high. The market will dictate height. their is limited land available around the perimeter of the mall. This alone warrents more of a veticle element in future housing.

From the info I have there will be at least two high rise developments in SP.

1) Morrison Place-Phase two

2) Novare

There could be more if the door is open to just one of the developers having success in getting a tower in.

IMO, we will see high rises. Not only in the ones currently in planning statges, but as the land becomes more scarce.

The market is dictating this now, not neighbors.

Currently many are selling out to developers for quite a pretty penny. Almost all of Fairview Road heading towards park past the mall is now for sale to developers. This includes single family.

There are even ENTIRE neighborhoods selling out. And believe me developers are paying for it. The most pricey retail is there and almost 45000 workers.

To give you some perspective about 60K workers are in Cnter City, so with nearly 45K in a fairly compact area, the trend torwards high rise living in almost inevidable.

A2

[monsoon]

I think access will the major limiter to the height of buildings. There simply isn't a way to get more people into the area, to support major highrise development. It was a traffic hell when I lived on Colony Rd. in 1984 and its only gone downhill since.

[A2]

I think access will the major limiter to the height of buildings.

Edited September 13, 2005 by A219724

[monsoon]

I would say that since it is not in the 2025 plan, the best timeframe for seeing transit going to SouthPark, might be around 2030 or so.

Considering the amount of time it takes to provide all the information to the federal government to the point where federal funding comes along for a project, I would not expect many changes to the 2025 plan until at least the South, North and University lines are built. After that, then a spur to SP might enter the plan, but it might not gain much support from the surrounding towns and communities that also get to vote on this plan.

Charlotte should consider some kind of self funding model so they could build a street car down Kennelworth and Park Rd. to SP. (Or down Tyvola to a LRT station). San Diego did this without federal funding so I don't see why we couldn't do it here. Cut the Feds out and this stuff goes much much faster.

[A2]

Charlotte should consider some kind of self funding model so they could build a street car down Kennelworth and Park Rd. to SP.

Edited September 13, 2005 by A219724

[A2]

Another addition to SP. Not a huge announcement, but pretty big in the fashion arena.

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/stori...2/tidbits1.html

This article details expansion plans for a new NYC salon called "Ecco Goia".

The salon has done many ceberties hair and is focused on Charlotte for growth. Out of all the cities the owner could have chose, she chose Charlotte. That says a lot.

The hairstylist to stars such as supermodel Naomi Campbell and tennis aces Venus and Serena Williams opened a salon for mere mortals in Charlotte this week.

Castaneda, who splits her time between Charlotte and New York, wants to add three hair stylists to the three working at the salon, near the corner of Sharon and Fairview roads. At 2,700 square feet, the studio is three times the size of her New York space.

A2

Edited September 13, 2005 by A219724

[Lady Celeste]

I am sooooooooo late to this thread but upon reading it, I don't think A2's analogy is a stretch at all.

SouthPark is to Charlotte as Lenox/Phipps is to Atlanta.

Think about it, the neighborhoods around or near SouthPark are old money from what I can gather. Same with Buckhead once you are out of the business district. Lenox/Phipps has Atlanta's choicest shopping options, SouthPark has Charlotte's choicest. There is substantial office development around Lenox/Phipps and there is substantial office development around SouthPark.

It was not that long ago that GA400 did not access the Lenox/Phipps/Buckhead area. There has been a Marta station (Lenox Station) serving the Lenox area for some time now but a majority of the office workers and patrons of the area did not fully utilize transit. It was only until within 7-8 years, when the Buckhead Marta Station opened, that the office towers became more easily available to workers via transit.

The Lenox/Phipps area was served for quite some time by only one near interstate and that was I-85. You had to take a two lane road (Lenox Rd) just to get there. The other interstate option was I-75 which is about 5 miles away. This was also along the two laned West Paces Ferry Rd. Other than that you either got there by Piedmont Rd or Peachtree Rd. Inspite of it's location, the Lenox/Phipps area (Buckhead) still blossomed. Developers go where the clients want to be. Some will choose the CBDs of Charlotte and others will choose another trendy location like SouthPark.

Local residents will complain and continue to fight but eventually there will be so many to fight that eventually concessions will be made. First it will be something like "okay, you can build that 25 story building but only allow 2500 parking spaces." This tower will be built and more retail and restaurants will follow the workers. Then some developer will propose another building but this time 35 stories. The local residents will complain so in order to get the tower built the developer will make a concession. They will lower the tower to 30 stories and only allow 2900 parking spaces. More fringe benefits will follow, more people will want to work there, more people would want to live there and on and on and on. The next thing you will have is an area popping with mid to highrise buildings like mushrooms after 6 days of steady rain. Then traffic will become an even more mangled mess and eventually Charlotte will be forced to either expand roads in the area to funnel people in and out or to consider public transit.

I think that most of the development will be linear however. Fairview(Tyvola) and or Sharon seem like the best bets because they offer access to interstates.

How did I do A2? Am I learning the area?

Again, these are all my opinions. B)

[A2]

^

LC, I could swear you live right down the road by that post.

I totally forgot about 400

DUH !!!!

You are right Phipps and Lennox grew because of the demand and the market. I will agree with some of the posters here that the neighborhoods and people in the area will fight, but you can only fight so much.

MONEY TALKS

I think the Domino Effect is inevidable in South Park. I used to live in Marrietta and went to The Phipps area a lot. I still go when I am down for Business. (I Might actually be there later this week). I agree with your access points. I forgot about West Paces Ferry Road. Not to mention Peachtree.

This area used to be a nightmare to get in and out of. It still is to a degree, but 400 really cleared that issue up. Not to mention Marta has had a significant impact.

BTW, good to see you back. I post in the ATL forum a bit, just to stop in . Please come and join the CLT forum more often. Your posting is always a breath of fresh air.

B)

A2

Edited September 13, 2005 by A219724

[monsoon]

I just don't see the NCDOT building anything like that from say I-77 to the SP area. Like the trains, the state just isn't going to commit the level funding it would take to provide more access to the SP area.

My guess is that higer end retail is going to end up in the North Park area over time.

[A2]

I just don't see the NCDOT building anything like that from say I-77 to the SP area.  Like the trains, the state just isn't going to commit the level funding it would take to provide more access to the SP area. 

My guess is that higer end retail is going to end up in the North Park area over time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

MB, I think that NorthLake will blossom, but SP will stay the high end capital of CLT.

Northlake reminds me of the Perimeter area in ATL. A good mall, office, and Hotels near Great access points (ie 485 and 77).

I do not see Southpark losing any highend stores to Northlake, rather Northlake will be modified and custom degined to serve the needs of North Meck and the citezens of North Meck (and Lake area). The market in S CLT is too rich for stores to abandon to try out a "new frontier".

If all goes well with sales and the Median incomes grow, then so will Northlake, with respect to a higher end retail.

JMHO

A2

[A2]

As for the NCDOT, I doubt they would ever fund a train or transit. I think the city will be forced to fund the answer to SP's eventual transit issues. It is definately something I think the state should fund, but I highly doubt they would draw up plans for this themselves.

UNLESS, SP become justified by the growing tax-base. The tax payers might force the issue. Currently 45K workers are in SP, with the number growing. That is a lot of workers in one place, and a lot of corporate clout.

The state could be forced to appease some of their biggest corporate tax-paying base. This could come in the form of an improvement or possibly a partnership with the county and city to add a line to SP. Again I am assuming, and we all know what happens when we assume.

A2

[monsoon]

I do not see Southpark losing any highend stores to Northlake, rather Northlake will be modified and custom degined to serve the needs of North Meck and the citezens of North Meck (and Lake area). The market in S CLT is too rich for stores to abandon to try out a "new frontier".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

20 years ago all of the high end retail was in Eastland and Southpark was a dying mall. Nobody would have predicted that it would have changed as it did. But I agree, the people are not as oriented towards mall shopping as they are in SE CLT.

[StevenRocks]

My guess is that higer end retail is going to end up in the North Park area over time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SouthPark won't stay on top forever, but unless something strange happens in the Charlotte retail scene, it's going to hold its own and get more upscale for the forseeable future.

The northern suburbs will get better and better from an upscale retail standpoint, and Northlake may scoop some stores that would typically choose SouthPark first, but the southern suburbs retail dominance will likely hold.

[dubone]

isn't centex building most of the homes on the land all around northlake? i'd have a hard time believing they are building homes for the demographics or prestige of myers park, eastover, gleneagles, and other neighborhoods in the southpark area.

it is also a stone's throw from a nuclear power station...

[monsoon]

isn't centex building most of the homes on the land all around northlake?  i'd have a hard time believing they are building homes for the demographics or prestige of myers park, eastover, gleneagles, and other neighborhoods in the southpark area. 

it is also a stone's throw from a nuclear power station...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most of the original neighborhoods around Southpark were of similar variety. 70s style tract housing. Myers Park, Eastover GlenEagles are not in the immediate SP area though Morrowcroft and Foxcoft came a few years after SP opened. For a long while Beverly Woods was the most exclusive place around SP and that housing really isn't anything to crow about.

But you bring up a good point. Almost all of the middle class and upper middle class development in Charlotte since WWII took place in the the Southeast Charlotte. For decades anyone locating here would be directed to that quadrant of the city by realitors. The less expensive new housing went up around Eastland especially when interest rates were in the 15-18% range.

I think that has changed now. With the exception of the unique neighborhoods of Dillworth, Myers Park and Eastover, the appeal of the rest of SE Charlotte has died off. At best it is a surburban wasteland (I am referring to stuff from Park Rd shopping center and beyond) made up of dressed up tract housing and people with money to throw around in expensive stores are looking for something more. They are either buying highend condos downtown or moving to lake housing depending upon their tastes. Aside from places to get drunk I think the lake has a lot more to offer these people (and most people for that matter) in the way of things to do than SE Charlotte or downtown.

SE Charlotte will always have a following, but I don't think it is that exclusive. BTW, I really don't care for any of the money throwing around stuff. I am happy to hang clothes on a clothes line to save a few dollars over the year.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

SouthPark won't stay on top forever, but unless something strange happens in the Charlotte retail scene, it's going to hold its own and get more upscale for the forseeable future.

Which area is going to topple south park?