NORA (North Orange Residential Apartments)

[CaptainJustice]

That's a little harsh considering our current economy does not support office or condo development at the moment. Downtown Orlando is classified as having a rapid population growth, however, we lack housing that truly reflects the average income. Developments like NORA all boil down to the opportunity to live as close to downtown as possible while still remaining within the realm of affordability. Why else would someone choose to live at Steel House? Steel House is located at one of the noisiest intersections with views of traffic on Orange Ave/Colonial Dr, but instead the developers will coo about the salt water pool & the circuit training gym setup. People are going to live at that intersection because they can't afford to live within the downtown core, so they compromise by forming a balance of: 1) Proximity to downtown and 2) Having nicer finishes and decent amenities (read: updated apartment when compared to some of the older apartments within the core). The average salary in Orlando for 2011 was about 39,000. If you live within your means you should only spend a maximum of 25% of your income towards rent @ $800-850/month plus another 5% on utilities (not including cable, etc). This is why you see people shacking up with roommates to afford rent at 55W, Paramount, the Vue etc. They want a nice pad, but in order to afford it they have to compromise on privacy by sharing units. I think income is the reason why a highrise would not have worked in the Uptown location, because someone willing to spend more $$ to live in a highrise would likely want to live within the d/t core and be able to walk to their destinations, etc. Indiscriminately plopping down highrises where there is no demand is basically the equivalent of building Chinese ghost cities.

 

I like the North Orange/Uptown designation because it speaks of the actual location. Keep the acronym "NORA" but reconfigure the components to reflect the location (North ORange Ave) and that could give the neighborhood an edge (like Tribeca in NYC). I also like South Ivanhoe Village. The Ivanhoe Village boundary of the Main Street program terminates just north of NORA and could extend to encompass that little strip of land.

This entire time I thought "NORA" was North Orage Resedential Area...

[JFW657]

The logic this Owen Beitsch guy uses seems a bit specious. Just because people have cars does not mean they would prefer to drive somewhere to get something that they could walk to & get, if that thing were within walking distance. I think most people who choose to live in downtown areas do so because they like the idea of leaving their cars at home & walking places. Orlando is still a city where a car is an utter necessity, but something that most people would rather not use if they didn't absolutely have to.

[spenser1058]

The logic this Owen Beitsch guy uses seems a bit specious. Just because people have cars does not mean they would prefer to drive somewhere to get something that they could walk to & get, if that thing were within walking distance. I think most people who choose to live in downtown areas do so because they like the idea of leaving their cars at home & walking places. Orlando is still a city where a car is an utter necessity, but something that most people would rather not use if they didn't absolutely have to.

 You're absolutely right, but therein is the problem. Instead of figuring out ways to get actual retail so that people do not in fact NEED a car and have more disposable income by the savings of not having one, these developers are using those resources to attach not insubstantial parking garages. There was a huge debate in the initial redevelopment phase of downtown in the 1980's about this - Mayor Bill refused to follow the pleas of then Orange County Commission Chairman Lou Treadway (in a fascinating turnabout of usual roles) and limit the construction of garages downtown. It led to the long delay of meaningful transit alternatives and is quite likely to reduce ridership on SunRail (although if the I4 rebuild gets under way, it may make traffic so bad that it achieves the same result as restricted parking.)

 

But the bottom line is that, in a moderate income region like Orlando and with a primary demographic for downtown of younger folks (read, under 40 and renting), the investment required to purchase and maintain an automobile will slow its progress. Not to mention the fact that you are not building the alternative lifestyle downtown is supposed to be - just because Sarah Palin is no longer in the limelight, there's no reason to put lipstick on this pig and give us another version of, um, Uptown Altamonte (and at least Altamonte has the mall.) We have plenty of suburbs to choose from - the vision for downtown was supposed to be completely different. What's happening north of Orange is not moving us toward that vision, but imho moving us in the other direction.

 

For me, the bottom line is that we are looking at almost 35 years of building a walkable downtown and we are further from the goal now than when we started. Why is that? Will this version of development get us closer? If not, then this new construction moves that day several more decades into the future, if ever.

[JFW657]

 You're absolutely right, but therein is the problem. Instead of figuring out ways to get actual retail so that people do not in fact NEED a car and have more disposable income by the savings of not having one, these developers are using those resources to attach not insubstantial parking garages. There was a huge debate in the initial redevelopment phase of downtown in the 1980's about this - Mayor Bill refused to follow the pleas of then Orange County Commission Chairman Lou Treadway (in a fascinating turnabout of usual roles) and limit the construction of garages downtown. It led to the long delay of meaningful transit alternatives and is quite likely to reduce ridership on SunRail (although if the I4 rebuild gets under way, it may make traffic so bad that it achieves the same result as restricted parking.)

 

But the bottom line is that, in a moderate income region like Orlando and with a primary demographic for downtown of younger folks (read, under 40 and renting), the investment required to purchase and maintain an automobile will slow its progress. Not to mention the fact that you are not building the alternative lifestyle downtown is supposed to be - just because Sarah Palin is no longer in the limelight, there's no reason to put lipstick on this pig and give us another version of, um, Uptown Altamonte (and at least Altamonte has the mall.) We have plenty of suburbs to choose from - the vision for downtown was supposed to be completely different. What's happening north of Orange is not moving us toward that vision, but imho moving us in the other direction.

 

For me, the bottom line is that we are looking at almost 35 years of building a walkable downtown and we are further from the goal now than when we started. Why is that? Will this version of development get us closer? If not, then this new construction moves that day several more decades into the future, if ever.

I don't think you can force the type of change you speak of. The kind of city you're talking about Orlando becoming is something that has to evolve over time. Putting up highrises without including adequate parking would just result in empty highrises & more Maitland Centers. Orlando is like a young Atlanta or Los Angeles. People are going to be driving cars for a long time to come & you have to work within that reality. A pedestrian friendly downtown with adequate retail depends upon a lot of things. Making downtown an automobile-free zone meant only for people who live there or within walking distance would discourage people from outlying areas from coming there. People who live outside downtown want to go there too & denying access to adequate parking would discourage that.

[prahaboheme]

Did anyone else catch this from the article:

 

"In addition to apartment projects planned for the North Quarter, Ustler said he plans to announce a 15,000 square foot office building at 800 N. Orange.  He would not disclose lease information but said three "good local tenants" would each anchor a floor there."

 

The lot he is referring to was initially proposed as condos.  According to his website, it will be a 4-story infill structure (wedged between Uptown Place and Sleet House):  https://maps.google.com/maps?q=800+N+Orange+Ave,+Orlando,+FL&hl=en&sll=42.036922,-71.683501&sspn=2.313165,5.410767&oq=800+&t=h&hnear=800+N+Orange+Ave,+Orlando,+Orange,+Florida&z=16

[Xander]

Did anyone else catch this from the article:

 

"In addition to apartment projects planned for the North Quarter, Ustler said he plans to announce a 15,000 square foot office building at 800 N. Orange.  He would not disclose lease information but said three "good local tenants" would each anchor a floor there."

 

The lot he is referring to was initially proposed as condos.  According to his website, it will be a 4-story infill structure (wedged between Uptown Place and Sleet House):  https://maps.google.com/maps?q=800+N+Orange+Ave,+Orlando,+FL&hl=en&sll=42.036922,-71.683501&sspn=2.313165,5.410767&oq=800+&t=h&hnear=800+N+Orange+Ave,+Orlando,+Orange,+Florida&z=16

I caught that. I wonder what's going to go there. Bet a little money that it'll be something retail related, though.

[jack]

To get the retail that you desire, Downtown is going to have to grow big time. Take the population within the boundaries of the 408, Ivanhoe, I/4 and Summerlin, and double it. I will bet we will get the retail and alternative transportation options that we need. 

 

Most retail is either locally population based, or destination. We still are not there in terms of population. A lot of our bars serve as destination retail because they draw from all over the region. But everyday retail needs more people locally working and living in close proximity. 

 

Do not fret about the number of new apartments in the north quarter. New people means new voters. Voters demand services. When no one lived downtown, you had to count on workers and a few residents to drive change. Now, 1,200 new residents will demand a Lymmo expansion, pedestrian connections across Colonial, greater police presence, and a new approach to the homeless. We are taking a great step forward  Besides, I always thought apartments were better then condos Downtown. During the boom years, I worried how many people were going to actually live in the condos. I don't worry as much about apartments. 

[prahaboheme]

I like the way you think!

[spenser1058]

I agree with you - density is good. But here's the thing - a lot of retail is habit. Once upon a time, most of Orlando shopped downtown because that was mostly their only choice (there were a few stores in Colonialtown, downtown WP had shopping, as did downtown WG and, further out, downtown Sanford, but that was pretty much it.) Over the years, with the addition of Colonial Plaza/OFS, those habits changed, and by the mid to late 1970's, downtown was left for dead. 

 

For almost 40 years, no one has thought of coming downtown to shop (even the Church Street Market/Exchange relied mostly on tourist traffic which evaporated with the demise of CSS.)

 

In this decade, the dynamic switched again, with the lower-end shoppers sorting out to the big boxes and the higher-end and aspirational ones driving to Millenia and Florida Mall. Of course, the move online affects this as well and my guess is the younger demographic probably will do even more of their shopping online than older folks (just as we see the chief split in voting patterns, ownership of vehicles and selection of housing based increasingly on age cohort.)

 

What is vital (and probably is my biggest concern for why this should happen now,) is that north of Colonial (NoC) has the biggest opportunity to reflect the opportunities downtown. First of all, there is the space. I am convinced based on the everything I've seen that retailers aren't going to be shoehorned in oddly-designed, discrete spaces such as have been haphazardly included on the ground floor of buildings downtown. So, we need a place for them to cluster. NoC at the moment has that space. Next, OFS is reaching the end of its life. The easy decision for retailers not from the area to just go with a refit there. Once they do, they will be much less likely to think about relocating west. Now, that won't matter if you go with the status quo and make all the folks downtown and NoC buy a car. But our goal is the opposite. Once these folks become auto-centric, those habits are likely to last a lifetime.

 

Meanwhile, as far as population to support retail goes, it's not just downtown. All those folks in College Park, Spring Lake, Delaney Park, etc., have been supporting retail on East Colonial for decades. The goal now is just to get them to support the retail a couple of miles west, which they did before the 1970's.

 

I truly believe the habits being made now will affect whether or not we achieve the goal of a walkable downtown for at least a generation. And not only Orlando is challenged by this: one can read of this same struggle playing out in downtowns across the Sun Belt from Charlotte to Phoenix. We have an opportunity to lead the way, but only if we have the courage to, in the words of William F. Buckley, Jr., "stand athwart (recent) history, yeliing 'Stop!' " to the same old way of doing things in development. 

 

I recognize I have beat this old horse to death and so I shall, to the relief of all our fine chatters, leave it be from this point. I appreciate everyone's patience in indulging my great quest over the past 30 years of downtown as the one opportunity for central Florida to achieve a neighborhood where one's every need can be fulfilled without an automobile.

[JFW657]

 

 

What is vital (and probably is my biggest concern for why this should happen now,) is that north of Colonial (NoC)

 

 

How about NoCo?

 

Or better yet, NoDo?

[prahaboheme]

I still think the greatest opportunity for a retail cluster remains CSS.  It worked in the 90s to a degree (as spencer has mentioned); the Exchange space can be retrofitted to a mall-style building, and the surrounding streets, Church, Pine, Orange, can support street front shops.  There is also the parking lot North of the Exchange that could easily become and extension/expansion of retail.  It is visible from I-4 and within a block of most important downtown venues/attractions.

 

Once this takes hold, it begins to spill out from there (similar to Providence Place in RI).

[spenser1058]

I still think the greatest opportunity for a retail cluster remains CSS.  It worked in the 90s to a degree (as spencer has mentioned); the Exchange space can be retrofitted to a mall-style building, and the surrounding streets, Church, Pine, Orange, can support street front shops.  There is also the parking lot North of the Exchange that could easily become and extension/expansion of retail.  It is visible from I-4 and within a block of most important downtown venues/attractions.

 

Once this takes hold, it begins to spill out from there (similar to Providence Place in RI).

Thanks for this. It is, of course the perfect solution. If this ever happened I could die happy on the day it opened.

[sunshine]

Once upon a time, there were Hooters, Friday, Burger King, Brookstone, (Structure?)...in downtown...

[JFW657]

Once upon a time, there were Hooters, Friday, Burger King, Brookstone, (Structure?)...in downtown...

Sharper Image, Sam Goody, Black Market Minerals, Mrs. Fields Cookies, Benetton, etc., etc., etc.

I still think the greatest opportunity for a retail cluster remains CSS.  It worked in the 90s to a degree (as spencer has mentioned); the Exchange space can be retrofitted to a mall-style building, and the surrounding streets, Church, Pine, Orange, can support street front shops.  There is also the parking lot North of the Exchange that could easily become and extension/expansion of retail.  It is visible from I-4 and within a block of most important downtown venues/attractions.

 

Once this takes hold, it begins to spill out from there (similar to Providence Place in RI).

As I recall, that's what it started out as, more or less.

[John Hargrove]

I've been in the exchange a lot recently (we hosted an event out of there and were approached about leasing space another time). It definitely feels like a mall. I can't imagine it being anything else.

[sunshine]

I think the entire exchange should be a Macy's...but at this point...I will even take a JC Penny....and maybe an urban walmart in PArramore...

 

But, lets go back to Nora. Since I dont live in the area...the original Verde is much more appealing to me.

 

You would think that since all these projects come out around the same time....they should have coordinate with each other to make it a true neighbourhood with retails..but that would be too much to expect from the City of Orlando

[CaptainJustice]

I think the entire exchange should be a Macy's...but at this point...I will even take a JC Penny....and maybe an urban walmart in PArramore...

 

But, lets go back to Nora. Since I dont live in the area...the original Verde is much more appealing to me.

 

You would think that since all these projects come out around the same time....they should have coordinate with each other to make it a true neighbourhood with retails..but that would be too much to expect from the City of Orlando

The verde was the twin condo proposal right? I think..

[gibby]

Not to stay off topic but I did notice recently that there were banners at the entrances to the Exchange that read "The Exchange" and they looked new.  Are they new and is that part of a plan to add some stuff inside?

[Jernigan]

There is a topic (or multiple threads) for Church Street Station

[Xander]

Took this today to get a better overhead view of progress. It's going very well. They closed Marks St in front of Uptown Place for a few days to install utilities to the site, and it's now back open. 

Grr. It's so difficult to just post a full-sized pic on this site...

[spenser1058]

In all our discussions about what to call the area north of Colonial (midtown, uptown, North Quarter, etc.), I had to laugh at this exchange going on over in the Charlotte room about their downtown (which it seems is called Uptown):

 

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php/topic/51204-charlotte-wishlist-scorecard/page-4

[JFW657]

The only logical name is NoDo. SoDo..... NoDo.

[bulldogger]

NoDo?  Think about what that says.  No  Do   or also stated Do Not.

[spenser1058]

How 'bout No-Doz - Orlando's 24/7 wide-eyed district!

[JFW657]

NoDo?  Think about what that says.  No  Do   or also stated Do Not.

 

Well, I'm certain it will end up being called whatever it ends up being called, our suggestions notwithstanding.

 

But I have to say, I can't really envision many people while hanging out downtown, saying to themselves...

 

"Gee whiz, I'd love to head north of Colonial Drive, but because of that darned ol' nickname, I just can't do it!!!! It seems to be telling me not to!!!!"    

 

 

 

 

How 'bout No-Doz - Orlando's 24/7 wide-eyed district!

 

 

 

Now that has possibilities!!!!