Inside 440 - Berry Hill, Midtown, Vanderbilt, 12S, WeHo, Fairgrounds, etc.

[MLBrumby]

So so so.... disappointing.

[12Mouth]

47 minutes ago, MLBrumby said:

So so so.... disappointing.

I mean, my reaction to the architecture was “meh”, but I’m a little surprised by the extent of the hating here. You have a college campus putting forward a 7-10 story mixed use building with 30k sq ft of grocery space. The green space is behind the buildings. You’ll have street activation and a super wide walk/bike path going from this parcel all the way to Hillsboro Village, which is huge. The rest of the land Vandy owns between here and 21st is surface parking or super ugly architecture. Why not extend campus?
 

Noshville was vacant, the redevelopment of the JJ’s building was always in doubt. Buckingham, across the street, may be the ugliest development inside 440 in the last decade. 
 

Is this great? No, but it is fine and is not destroying midtown. It also makes perfect sense for Vanderbilt.

[MLBrumby]

I get your point but when people think of vandy they want to think of high quality. This is not high quality urban development.  It’s the equivalent of saying ‘we have bought up all this midtown land. Let’s put up some bland suburban style buildings with some of the popular buzzwords right now... greenway, LEED, street activation, etc. for the least amount possible. Meanwhile the valu of this land can only go up and up till we figure out what to do with it.’

[titanhog]

I just wish there was something different going on that land.  I don't like it being Vandy land.  I'd rather it be more commercial / retail / hotels / apartments / bars / etc.

[bnacincy]

7 minutes ago, titanhog said:

I just wish there was something different going on that land.  I don't like it being Vandy land.  I'd rather it be more commercial / retail / hotels / apartments / bars / etc.

My point exactly....Vandy needs more high rises and below grade parking on its own campus

[BnaBreaker]

I've always hoped that Vanderbilt would start integrating itself more into the community and urban fabric surrounding it rather than being the somewhat insular fenced off campus it has been in years past, so I'm actually happy to see this development.  I'm not saying I want them to take over Midtown or anything, but it is nice to see them participating in the urban revolution taking place in Nashville.  It's also true that this development is not what anyone would call exciting architecture by any means.  However, I fail to see what is "suburban" or "low quality" about it myself.  Perhaps I'm missing something because to me it appears to check most of the boxes I'm looking for?  Personally, it reminds me of some of the newer developments in Cambridge, Mass which is a very high quality urban environment.  It provides much needed green space, residential density and ample retail space while being built up to the street and massively improving the surrounding infrastructure.  I can understand if this isn't the preferred usage of this land for some folks, but I don't see how it won't be a net positive development for that immediate area, which by the way, really needs cleaning up at street level. 

Edited October 12, 2019 by BnaBreaker

[12Mouth]

15 hours ago, titanhog said:

I just wish there was something different going on that land.  I don't like it being Vandy land.  I'd rather it be more commercial / retail / hotels / apartments / bars / etc.

I understand, but Vandy is literally putting in one mixed use development and may put in a second. There are like 30 bars already within a few blocks, and the graduate housing is apartments and retail being built and operated by a private developer. Outside of building higher, what is the difference? If they succeed in bringing a grocery, I think it would be far more helpful to the neighborhood than more bars.

[titanhog]

12 minutes ago, 12Mouth said:

I understand, but Vandy is literally putting in one mixed use development and may put in a second. There are like 30 bars already within a few blocks, and the graduate housing is apartments and retail being built and operated by a private developer. Outside of building higher, what is the difference? If they succeed in bringing a grocery, I think it would be far more helpful to the neighborhood than more bars.

Things I like:  1. We won't have to wait years for something to be built.  2. There will be some retail.

Things I don't like:  1. Bad Vandy architecture vs. what is being built along West End.  Looks outdated.  2. Vandy buying up an area that would eventually become a really, cool diverse residential / hotel / restaurant / business area (public) as that area continues to develop and putting their own private grad school apartments and adding in some retail / grocery (I just feel what the public would eventually build there would be better for the future of the area).  3. I don't like Vandy continually spreading outward.  Once they own the land, it lessens the potential usage in the future by any public entity.

[NashWellington11]

Agreed. Once Vandy owns a property (especially any land that is contiguous to the core campus) the chances of that property ever being sold (even if a sale would lead to its highest and best use) are slim to none.

Vandy may ground lease it on a 100 year ground lease (see 2525 West End) but they will NOT sell it. A ground lease like that then begins to limit the type and quality of developments that are viable for the site and limits financing options. 

[MLBrumby]

Do you know if Vandy owns the property directly across West End from the old gym (admissions office) near the corner of 23rd Avenue? I despise the one-story strip shopping center with front parking lot (w/ Gamestop et.al.). Somewhere I'd heard that Vandy did one of those 100-year lease arrangements, but don't know how reliable the source was. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by MLBrumby

[smeagolsfree]

46 minutes ago, MLBrumby said:

Do you know if Vandy owns the property directly across West End from the old gym (admissions office) near the corner of 23rd Avenue? I despise the one-story strip shopping center with front parking lot (w/ Gamestop et.al.). Somewhere I'd heard that Vandy did one of those 100-year lease arrangements, but don't know how reliable the source was. 

Nope they dont. Parcel viewer.

Parcel ID:	09215014900
	View in AssessPro
	View Tax Record
Parcel Address:	2304 WEST END AVE NASHVILLE, TN 37203
Owner:	WEST END LAND DEV. CO., L.P.
Acquired Date:	6/20/1994
Sale Price:	$ 3,412,432.00
Sale Instrument:	DB-00009386 0000950
Mailing Address:	3309 FAIRMONT DR C/O GRACE DEV INC NASHVILLE,TN 37203
Legal Description:	LOT 1 RESUB WEST END DEVELOPMENT CO.,L.P. PROPERTY

[AronG]

On 10/11/2019 at 10:31 PM, 12Mouth said:

... You’ll have street activation and a super wide walk/bike path going from this parcel all the way to Hillsboro Village, which is huge. ...

Where's the super wide walk/bike path? You just mean the campus green?

[12Mouth]

Just now, AronG said:

Where's the super wide walk/bike path? You just mean the campus green?

No - the walk and roll loop that will be coming (gradually, in pieces, around the edge of campus). The full connection around campus will take years. They'll also be building greenways through the middle of campus (potentially eventually connecting to grad housing). 

[12Mouth]

3 hours ago, NashWellington11 said:

Agreed. Once Vandy owns a property (especially any land that is contiguous to the core campus) the chances of that property ever being sold (even if a sale would lead to its highest and best use) are slim to none.

Vandy may ground lease it on a 100 year ground lease (see 2525 West End) but they will NOT sell it. A ground lease like that then begins to limit the type and quality of developments that are viable for the site and limits financing options. 

I see your point and I don't really disagree with any of this (you are certainly correct about not selling land), but I also think there are advantages to both. Developers are constrained by ROI and financing that can limit the availability of green space and materials used. I would also argue that the Buckingham development is far uglier than Vandy grad housing, so you never know what you are going to get. But institutions can also wall themselves off and create spaces that are not for the public. This is bad. It seems like Vanderbilt is trying to turn their campus into a giant park and open it up to the public. To the extent that this is what they are doing, I fully support it, even if some of the architecture leaves something to be desired (I actually really like the new buildings on West End).

They are also systematically eliminating surface parking and turning much of it into green space, closing roads and building greenways, and are actively partnering with the city to create a less car-dependent Nashville. This would be difficult, if not impossible, for a private developer to pull off at this scale. To me, all of this is more important than more tall glass (or worse, stucco) boxes, which is what many lots seem to be turning into these days (but shout out to 2012 and the Graduate, which are great examples of what private development can do). 

[Neigeville2]

1 hour ago, 12Mouth said:

...I would also argue that the Buckingham development is far uglier than Vandy grad housing, ...

To each his own, but it is literally incomprehensible to me that anyone could hold this opinion.

[12Mouth]

1 hour ago, Neigeville2 said:

To each his own, but it is literally incomprehensible to me that anyone could hold this opinion.

Haha. Totally possible that I’m the only one in the world who feels this way. The hotel is fine To me, but the residential component looks like some Disney experiment gone wrong.

[MidTenn1]

The 'final design rendering' for the 17th & Grand project on Music Row. From David Wells.

[BnaBreaker]

Pretty slick!

[titanhog]

I want to hate it because it's taking up space on Music Row...but wow!  That's really nice!

[markhollin]

Edge Midtown (6 stories, 146 units) at 301 22nd Ave. North, which opened in 2015, just sold for $33.7 million to an undisclosed buyer.  The developer, I&G 2200 State out of Chicago, bought the land for $2.1 million in 2013 and built the project within two years.  The sale  works out to about $23,500 per unit. 

https://www.nashvillepost.com/business/development/article/21093118/midtown-apartment-building-sells-for-337m

 

[bnacincy]

On 10/16/2019 at 10:03 PM, PHofKS said:

The 'final design rendering' for the 17th & Grand project on Music Row. From David Wells.

A few buildings like this on Music Row would help keep growing companies on Music Row instead of heading someplace like the Gulch.

Now if someone would follow up on the idea of a Music Row Village with a little bit of retail, dining and maybe a live music venue...a relocated Blue Bird Cafe, perhaps?

[titanhog]

2 hours ago, bnacincy said:

A few buildings like this on Music Row would help keep growing companies on Music Row instead of heading someplace like the Gulch.

Now if someone would follow up on the idea of a Music Row Village with a little bit of retail, dining and maybe a live music venue...a relocated Blue Bird Cafe, perhaps?

The ultimate issue with Music Row really isn't keeping the large companies there (like the record labels)...it's keeping the college campus-like vibe that having dozens of small houses that operate as publishing companies where songwriters create music.  That can't be done as well in these office towers.  Songwriters / studios need separation...and office buildings don't work.  So...building these large buildings displaces the music creators.

If they really want to get creative, they'll have to think of ways to provide small, separated buildings for publishers / songwriters....but I doubt they could do it at prices that would be needed.

[henburg]

1 hour ago, titanhog said:

The ultimate issue with Music Row really isn't keeping the large companies there (like the record labels)...it's keeping the college campus-like vibe that having dozens of small houses that operate as publishing companies where songwriters create music.  That can't be done as well in these office towers.  Songwriters / studios need separation...and office buildings don't work.  So...building these large buildings displaces the music creators.

If they really want to get creative, they'll have to think of ways to provide small, separated buildings for publishers / songwriters....but I doubt they could do it at prices that would be needed.

I'd fully support action being taken to preserve this. Perhaps something similar to what they do in Downtown Franklin? I can't remember which organization does it exactly, I think the Downtown Franklin Association, but essentially the group owns property along the main square and seeks out only local companies as tenants for the historic buildings.  These local companies then pay a reduced lease in order to make it affordable while simultaneously making sure big companies don't come in and ruin the small town soul of the place. It would likely be much more difficult now with Nashville's high real estate prices, but I feel like it would definitely be worth doing whatever it takes to preserve the area. 

[titanhog]

12 minutes ago, henburg said:

I'd fully support action being taken to preserve this. Perhaps something similar to what they do in Downtown Franklin? I can't remember which organization does it exactly, I think the Downtown Franklin Association, but essentially the group owns property along the main square and seeks out only local companies as tenants for the historic buildings.  These local companies then pay a reduced lease in order to make it affordable while simultaneously making sure big companies don't come in and ruin the small town soul of the place. It would likely be much more difficult now with Nashville's high real estate prices, but I feel like it would definitely be worth doing whatever it takes to preserve the area. 

The hard part about it is that most people don't see anything "historic" in a bunch of old bungalows...so they can't wrap their heads around why those can't be replaced with something larger and more modern and then "set aside" X amount of space for writers / publishers.  Then you have people who own the bungalows and they're being offered crazy money they can't pass up.  

All in all...I think the "campus" vibe is all but gone now.  I don't think it can be brought back in that area.  It's kinda like building skyscrapers in the middle of a farming community and wondering why the little town doesn't feel like a little town anymore.

People will still create music in this town...but it won't be as centralized as it once was.  Hopefully Music Row doesn't become non-music in 20 years.

[MLBrumby]

It looks like the new tower at Vandy has reached the same height of Carmichael Towers... +/- a few feet. Around 13 floors poured and 7 to go, this baby's going to have quite the presence on West End.