A2

SouthPark neighborhood Projects

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Southpark has a few buildings and a shopping mall. I don't think it is the 2nd largest downtown in the Carolinas. It might be considered a big office park, but as I mentioned above, RTP would easily beat it.

I am not debating that. I am just saying that Southpark is the largest Business district in Both Carolinas outside of Uptown. That is including Raleigh's Gov't Space. There is less occupied and total office space in Downtown Raleigh than SP. They do have a much larger Downtown, but in terms of total square footage SP is larger.

A2

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Southpark has a few buildings and a shopping mall. I don't think it is the 2nd largest downtown in the Carolinas. It might be considered a big office park, but as I mentioned above, RTP would easily beat it.

Show me your numbers. I have provided reports and data along with atlrvr's (granted they are not as current as this year, but still within 2-3 years old to show perspective)

Raleigh has Less than 3.4 million square feet of space currently. Period.

SP is just shy of 4M and still being added too. Weather you call it a large office park or not does not really matter. You can call it whatever you want, just know that the total amount of office space in Raleigh is less than what is in SP. If someone can provide me with facts and figures to suggest otherwise than I will throw in the hat.

I am not arguing just having fun with our little debate metro. I want to continue since it is a little dull at the office today. :D

A2

Edited by A2

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Wow....leave for a lunch and come back to this drama.

The reports only include leaseable office space, so any government employees in a government owned building, or a single-tenant/owner-occupied building would not be included (The Charlotte Observer building in Uptwon would be an example of this). There are several buildings that fall into this category in SP, including Coca-Cola Consolidate, Sealand/Maersk, and Nucor (who occupies the old PNG building).

I would assume that the SP employment number of 40k includes retail employees....there are probably about 20k office employees at SP.

RTP has about 7.5M sq. ft. of leaseable office space with 6.1M occupied....though as Metro.M pointed out there is also a lot of owner-occupied buildings there that aren't included in that number.....

It is worth mentioning that the physical area of RTP is larger than Uptown Charlotte, SP area, and downtown Raleigh combined.

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Wow....leave for a lunch and come back to this drama.

The reports only include leaseable office space, so any government employees in a government owned building, or a single-tenant/owner-occupied building would not be included (The Charlotte Observer building in Uptwon would be an example of this). There are several buildings that fall into this category in SP, including Coca-Cola Consolidate, Sealand/Maersk, and Nucor (who occupies the old PNG building).

I would assume that the SP employment number of 40k includes retail employees....there are probably about 20k office employees at SP.

RTP has about 7.5M sq. ft. of leaseable office space with 6.1M occupied....though as Metro.M pointed out there is also a lot of owner-occupied buildings there that aren't included in that number.....

It is worth mentioning that the physical area of RTP is larger than Uptown Charlotte, SP area, and downtown Raleigh combined.

Ok so I guess I will throw in the hat. Thx atlrvr. I guess the question then becomes what defines a business district? It seems many reports want to put SP as the largest in the state outside of Uptown. I am sure they are not throwing that out just haphazardly.

A2 (not to be confused with A1 :lol: )

Mmmmm Yummy.

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Show me your numbers. I have provided reports and data along with atlrvr's (granted they are not as current as this year, but still within 2-3 years old to show perspective)

A2

Buildings in DT Winston Salem

Wachovia Center - 600,000 sq ft

Winston Tower - 435,927

BB&T HQ - 238,915

GMAC - 501,060

Reynolds American Tower - 266,288

Nissan - 225,676

RJR Plaza - 579,991

Liberty Plaza - 201059

One West 4th - 461491

Brown and Williamson - 165,000

Total - 3,675,407

This is just a few of the many buildings that are located within walking distance of each other in downtown Winston Salem. If I listed them all they would be twice this amount. I rest my case.

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From RTPs web site

An estimated 38,000 full-time employees work in RTP

(About 44,000 including contract employees)

http://www.rtp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=pa...fact_sheet.html

That is roughly equal to SP. Thx fro the info moonshield.

A2

Buildings in DT Winston Salem

Wachovia Center - 600,000 sq ft

Winston Tower - 435,927

BB&T HQ - 238,915

GMAC - 501,060

Reynolds American Tower - 266,288

Nissan - 225,676

RJR Plaza - 579,991

Liberty Plaza - 201059

One West 4th - 461491

Brown and Williamson - 165,000

Total - 3,675,407

This is just a few of the many buildings that are located within walking distance of each other in downtown Winston Salem. If I listed them all they would be twice this amount. I rest my case.

It is still less than SP at nearly 4M. That 4M is not including HUGE bldgs that atlrvr included in his post. I uses to work on Assembly street for about three years and can tell you first hand that the Coca Cola bldg and Mearsk Sealand bldg were larger than any other on the street where I was.

A2

Edited by A2

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That is roughly equal to SP. Thx fro the info moonshield.

A2

It is still less than SP at nearly 4M. That 4M is not including HUGE bldgs that atlrvr included in his post. I uses to work on Assembly street for about three years and can tell you first hand that the Coca Cola bldg and Mearsk Sealand bldg were larger than any other on the street where I was.

A2

I did not include a number of buildings either in DT Winston. I stopped counting when it became clear that Winston is bigger than SP. Same for Raleigh, same for Greensboro. I think my point has more than been proven that SP is not the second largest downtown in the Carolinas, far from it.

Edited by metro.m

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I did not include a number of buildings either in DT Winston. I think my point has more than been proven that SP is not the second largest downtown in the Carolinas, far from it.

I am confused you have yet to list numbers higher than what have been posted. We have listed square footage in SP with figures higher than the W-S figures and the Raleigh figures you have posted.

Not to mention many bldgs that are HUGE by square footage terms are not listed in the that `4M figure (ie Coke, PNG, and Mearsk bldg) could be added as well.

How do you figure you reasoning? Show me numbers that are higher.

If Southpark is not the 2nd largest business district than why do so many reports and archives list it as such?

A2

Edited by A2

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Just so you know the Newcomer report is NOT a biased source of info and actually cover all three major metros in NC. Check it out. Why would they put it out there that SP is the 2nd largest when they have nothing to gain. There are also other Corporate Real Estate publications that list SP as 2nd largest. I will look for those as well.

http://www.newcomer.com

^^^the site above is where I go the info.

A2

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Just so you know the Newcomer report is NOT a biased source of info and actually cover all three major metros in NC. Check it out. Why would they put it out there that SP is the 2nd largest when they have nothing to gain. There are also other Corporate Real Estate publications that list SP as 2nd largest. I will look for those as well.

http://www.newcomer.com

^^^the site above is where I go the info.

A2

As I have said, I have heard this said about SP for all the decades that I have lived in Charlotte, yet I have seen it debunked many times by people providing actual numbers. In the Winston Salem numbers I limited my count to buildings that were higher than 15 stories which is a minority of the buildings in WS. If I counted everything, including all of the low rise buildings that are being converted to office and residential space in Winston, it would easily double the number I provided.

There is a similar story in all of the large CBDs in the Carolinas.

Many publications that are put out are poorly written and researched. Let them provide the numbers to prove their claims. They don't have them would be my guess.

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As I have said, I have heard this said about SP for all the decades that I have lived in Charlotte, yet I have seen it debunked many times by people providing actual numbers. In the Winston Salem numbers I limited my count to buildings that were higher than 15 stories which is a minority of the buildings in WS. If I counted everything, including all of the low rise buildings that are being converted to office and residential space in Winston, it would easily double the number I provided.

There is a similar story in all of the large CBDs in the Carolinas.

Many publications that are put out are poorly written and researched. Let them provide the numbers to prove their claims. They don't have them would be my guess.

With all due respect to you metro. I have to disagree. Southpark is more compact and has limited number of higrises, but it still does not change the facts of the listed square footage. I want a report, numbers, or somthing factual that gives me evidence to your reasoning.

I also want to point out that SP picked up a ton of its office space within just the last 7 years. So you might have heard for a decade or more this rumor, but it would not have been true until just recently.

I have listed reports that are not Charlotte publications. Please show me something that I can hang my hat on that will allow me to believe you. Becasue asthetics don't mean squat. If you have a tall skyline that is great, but DC has a ton of square footage of office and they don't have one skyskraper in the district. Southpark is building a ton of mid rises as I type and further more the article today in the CBJ just announced plans for ANOTHER mixed use project including Office and a hotel.

My point is that the roughly 4,000,000 square footage of office currently in SP is a number that is growing. Further more it is NOT including a lot of other buildings that we ALL know about.

With 40K working in the SP district and less than 38K in Raleigh and MUCH less in W-S it is clear to see that there is room to debate this.

A2

Edited by A2

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I have listed reports and reports that are not Charlotte publications. Please show me something that I can hang my hat on that will allow me to believe you. Becasue asthetics don't mean squat. If you have a tall skyline that is great, but DC has a ton of square footage and they don't have one skyskraper in the district.

A2

Read above. I've already given you numbers you can hang your hat on. If you don't believe them, I recommend that you get in the car and drive to Winston and walk around downtown some. It's only about 60 miles away. It far surpasses anything in SouthPark as far as the built environment is concerned.

If you choose not to believe it, then that is your choice, but it does not change what I have said as the numbers don't lie.

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Many publications that are put out are poorly written and researched. Let them provide the numbers to prove their claims. They don't have them would be my guess.

Here is an Inventory Report. You tell me if this is poorly documented

http://www.colliers.com/Content/Repositori..._off_report.pdf

Look at pg 2 of 2 (section 12)

I might be highly underestimating the SP square footage. They have it almost 5,000,000

A2

Read above. I've already given you numbers you can hang your hat on. If you don't believe them, I recommend that you get in the car and drive to Winston and walk around downtown some. It's only about 60 miles away. It far surpasses anything in SouthPark as far as the built environment is concerned.

If you choose not to believe it, then that is your choice, but it does not change what I have said as the numbers don't lie.

If you added Park Road into the mix, which most consider SP area. The total square footage listed would be OVER 6,000,000 Square feet. I have been to W-S and I have bee to Raleigh. I do not want to argue just debate. I don't know why all of a sudden you are taking a nasty tone metro. I am not trying to offend you.

;)

A2

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Raleigh has 3.6 Million according to the same report.

http://www.colliers.com/Content/Repositori...LIGHTS_1q_05.pd

Add the silly gov't bldg's and the privately owned, I really don't care. But don't suggest that Raleigh and W-S blow out SP in total numbers, becasue they don't. Every report I have listed clearly shows this. These are not documents that are wrong since the company running them is in the Business of Corporate Real Estate (one of the largest out the )

Colliers International

A2

Edited by A2

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My tone is not meant to be nasty. I have given you a few 15+ story buildings in Winston because I could easily get the sq/ft for them and I get a number closing in on 4M sq/ft. If I cut that down to 5 stories, which is more what you find SP, then the number would go above 8M sq ft.

SP is not the second largest downtown in the Carolinas or even NC. It's not even close.

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My tone is not meant to be nasty. I have given you a few 15+ story buildings in Winston because I could easily get the sq/ft for them and I get a number closing in on 4M sq/ft. If I cut that down to 5 stories, which is more what you find SP, then the number would go above 8M sq ft.

SP is not the second largest downtown in the Carolinas or even NC. It's not even close.

I will concede, but it is the 2nd largest BUSINESS district.

Read the Colliers Inventory report and get back to me. Those numbers are updated from the 3Q of 05**. This 4.9M of office space is including what is going up now (ie Piedmont).

What it does not list is the projects that are going to break ground next year. (I have information that suggests up to one million additional square feet are coming on line within the next 18 months) Some of that office space was made public today on the front page of the CBJ.

So by this time next year we will be looking at numbers closing in on 6M.Where are numbers that come close to that in Raleigh and W/S?

If so list em'. I am not being nasty, just factual. I will not argue that SP is an Urban Oasis. IT IS NOT. It is nothing like W-S and Raleigh which are very cool cities. It just has more office space than those two, that's all.

**Again the report does NOT list Privately owned Bldgs that would bring that number up quite signifigantly.

A2

Edited by A2

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Those documents have a lot of PDF errors in them so I was not able to look at much of it. But from what I can see, they are only concerned with leasable office space.

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Those documents have a lot of PDF errors in them so I was not able to look at much of it. But from what I can see, they are only concerned with leasable office space.

try colliers.com. Then go to US and choose the state that you want to look at. I am not suggesting that what you are saying is incorrect either. There are a ton of bldg's that are not listed, like the gov't bldg's and the privately owned ones. I am just looking at the listings given the office inventory reports.

I would agree that the cities of Raleigh and W-S are not fair comparisons since the two are laid out like cities and SP is (like you said) more of a Suburban Office area. Another thing that needs to be pointed out is that the SW CLT market is HUGE. I am almost wanting to suggest that since it is considered to be its own sub market, then why is it not being touted as one of the state's largest ? ;)

I don't know. I just wanted to debate for the fun of it since I was bored.

A2

Edited by A2

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