The Next Gulch?: Charlotte Pike/East Bank

[barakat]

Good article in the Ledger: http://www.nashvilleledger.com/editorial/Article.aspx?id=62494

[TNinVB]

Sounds very promising for the area. Nashville seems to have a bright future in development. I wish I could fast forward 15 years lol

[smeagolsfree]

Going to move this to main room. I was going to post it myself but you beat me to the punch. Good job.

They have a lot of great reporting in the Ledger.

[timmay143]

I like this quote.

“I think you’ll see us trying not to sprawl, building sometimes with as much density as possible,” says Mary Roskilly, an architect at Nashville-based Tuck-Hinton Architects. Roskilly says building with more density in commercial and residential cores and saving green space in outlying areas or in parks within the city has taken hold in suburbs and small towns, too.

“So many (communities) like the idea of creating neighborhoods with a tight downtown feel,” Roskilly says. “They may not have readily accepted it 10 years ago, but they’ve seen it work and now they are ready.”

[e-dub]

indeed, that bit made me smile as i read the article yesterday evening.

eric b

[UTgrad09]

I agree that Charlotte Ave seems like the prime candidate for the next "Gulch."

The primary reasons (to me) are visibility & access, and the amount of brownfields in the area.

Unlike East Nashville, Charlotte Ave has more of a "clean slate" to work with. There's not as much to clear or work around, which should make it easier for larger developments (such as OneC1ty) to kick-start growth in the area. It is also in a prime spot, located just a stone's throw west of downtown, adjacent to the major hospital/medical district in midtown (as well as Centennial Park and Vandy), just south of a trio of universities (TSU, Fisk, and Meharry), and down the street from Sylvan Park and West Nashville. It has potential written all over it.

Where I think it will differ from The Gulch is that I think it will be commercial development (like OneC1ty, hopefully) that prompts the boom, rather than the residential/retail development that currently dominates The Gulch. But there is certainly plenty of room for residential development to move in (we've already discussed that the area between West End and Charlotte would be prime for that).

Loved the article, btw. It's great to see other's see what we're seeing.

[BnaBreaker]

Loved the article. Thanks for sharing. But, to be fair, The Gulch isn't even "the next Gulch" yet. It is still a long ways away from being a complete urban neighborhood.

[bwithers1]

Exactly. The Gulch still has a ways to go to fill in the gaps.

As for the East Bank, I saw it referenced but didn't see much content in the article about that. Remember that the East Bank really is the area between I-24 and downtown; East Nashville doesn't really happen until you get past I-24 a ways. I don't see a ton of development happening in the East Bank anytime soon: the parking lots (and the PSC site) are way too valuable as-is right now. Sad but true.

[UTgrad09]

Exactly. The Gulch still has a ways to go to fill in the gaps.

As for the East Bank, I saw it referenced but didn't see much content in the article about that. Remember that the East Bank really is the area between I-24 and downtown; East Nashville doesn't really happen until you get past I-24 a ways. I don't see a ton of development happening in the East Bank anytime soon: the parking lots (and the PSC site) are way too valuable as-is right now. Sad but true.

Agreed. And to add to that (in re: East Nashville), I don't see East Nashville having large scale development like The Gulch any time soon. For one, there's not much in terms of open space (save for the aforementioned East Bank), and two, because of that, you're not really building a new neighborhood from the ground up. There is a thriving, existing neighborhood already there. I think you're more likely to see a number of smaller scale developments a la Germantown/Salemtown (some already happening) than large scale ventures like ICON, Terrazzo, Velocity, Pine Street, 11 North, etc. Maybe another 5th and Main or two, and several 20-50 unit developments.

Of course, that could conceivably change if MDHA decided to completely redo the monstrous block of public housing in Edgefield (easily 200+ acres).

I think we're a distance away from that, though...and as you noted, same goes for the parking lots and scrapyard.

[BnaBreaker]

^^very good points by both of you

[East Side Urbanite]

Charlotte is an odd animal. From the inner-interstate loop to 440, I see immediate potential. From 440 to about 42nd ... that could take at least five years to transform. From 42nd to White Bridge, it's already happening. Again, the "dead spot" is between 440 and about 42nd. It's about a .08-mile stretch of sheer nastiness. Now in five to eight years from now, who knows? The stretch may have been transformed at that point if OneCity and the H.G. Hill property are developed. But between now and, say, 2015 ... I just don't see it.

Having said all that, Charlotte Avenue is not and will not be the Gulch. The Gulch is relatively compact. You can walk from Point A to B to F to Z fairly quickly. In contrast, Charlotte Avenue is very linear with various segments of the stretch that are downright brutalized. It is not very walkable. Indeed, the Gulch is a street-clustered district, whereas Charlotte Avenue is a one-street corridor. Major difference. To be frank, I'm not as high on Charlotte Avenue as a lot of other folks. Now, I do see some nice potential with Charlotte. But some of this talk and these predictions are a bit unrealistic. Charlotte is not going to be even remotely a "poor man's West End Avenue" (and I'm not suggesting some of you are suggesting it is but I do sometimes wonder when I read stories such as those in the Ledger and talk to people about Charlotte's future). No doubt, Charlotte Avenue will improve but only in spots and only over a significant time period.

WW

[nashvylle]

To be honest, I see a lot more potential along Church Street. Being Nashville's most gay friendly neighborhood, I could see church street becoming a miny Chelsea as Nashville becomes more progessive and accepting.

With 11 North nearby, I could see many low rises go up in that area.

[nashvillwill]

^^^ I feel like Church St is pretty built out. Maybe a few plots could be rehabbed, but I can't think of many plots where new development could go. I'm very happy that there is a place in Nashville that the gay community can call home, but I just don't see Church as "untapped potential". Hayes st is a different story.

[smeagolsfree]

I have been thinking for a while that the Charlotte corridor has a ton of potential. A lot of cheaper property between 440 and 42nd for sure. It is a matter of time before it takes off. William disagrees with me on this one but I think the potential is there. It will take only a couple of pioneers to be the first to step out and take the plunge. I think the Climb Nashville project may be the first of many projects to happen in the area.

[East Side Urbanite]

To be honest, I see a lot more potential along Church Street. Being Nashville's most gay friendly neighborhood, I could see church street becoming a miny Chelsea as Nashville becomes more progessive and accepting.

With 11 North nearby, I could see many low rises go up in that area.

Agree. WW

[East Side Urbanite]

I have been thinking for a while that the Charlotte corridor has a ton of potential. A lot of cheaper property between 440 and 42nd for sure. It is a matter of time before it takes off. William disagrees with me on this one but I think the potential is there. It will take only a couple of pioneers to be the first to step out and take the plunge. I think the Climb Nashville project may be the first of many projects to happen in the area.

I always make the distinction between the Charlotte stretch between 440 and 42nd (which could take years to land, say, four or five new buildings and various new businesses) and the other two stretches, one of which (from the inner-interstate loop to 440 has already gotten new infill) and the other of which (from 42nd to White Bridge) has landed lots of new businesses.

Again, does anybody really think the segment of Charlotte between 440 and 42nd is going to get lots of infill construction during the next three years or so? I just don't see it. The Hill project at 42nd/railroad tracks could help in the effort, but ... I'm not saying the reinvention of this Charlotte segment won't happen. I just don't anticipate it happening any time soon. Now, again, in five to eight years, ... yes, it could.

WW

[ariesjow]

I think we will need to see both the section of Charlotte around Richland Park and the section between downtown and 440 take off before we will see much of anything happen to the the unfortunate stretch between the railroads and 440. That is going to really take some time, but perhaps it can be jump-started with a few more pioneers like Climb Nashville. Sylvan Heights and Historic West Town have started to really improve and get some spillover from Sylvan Park. So there is some potential there. It just may take a really long time before its fully realized. I actually feel like the stretch of Charlotte in between White Bridge and Nashville West may be the most hopeless stretch. That mile or so could really benefit from some sidewalks and streetscape improvements.

There is good potential for all the streets in between Charlotte and West End in Midtown. This area could become really popular once WES rises. In the coming years, I expect this area to start seeing a mixture of small to mid-sized residential projects on streets like Hayes and State. We should also see more small offices lining Charlotte and maybe a few apartment projects. I agree that Church is mostly built out, but there are still a handful of empty or under-utilized lots that are ripe for redevelopment. The huge Jim Reed building at the corner of 16th and Church could be rehabbed into a truly special mixed-use project with maybe some restaurants and shops with some offices above. Does anyone know if that structure is in use at all?

[timmay143]

I think that by next Gulch, it is meant that it could see crazy growth as one of our areas of town making a rebound/revitalization like we've seem with the East Nashville, 8th and 12th S, SoBro and RMH, German-Salemtown, Hillsboro Villiage, etc. I really have no clue what could happen as I am not as familiar with the corridor. I doubt we'll see very large scale buildings like the Gulch, but I will take a shot and say I can see it being more of a smaller scale residential and retail/commercial but in a larger area than say 12th/8th S. We'll see. It's going to be a good ride in the next decade to see other areas like this evolve.

For the East Bank, I don't know. That is an enigma. Has lots of potential, but a few setbacks which could hold it back for several years. Good news is the Cumberland Park and riverfront revitalization in the area.

[Nathan_in_DC]

In addition to the aforementioned reasons that a large stretch of Charlotte will not be developed heavily in the next few years, I believe there is one other very important reason: Nashville already has a plethora of "up and coming" neighborhoods that are seeing a huge amount of development and reinvestment. I'm not sure many more are sustainable, especially on the scale of a major redevelopment of Charlotte.

[nashvillwill]

^^^thats exactly why I would like to see some smaller infill projects along Charlotte. No Icon type buildings, but more in the line of 2-3 story developments. Ground level retail, with 1 or two floors of mixed use above. As long as they front the street, I think these smaller developments would be great.

I don't really expect, or want Charlotte to be "another West End", but more of a corridor of true urban, walkable, fabric. A district for the creative class.

[timmay143]

Yup, I tend to agree, I think we're on the right track of how this area might (and probably) develop. Smaller scale (maybe as large as Ellingston, but that's the upper limit), urban, dense, etc. The time table is up in the air for me. I tend to lean towards a more slow, yet steady pace.

[bwithers1]

^^^ I feel like Church St is pretty built out. Maybe a few plots could be rehabbed, but I can't think of many plots where new development could go. I'm very happy that there is a place in Nashville that the gay community can call home, but I just don't see Church as "untapped potential". Hayes st is a different story.

First of all, Church Street isn't Nashville's most "gay friendly neighborhood," if for no other reason than it isn't really a neighborhood. It's a commercial district that right now is a pass-through between Downtown and the Elliston Place/West End area. It does have a collection of gay bars, but so does South Nashville.

Part of the problem with Church Street seems to be that pass-through nature. Retail barely survives on Church Street unless it is geared toward the medical industry, what with the hospitals down the street. So much retail on Church Street has failed, that it will take a lot to get it going to overcome that inertia. Even the restaurants on Church Street seem to be dead other than the lunch rush.

There are lots of buildings that could be great if fixed up and re-used (particularly the Jim Reed building, but there are others, also the massive, underbuilt and underutilized Bank of America parking lot). But right now there is not enough there in terms of retail or even nighlife to lure in people from Elliston 23 or whatever is developing at that end of the street up toward the interstate. There is too much competition on Elliston itself or on West End. That could all change, but I think that the residential is going to have to come to the 1500-2000 blocks of Church Street (at least nearby on Hayes or State) first.

Having said that, Church Street could remain in a holding pattern, or people could start acquiring parcels over there (particularly the hideous 2-story apartment buildings or the preservation worthy but run down Victorian houses), so that it could be Gulch-like in maybe the next cycle or two, after every remaining parcel is used up in the Elliston area, but I don't look for any sizeable office/retail growth on Church during this cycle. The construction of the Hutton Hotel garage did more to damage the restaurants on Hayes Street than to help them, so I'm not necessarily optimistic for the WES or other developments in terms of helping Church Street or Hayes Street near-term.

[nashveit]

I agree - I think the comparison to The Gulch was more about the "next big thing" rather than the overall character of The Gulch. Charlotte does face a lot of challenges, and I agree, it's going to take some time to get there, but I think we're on the cusp of the tipping point. There are a lot of factors driving Charlotte to the forefront: the new connector, the highly anticiapted NW/Boyle development, OneC1ty, new restaurants, etc. Obviously the two sections that have the potential to develop quickly are around Richland Park/46th, where we have seen a recent surge (Nuvo, Headquarters, and ML Rose) and the medical district (hoping to see OneC1ty break ground soon). The area between 440 and 42nd will be aided by the new gymnastics center and Climb Nashville's new building, but the dominance of used car lots and automobile based businesses are a huge obstacle. The stretch between WB and Nashville West also suffers from the same problems (not to mention the myriad strip malls that plague this area). I think Nashvillwill's thoughts are spot on - I think what we'll see is a lot of low rise mixed use infill, which is what I hope we will see at the corner of 46th/Charlotte very soon (notorious church property). Charlotte's time is way overdue, it's good to see it finally catching some attention.

[Nathan_in_DC]

Yup, I tend to agree, I think we're on the right track of how this area might (and probably) develop. Smaller scale (maybe as large as Ellingston, but that's the upper limit), urban, dense, etc. The time table is up in the air for me. I tend to lean towards a more slow, yet steady pace.

Slow and steady is the key. Cities like Nashville have to be very careful with development, lest they run the risk of overloading the market with new apartments and driving rents down to unsustainable low levels. We're not there yet, but if we get too much stock too quickly, then the market could be suppressed for a long period of time. If that happens, at the end of ten or fifteen years the city with the steady growth is likely to have more of it overall than one that suffers from a boom and bust cycle.

By marketing every neighborhood as the next (insert currently popular neighborhood) and developing them along the lines of said currently popular neighborhood, then it will become top heavy quickly.

[East Side Urbanite]

In addition to the aforementioned reasons that a large stretch of Charlotte will not be developed heavily in the next few years, I believe there is one other very important reason: Nashville already has a plethora of "up and coming" neighborhoods that are seeing a huge amount of development and reinvestment. I'm not sure many more are sustainable, especially on the scale of a major redevelopment of Charlotte.

Perfectly said.

WW