Davidson East: East Nashville, Inglewood, Madison, Donelson, Hermitage, Old Hickory

[Rockatansky]

23 hours ago, bwithers1 said:

drive-through window

Ewww. Not appropriate in an urban neighborhood IMO.

[WebberThomas4]

1 hour ago, Rockatansky said:

Ewww. Not appropriate in an urban neighborhood IMO.

Is it possible they are reusing all or even a portion of the old Cizar’s building that already has a drive thru?

Edited September 14, 2018 by WebberThomas4
Spelling

[DJIII]

On 9/13/2018 at 3:59 PM, bwithers1 said:

Yes, the current site on the Eastwood side of Gallatin is also suburban-style strip center, albeit a possibly historic one (and the much-loved Cizar's was a former gas station not too long ago).  But the redesigned site plan will be a little bit more suburban than what had originally been proposed for the Hill Center Greenwood.  Not moreso than Kroger or the Aldi, though.  But nevertheless, I will count the opportunity to remove another billboard from the Gallatin streetscape as a victory.  And gaining a new signalized crosswalk across Gallatin will be an improvement to the pedestrian safety environment.   

Brett, thanks for being so engaging and providing updates on all the projects.  I know it's not my land and there's a happy balance between the land sitting idle and just accepting any plan the developer throws at us, but I think we're setting the bar fairly low on this project & missing a huge opportunity to assert a shift to pedestrian friendly planning.  The obvious piece is the parking being in the front. (If there are any professional City-planners out there & I am off-base please correct me) That's a clear 'car-centric' signal.  Gaining a crosswalk is nice, but then pedestrians have to dodge cars for the next 200 feet on their walk into the grocery store.  In comparison, the new strip across the street (Between McKennie & Greenwood with Orange Theory) is snug up against the street with parking in the back.   Very welcoming and accessible to walkers/cyclists.  The problem with accepting 'small victories' in this case is that it's surrendering a huge & symbolic frontage to the 'Old car-centric way' of doing things.  If it's 50 feet of frontage it's not as big a deal, but it's more like 1,000 feet.  Using Kroger & ALDI as the standard is exactly the problem.  That's what we're trying to get away from & you probably only get an opportunity once every 50 years for a full re-design on a lot like this.  Are there any opportunities to influence the design or is it set in stone? 

[MLBrumby]

Lack of imagination. We had a similar situation here with a publix on the north shore. They compromised putting the building sideways.

[WebberThomas4]

A lot of the concerns being mentioned were addressed at the planning commission meeting back in March of 2017 and the plan passed 6-0. Hopefully @bwithers1 has a better memory than I do and is able to respond on here.  Unfortunately, I can’t find the video of the meeting on YouTube, but I was able to find one comment from a neighbor whose house is up against one of HG Hill’s parcels (the second to last comment). And, if I remember correctly, many different layouts were explored, but this was chosen because it maximizes the potential of the site (allows for additional retail and residential rather than just a grocery store that fronts Gallatin). 

[DJIII]

On 9/15/2018 at 2:49 PM, WebberThomas4 said:

A lot of the concerns being mentioned were addressed at the planning commission meeting back in March of 2017 and the plan passed 6-0. Hopefully @bwithers1 has a better memory than I do and is able to respond on here.  Unfortunately, I can’t find the video of the meeting on YouTube, but I was able to find one comment from a neighbor whose house is up against one of HG Hill’s parcels (the second to last comment). And, if I remember correctly, many different layouts were explored, but this was chosen because it maximizes the potential of the site (allows for additional retail and residential rather than just a grocery store that fronts Gallatin). 

It is heartening to see that a lot of this homeowner's concerns appear to have been addressed in this design.   Also it is very good that there will be 2 stores on the corners right against the street as well as a good # of residential units.  Great for density.  But I still see it as a complete sell-out of the community to let them have that giant parking lot face Gallatin.  If in the future it's determined we need less sqft for parking (due to improved transit/walkability) I think it'd be easier to repurpose some area behind the store building as opposed to filling in a 'missing tooth' in the frontage.   Also, if you back the store up to the neighborhood it's a big cinder block wall up against the residential area forever.     

[bwithers1]

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 12:47 PM, WebberThomas4 said:

Is it possible they are reusing all or even a portion of the old Cizar’s building that already has a drive thru?

 

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 10:20 AM, DJIII said:

Brett, thanks for being so engaging and providing updates on all the projects.  I know it's not my land and there's a happy balance between the land sitting idle and just accepting any plan the developer throws at us, but I think we're setting the bar fairly low on this project & missing a huge opportunity to assert a shift to pedestrian friendly planning.  The obvious piece is the parking being in the front. (If there are any professional City-planners out there & I am off-base please correct me) That's a clear 'car-centric' signal.  Gaining a crosswalk is nice, but then pedestrians have to dodge cars for the next 200 feet on their walk into the grocery store.  In comparison, the new strip across the street (Between McKennie & Greenwood with Orange Theory) is snug up against the street with parking in the back.   Very welcoming and accessible to walkers/cyclists.  The problem with accepting 'small victories' in this case is that it's surrendering a huge & symbolic frontage to the 'Old car-centric way' of doing things.  If it's 50 feet of frontage it's not as big a deal, but it's more like 1,000 feet.  Using Kroger & ALDI as the standard is exactly the problem.  That's what we're trying to get away from & you probably only get an opportunity once every 50 years for a full re-design on a lot like this.  Are there any opportunities to influence the design or is it set in stone? 

These are some random thoughts in response to some of the above posts.

What you get with a grocery store building placed against the sidewalk and the parking in the rear is that pedestrians will have to walk all the way around the building to the back to get to the entrance to the building.  See the Turnip Truck's new location on Woodland Street.  While it is true that the building fronts the sidewalk, I am not convinced that it is necessarily designed with pedestrians in mind, because pedestrians have to go to the back of the store where the parking lot entrance is to access the store.  

The prior plan for this parcel (from a decade ago) that would have had a Publix fronting a portion of the street had a giant blank wall facing the street with the entrance on the "side" facing a parking lot.  Since that time, the Gallatin Road SP was thrown out by the court and the Gallatin Road Urban Design Overlay that replaced it several years ago makes no requirements about building placement or signage.

This site plan does add pedestrian-friendly features such as brand new sidewalks, a new bus shelter, and a new signalized crosswalk across Gallatin that is badly needed, and other features.

Parking requirements are partly set by Metro Government but are largely set by the grocery store management companies.  Therefore, even if Metro removed all parking requirements (as we have done downtown) the tenants would demand a certain number of parking spaces in order to sign a lease.  I was able to work with Kroger to lower their parking spaces some. 

The new site plan is for a larger store and it reverses some of the design decisions that were made earlier so that now the loading dock will be from the side and not front-facing toward Gallatin.  These design decisions arise from the larger store footprint.  As for having a large wall facing the residential, yes, this can be true, but that is the purpose of trees and screening.  If a large mixed-use building were constructed here, there would be multiple-story parking decks facing the neighbor's yards with dwelling units with windows overlooking their yards.  At least this is a one-story building and maintains some degree of privacy for the neighbors.

The business with the drive-through window is not an adaptive reuse of the former Mapco gas station (and who knows what before that) that used to be the home of Cizar's.  Having been in that building, I find the idea of reusing that structure to be romanticized and not realistic.  But that is just me.  Urban Planning folks may decry the drive-through or the business itself but I predict that the business will be quite successful.

Obviously, transit on Gallatin has been a non-starter twice now and so for the foreseeable future Nashvillians will drive to grocery stores even for short trips.  If the decision on transit changes in the future, and if Nashvillian's willingness to use transit to go grocery shopping for the family changes, this plan could always potentially be revisited with more outbuildings fronting Gallatin subject to the lease terms with the anchor grocery store tenant.  I often walk to Kroger, but then I am single and rarely home enough to eat at home and so there is very little in my refrigerator at any one time.  So I may be an anomaly.  Actually, I am one of the few non-STR-guests walking on Gallatin, so even the fact that I walk on Gallatin is considered an anomaly in East Nashville and is frequently remarked upon.

My personal belief based upon constituent communications is that East Nashvillians want another grocery store option in the area, and so at some point the question becomes whether you want the grocery store that will sign a lease in the space or not.  Given that choice, I am guessing that most people will be happy having another grocery store.  Even the often-requested Trader Joe's stores that I have been to have parking lots out front.  I am in no way suggesting that this store will be a Trader Joe's.  I am simply saying that if the property owner felt that a potential grocery store tenant would sign a lease with a building built up to the street with parking in the rear, that the site plan would be designed that way.

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by bwithers1

[AronG]

14 minutes ago, bwithers1 said:

Obviously, transit on Gallatin has been a non-starter and so for the foreseeable future Nashvillians will drive to grocery stores even for short trips.  If the decision on transit changes in the future, and if Nashvillian's willingness to use transit to go grocery shopping for the family changes, this plan could always potentially be revisited with more outbuildings fronting Gallatin subject to the lease terms with the anchor grocery store tenant.  I often walk to Kroger, but then I am single and rarely home enough to eat at home and so there is very little in my refrigerator at any one time.  So I may be an anomaly.  Actually, I am one of the few non-STR-guests walking on Gallatin, so even the fact that I walk on Gallatin is considered an anomaly in East Nashville and is frequently remarked upon.

My personal belief based upon constituent communications is that East Nashvillians want another grocery store option in the area, and so at some point the question becomes whether you want the grocery store that will sign a lease in the space or not.  Given that choice, I am guessing that most people will be happy having another grocery store.  Even the often-requested Trader Joe's stores that I have been to have parking lots out front.  I am in no way suggesting that this store will be a Trader Joe's.  I am simply saying that if the property owner felt that a potential tenant would sign a lease with a building built up to the street with parking in the rear, that the site plan would be designed that way.

 

Thanks for the information Brett. I know all this requires a balancing act. The part of it I feel like we have to evolve on is the "no-one swims across the river, why do we need a bridge" mentality. People don't use walk/bike/use transit much *because* the designs we accept treat those options as second-class afterthoughts. There are many in the neighborhood (esp. the younger generation) that are passionate about pushing hard to get pedestrian-friendly designs, even if it means waiting for a tenant that wants to serve that market. There is new residential density going in all along Galatin, both STR and otherwise, and since that's the only area with extra zoning capacity, it's only going to continue. But if we keep allowing suburban configurations, all of them will choose to get in their cars instead of hoofing it. Brand new drive-throughs and giant front parking lots are a huge flashing sign telling people we're still not interested in building a real walkable environment and everyone other than the poor or the enthusiast should drive.

[DJIII]

4 hours ago, bwithers1 said:

 

These are some random thoughts in response to some of the above posts.

What you get with a grocery store building placed against the sidewalk and the parking in the rear is that pedestrians will have to walk all the way around the building to the back to get to the entrance to the building.  

 

Hey Brett,  thanks for responding.  I know it's difficult trying to keep everyone happy, so your thoughtful responses are much appreciated.   AronG's response pretty much captures my thoughts as far as prioritizing walkability, etc, & i've said my piece, so I won't badger you further on that.  I do agree that the project does contain many improvements, it's a decent step forward even if it does fall short in some areas.  Thanks again for your efforts & look forward to engaging on projects in the future.

[WebberThomas4]

http://maps.nashville.gov/MPC/2018Z-106PR-001_Applic.pdf

The owner of the church at 1600 Riverside Drive is requesting a zoning change (from CL, R10, and R6 to MUL-A). The Boedecker foundation (guy who co-founded Crocs) purchased the building in July of 2017, but I do not believe plans have been announced yet. 

This intersection may look completely different in the next few years with this, Snapshot Interactive, the new Korean restaurant and whatever goes in the old service station. I’ve also heard there might be a change coming to the Berkshire Place/Panorama Apartments in the next couple of years. 

Edited September 18, 2018 by WebberThomas4

[grilled_cheese]

11 minutes ago, WebberThomas4 said:

http://maps.nashville.gov/MPC/2018Z-106PR-001_Applic.pdf

The owner of the church at 1600 Riverside Drive is requesting a zoning change (from CL, R10, and R6 to MUL-A). The Boedecker foundation (guy who co-founded Crocs) purchased the building in July of 2017, but I do not believe plans have been announced yet. 

This intersection may look completely different in the next few years with this, Snapshot Interactive, the new Korean restaurant and whatever goes in the old service station. I’ve also heard there might be a change coming to the Berkshire Place/Panorama Apartments in the next couple of years.  

Hell yeah, Riverside Village part Deux!

[DJIII]

Over in Fantasyland (ie. The East Nashville facebook Page), they’re saying a Trader Joe’s is going into the current Goodwill space near ALDI. Also the Five Points Family Dollar is reported to be closing and being redeveloped. Any solid info out there on these 2 properties?

Edited September 18, 2018 by DJIII

[smeagolsfree]

44 minutes ago, WebberThomas4 said:

http://maps.nashville.gov/MPC/2018Z-106PR-001_Applic.pdf

The owner of the church at 1600 Riverside Drive is requesting a zoning change (from CL, R10, and R6 to MUL-A). The Boedecker foundation (guy who co-founded Crocs) purchased the building in July of 2017, but I do not believe plans have been announced yet. 

This intersection may look completely different in the next few years with this, Snapshot Interactive, the new Korean restaurant and whatever goes in the old service station. I’ve also heard there might be a change coming to the Berkshire Place/Panorama Apartments in the next couple of years. 

Working on this one. Saw it last week.

[grilled_cheese]

10 minutes ago, DJIII said:

Over in Fantasyland (ie. The East Nashville facebook Page), they’re saying a Trader Joe’s is going into the current Goodwill space near ALDI. Also the Five Points Family Dollar is reported to be closing and being redeveloped. Any solid info out there on these 2 properties?

Sad about the Family Dollar.  Will be tough for low income folks to get groceries/necessities.  I always lament how that should be redeveloped but my wife is always quick to point out that downside.

[WebberThomas4]

5 minutes ago, grilled_cheese said:

Sad about the Family Dollar.  Will be tough for low income folks to get groceries/necessities.  I always lament how that should be redeveloped but my wife is always quick to point out that downside.

Yes, but there is a Family Dollar less than a mile away at 600 Shelby and a Dollar General less than a .5 mile away on Gallatin.   Bill Martin’s is also around the corner. 

[WebberThomas4]

The building home to Marche has sold for $4,312,500. The seller was March Egerton. I’m sure this is just an investment purchase, but I still find it interesting due to the location. 

 

[Rockatansky]

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Edited September 18, 2018 by Rockatansky
Deleted repetative comment.

[AronG]

If you squint that's three properties in 5 points that could be redeveloped. Here's hoping. So much potential over there but I've been amazed at the way this whole cycle has barely touched it so far. There's been a few small things (burger up, the Hunters food court, that airbnb thing next to bongo java), but it's such a ripe area for some apartments and/or more retail, it's kind of mind boggling how much of it is filled with parking lots. Seems like people would really pony up for that location.

[Pdt2f]

31 minutes ago, AronG said:

If you squint that's three properties in 5 points that could be redeveloped. Here's hoping. So much potential over there but I've been amazed at the way this whole cycle has barely touched it so far. There's been a few small things (burger up, the Hunters food court, that airbnb thing next to bongo java), but it's such a ripe area for some apartments and/or more retail, it's kind of mind boggling how much of it is filled with parking lots. Seems like people would really pony up for that location.

If the locals would let them get a good return on investment. Personally if I had the money for a substantial project I’d look elsewhere, considering the amount of crap that you have to go through to get anything done in EN. I know many of the nimbys have noble purposes but sometimes just daaaaamn. 

[bhibbs]

11 minutes ago, Pdt2f said:

If the locals would let them get a good return on investment. Personally if I had the money for a substantial project I’d look elsewhere, considering the amount of crap that you have to go through to get anything done in EN. I know many of the nimbys have noble purposes but sometimes just daaaaamn. 

add on to the fact that most of them have more than likely only lived in that area for 5 or less years...just makes it even more hilarious that they put up such a fight.

[Rockatansky]

30 minutes ago, bhibbs said:

add on to the fact that most of them have more than likely only lived in that area for 5 or less years...just makes it even more hilarious that they put up such a fight.

This has not been my experience. Its typically the newcomers who are generally more supportive of changes in the built environment while the longer term residents generally tend to oppose those changes.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Rockatansky

[NashvilleObserver]

4 hours ago, WebberThomas4 said:

The building home to Marche has sold for $4,312,500. The seller was March Egerton. I’m sure this is just an investment purchase, but I still find it interesting due to the location. 

 

If anything happens to Marche I'm going to be so mad!!

[smeagolsfree]

I know who the buyer is and the story will be coming out in the Post shortly. Right now, nothing will happen to the building!

[AronG]

2 hours ago, Rockatansky said:

This has not been my experience. Its typically the newcomers who are generally more supportive of changes in the built environment while the longer term residents generally tend to oppose those changes.

Hadn't thought about it but this is totally true. Which to me is optimistic, because it means at some point the tide will turn. Problem is those guys disproportionately dominate the feedback mechanisms for these things. I can't wait til I'm old and my kids are grown and I can show up to more meetings and be crotchity.

[markhollin]

Emotions run high as development sells in Cleveland Park area:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/money/2018/09/18/east-nashville-cleveland-park-gentrification/1289196002/