A2

SouthPark neighborhood Projects

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As far as occupied space it's probably pretty close.....according to one submarket definition of downtown Altanta yes...another no. We have about 13.5M square feet of occupied multi-tenant office space.....the most generous number for downtown Atlanta would put them around 16M occupied.....it'll get closer with the Wachovia Tower, but keep in mind they are finishing two office towes (in the 12-15 story range) in downtown......ultimately Charlotte' downtown will probably surpass Atlanta's "downtown" but never downtown and midtown merged....and SouthPark will never come close to Buckhead which just has so much more area to build and better transportation access.

I would agree with all of these comments. I am just playing the numbers game, but clearly realize that Atlanta's TOTAL office space is much greater than that of CLT.

We have a lot of submarkets (Ballyntyne, SP, etc etc)

But ATL has midtown and Buckhead, Perimeter etc etc that put them well above our total numbers. I still think Charlotte's Uptown will stay marginally ahead of ATL's Downtown. (you can thank sprawl for Atlanta's significant downtown vacancies)

A2

Edited by A2

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Regardless of where the office numbers end up in the future....I think Charlotte's Uptown will be a far more urban area over time, though I must admit I'm pretty impressed with a lot of Atlanta proposals over the last 1-2 years.

Back to SouthPark, I haven't gotten my business journal yet so I'm not sure where this project is exactly? Between Park South and Park? If it is, keep in mind that the Public Housing behind the burger king is supposed to be redeveloped into a very dense mixed-use project.

Also, Morrison, Grubb's project a Colony and Sharon, will eventually be MUCH larger than people realize (they've started the 6 story building that will have the Earth Far topped by apts. and condos). The Village at SouthPark and the adjacent C&B will both be multi-story urban projects, and it seems a pretty safe bet that some of the low-rise strip centers on Morrison and Sharon will be redeveloped.....and you can't forget the Colony Apts....I'm just counting the days till some developer gets their hand on that prime site.

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Regardless of where the office numbers end up in the future....I think Charlotte's Uptown will be a far more urban area over time, though I must admit I'm pretty impressed with a lot of Atlanta proposals over the last 1-2 years.

Back to SouthPark, I haven't gotten my business journal yet so I'm not sure where this project is exactly? Between Park South and Park? If it is, keep in mind that the Public Housing behind the burger king is supposed to be redeveloped into a very dense mixed-use project.

Also, Morrison, Grubb's project a Colony and Sharon, will eventually be MUCH larger than people realize (they've started the 6 story building that will have the Earth Far topped by apts. and condos). The Village at SouthPark and the adjacent C&B will both be multi-story urban projects, and it seems a pretty safe bet that some of the low-rise strip centers on Morrison and Sharon will be redeveloped.....and you can't forget the Colony Apts....I'm just counting the days till some developer gets their hand on that prime site.

Yeah I saw that they started work on this. I drove by there this morning. I am also wondering when they will start on the high rise component in the back of the Morrison project ?Any ideas? . On the last comment concerning the Colony, I will refrain from replying :P .

A2

BTW, is Dee Dee's steel structure now up on Morrison the new Bojangles that we have been speaking of ??? If so, it will be two stories.

Edited by A2

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Regardless of where the office numbers end up in the future....I think Charlotte's Uptown will be a far more urban area over time, though I must admit I'm pretty impressed with a lot of Atlanta proposals over the last 1-2 years.

Back to SouthPark, I haven't gotten my business journal yet so I'm not sure where this project is exactly? Between Park South and Park?

According to the CBJ, I think I read it was where the "retirment home" is on Fairview. ;) Aw shucks, I guess I will just have to go buy the silly thing. I will be right back and let you know.

A2

Edited by A2

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Hmmm.....it must be the older one between Park South and Park.....I can't think of another on Fairview in the SP area, though it seems a little detached from the rest of the commercial core.

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Hmmm.....it must be the older one between Park South and Park.....I can't think of another on Fairview in the SP area, though it seems a little detached from the rest of the commercial core.

Ok. I am back. Here is the skinny. It is the site off of Sharon and Fairview. Does this ring a bell. Looks like 300 residential units to be incorporated into the project.

A2

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Hmmm....maybe this is the Public Housing after all....I know they recently filed a rezoning.....they may have some elderly units back there, so that's what they could be considering a retirement home.

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In 3-5 years I would say that all of that land will have been developed between Park and the SP mall. It is already the 2nd largest area of office space in both Carolinas (only behind Charlotte).

A2

I've heard this quote often over the decades (not just recent), but the forumers from Raleigh, Greensboro, and Winston Salem would seem to disagree. I don't think SP is larger than say downtown Columbia, Greenville or Charleston either.

Edited by metro.m

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Hmmm....maybe this is the Public Housing after all....I know they recently filed a rezoning.....they may have some elderly units back there, so that's what they could be considering a retirement home.

It is not a retirement home. That was my mistake it is the Live Oak Apartment site. Are you familiar with it?

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I've heard this quote often over the decades (not just recent), but the forumers from Raleigh, Greensboro, and Winston Salem would seem to disagree. I don't think SP is larger than say downtown Columbia, Greenville or Charleston either.

SP has more office space than Raleigh or W-S. I know it seems hard to believe but is true. With the recently built Piedmont Town center they just solidfied their position that much more. A lot of people do not realize how much office space there is just within a 2 mile radius of SP mall. It is unreal. Outside of the Fairview coridor. You have Barclay Downs, Morrison, Assemply Street, Carnegie, Sharon, and the list goes on and on. Let's also not forget about the office space that is off of Park Road between Woodlawn and Tyvola. This area is still considered to be a part of the SP submarket. There are buildings that exceed 8-10 stories in that area as well. I am not 100% on the actual square footage, but would estimate it to be somewhere around 7-9 million square feet within a 2 mile radius of the mall. Atlrvr do you have the stat on this?

A2

Edited by A2

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Hmmm....maybe this is the Public Housing after all....I know they recently filed a rezoning.....they may have some elderly units back there, so that's what they could be considering a retirement home.

The article suggests a Hotel in the mix as well.

A2

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Ok then it is just an opinion until we have some figures.

Looking at the SP Skyline (or lack there of) versus the Greensboro, Winston, and Raleigh Skylines, I would say it is no contest. They have more buildings, thus more floor space. Maybe you are restricting it to something like rentable space. I think then that SP would easily loose out to Myrtle Beach. If you want to see mind boggling construction, then go there.

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It is not a retirement home. That was my mistake it is the Live Oak Apartment site. Are you familiar with it?

A2

Yeah, Live Oak is the public housing complex that is behind the Burger King and the Allen Tate Building....you would never know its there from Fairview or Sharon unless you were really looking for it.

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Ok then it is just an opinion until we have some figures.

Looking at the SP Skyline (or lack there of) versus the Greensboro, Winston, and Raleigh Skylines, I would say it is no contest. They have more buildings, thus more floor space. Maybe you are restricting it to something like rentable space. I think then that SP would easily loose out to Myrtle Beach. If you want to see mind boggling construction, then go there.

FACT NOT OPINION:

In addition to being a residential center, SouthPark is the second-largest business district in the state . Tasteful office buildings are spread throughout the area, including the eye-catching Rotunda with its dancing fountains. Several hotels are also located in SouthPark, including the Hyatt, SouthPark Suite and The Park Hotel.

http://www.newcomer.com/cities/charlotte/C...hsouthwest.html

A2

Edited by A2

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I'm here with figures from the 3Q 2005.

Downtown Raleigh - 3.2M sq. ft. in inventory with 2.9M occupied

SouthPark - 3.8M sq. ft. in inventory with 3.3M occupied

Sorry, I don't have any G-boro or W-S data because they aren't big enough markets to have their own market reports.

The SP and DT Raleigh are roughly the same area size, but I don't have exact measurements. SP does not include the Park Rd. shopping center area.

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As far as occupied space it's probably pretty close.....according to one submarket definition of downtown Altanta yes...another no. We have about 13.5M square feet of occupied multi-tenant office space.....the most generous number for downtown Atlanta would put them around 16M occupied.....it'll get closer with the Wachovia Tower, but keep in mind they are finishing two office towes (in the 12-15 story range) in downtown......ultimately Charlotte' downtown will probably surpass Atlanta's "downtown" but never downtown and midtown merged....and SouthPark will never come close to Buckhead which just has so much more area to build and better transportation access.

According to Colliers Pinkard 4th Quarter report from last year the CBD is at 14.3 Million square feet. The report is one year old. After WB builds an additional 1,000,000 we can come a little closer to that liberal ATL estimate of 16M

A2

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I'm here with figures from the 3Q 2005.

Downtown Raleigh - 3.2M sq. ft. in inventory with 2.9M occupied

SouthPark - 3.8M sq. ft. in inventory with 3.3M occupied

Sorry, I don't have any G-boro or W-S data because they aren't big enough markets to have their own market reports.

The SP and DT Raleigh are roughly the same area size, but I don't have exact measurements. SP does not include the Park Rd. shopping center area.

you are right the SP submarket does EXCLUDE the Park road area. My bad. If you added that it would easily eclipse Raleigh.

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I'm here with figures from the 3Q 2005.

Downtown Raleigh - 3.2M sq. ft. in inventory with 2.9M occupied

SouthPark - 3.8M sq. ft. in inventory with 3.3M occupied

Sorry, I don't have any G-boro or W-S data because they aren't big enough markets to have their own market reports.

The SP and DT Raleigh are roughly the same area size, but I don't have exact measurements. SP does not include the Park Rd. shopping center area.

Ahh ok. So that does not include State government buildings then? That would make Raleigh easily the 2nd largest holder of office space in the state. There are 25,000 state govt. employees in Raleigh.

Edited by metro.m

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Ahh ok. So that does not include State government buildings then? That would make Raleigh easily the 2nd largest holder of office space in the state. There are 25,000 state govt. employees in Raleigh.

Not quite. Raleigh has around 38K employees in their "downtown" from the last figures I have run accross. SP employess over 40K as compared to roughly 65K workers in Uptown. Again I am probably splitting hairs by suggesting the SP employees a couple thousand more than Raleigh, but the reality and debate is that in terms if total leasable office space SP is second only to Uptown in both Carolinas.

A2

Edited by A2

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..... is that in terms if total leasable office space SP is second only to Uptown in both Carolinas.

That may be true, but that is because most office space in a city is not leaseable, especially in Raleigh. I would say that developed space in RTP easily exceeds anything in SP and possibly even DT Charlotte. However, much of it is privately owned and not leaseable.

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Not quite. Raleigh has around 38K employees in their "downtown" from the last figures I have run accross. SP employess over 40K as compared to roughly 65K workers in Uptown. Again I am probably splitting hairs by suggesting the SP employees a couple thousand more than Raleigh, but the reality and debate is that in terms if total leasable office space SP is second only to Uptown in both Carolinas.

A2

Here are the stats from a 2003 report. I was a bit generous with Raleigh's number. It is more like 32K as compared to SP's near 40K.

http://www.raleigh-nc.org/portal/server.pt...ages/REPORT.pdf

That may be true, but that is because most office space in a city is not leaseable, especially in Raleigh. I would say that developed space in RTP easily exceeds anything in SP and possibly even DT Charlotte. However, much of it is privately owned and not leaseable.

The numbers are for TOTAL office space. I apologize for suggesting "leasable" as my adjetive. SP has MORE workers and total Office space than Raleigh.

The reports show this.

A2

Edited by A2

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That report is 5 years old and does not include state workers and does not include space used by state workers.

SP is not larger than downtown Raleigh. And I would say that it doesn't even come close to the number of people working in RTP.

Edited by metro.m

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As far as occupied space it's probably pretty close.....according to one submarket definition of downtown Altanta yes...another no. We have about 13.5M square feet of occupied multi-tenant office space.....the most generous number for downtown Atlanta would put them around 16M occupied.....it'll get closer with the Wachovia Tower, but keep in mind they are finishing two office towes (in the 12-15 story range) in downtown......ultimately Charlotte' downtown will probably surpass Atlanta's "downtown" but never downtown and midtown merged....and SouthPark will never come close to Buckhead which just has so much more area to build and better transportation access.

Are you tring to tell me somthing atlrvr ? :D

A2

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That report is 5 years old and does not include state workers and does not include space used by state workers.

SP is not larger than downtown Raleigh. And I would say that it doesn't even come close to the number of people working in RTP.

The report I listed for total employment in Raleigh is less than 3 year old and actually includes estimates for 2005 through 2025.

The newcomer report I listed is less than 2 years old.

A2

Edited by A2

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Southpark has a few buildings and a shopping mall. I don't think it is the 2nd largest downtown in the Carolinas. It might be considered a big office park, but as I mentioned above, RTP would easily beat it.

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