Davidson Southeast: Antioch, Century Farms, East of Brentwood

[smeagolsfree]

Why do we need another music venue?  I have my doubts that the venue will be approved by Metro. Another issue is these guys are not really developers with any major experience or with any experience at all.

GBT could not get the office off the ground and these guys probably got impatient. The Brain Paul brand is just a brand created by one of the developers trying to make it sound sexy.

[samsonh]

37 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

Why do we need another music venue?  I have my doubts that the venue will be approved by Metro. Another issue is these guys are not really developers with any major experience or with any experience at all.

GBT could not get the office off the ground and these guys probably got impatient. The Brain Paul brand is just a brand created by one of the developers trying to make it sound sexy.

Agreed. This seems like a late cycle development that will not get off the ground. They will need loads of equity to get a loan, and they don't have any experience with this level of project. 

[Pdt2f]

37 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

Why do we need another music venue?

Because with very few exceptions every music venue in the city is in the core, and this location perfectly serves Williamson county in a way downtown doesn’t. Not everyone wants to go downtown for concerts. 

Why would metro deny it?

[VSRJ]

^ Can we just have some natural space that isn't occupied by development? I like the hills as they are...

[smeagolsfree]

Traffic may be one reason, Noise could be another reason as the area that surrounds it is residential.

There is a amphitheater somewhere down in Franklin now, not sure if that was built as I quit following that market.

Besides, these jokers have to get a loan for 320 million and the banks are very cautious about loaning right now. Trust me, a music venue and a new hotel brand will be a hard sell to any bank looking to loan money based on the current market in Nashville as far a music venues go. A bank or the insurance company that is the guarantee holder does not want to own a hotel or a music venue if they can help it.

I have seen developers like this over the past dozen years and when they have no experience the banks have a hard time loaning money. This company does not have a website, the hotel has not got a website and is the brainchild of one of the partners in this group.

We have seen the Ardivan Afrakhteh's, the Travis Kelty's and a few others to know this has about the same chance at happening as flying cars taking to the skies next year in mass.

ML Brumby may be able to offer some more insight as he is in the industry.

[Rockatansky]

29 minutes ago, VSRJ said:

^ Can we just have some natural space that isn't occupied by development? I like the hills as they are...

Have you been to Joelton?

Edited March 22, 2018 by Rockatansky

[markhollin]

Nearly every music venue in town is selling out with regularity, and this has been the case for several years now.  One of the main reasons is that surveys show that HALF of the people attending events are from out of town--whether its 250 packed into 3rd & Lindsley, or 18,000 at Bridgestone.  Our Music City USA brand is definitely working, and people love coming here for a long weekend (or even a full week) to check out shows, restaurants, museums, etc. 

 

[PaulChinetti]

I can definitely vouch for everything being sold out constantly. The wife and I like going to concerts and it's a constant battle to buy tickets. Sometimes it's down to just knowing someone because the tickets sell out in minutes for the bigger artists. 

The more venues the merrier. Eventually I would think we will reach some kind of equilibrium but who knows. I haven't heard of too many music venues closing, like the recent spat of restaurant closings. 

 

[Pdt2f]

As far as the borrowing ability of the developers, I have no idea, you have a much better handle on that, Smeags. My only contention is that the area in question would be a great music venue location. 

2 hours ago, VSRJ said:

^ Can we just have some natural space that isn't occupied by development? I like the hills as they are...

Eh come on bro, Nashville has PLENTY of green space. I don’t think we should Saruman every tree in Davidson county but I also don’t think we need to make WillCo style restrictions on every hilltop in the county. 

[Flatrock]

CB Ragland purchased the Sears outlet/repair facilities on Thompson Lane. Price was $13mm, 110,000 sq. ft. building on 7.62 acres. They say it's business as usual for Sears, but I wonder what they might be planning for that parcel down the road. No way Sears' lease could come anywhere close to making sense for more than a year or two based on $13mil purchase price.

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2018/03/22/nashville-sears-property-sold.html

[smeagolsfree]

1 hour ago, Flatrock said:

CB Ragland purchased the Sears outlet/repair facilities on Thompson Lane. Price was $13mm, 110,000 sq. ft. building on 7.62 acres. They say it's business as usual for Sears, but I wonder what they might be planning for that parcel down the road. No way Sears' lease could come anywhere close to making sense for more than a year or two based on $13mil purchase price.

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2018/03/22/nashville-sears-property-sold.html

Yes there is a plan in place. I cant say anything more than that.

2 hours ago, Pdt2f said:

As far as the borrowing ability of the developers, I have no idea, you have a much better handle on that, Smeags. My only contention is that the area in question would be a great music venue location. 

Eh come on bro, Nashville has PLENTY of green space. I don’t think we should Saruman every tree in Davidson county but I also don’t think we need to make WillCo style restrictions on every hilltop in the county. 

OK, here are my thoughts, love them or hate them. 

People want green space no matter here they live. Most of the new work, play, live projects have green space. New building campuses have green space, i.e.., the proposed Ausrion campus downtown.

Nashville does not have the green space other cities smaller than it has, you can never have enough green space.

Development for the sake of development is wrong. That is what smart growth is all about and this is not smart growth nor a good use of the space, IMO.

How many music venues can we support. There are two more in the works for downtown, the House of Blues, which again are people that I question their ability to get the project done, and the Live Nation venue that will be at the Nashville Yards project. If you have too many, someone will suffer. The economy is great right now, but it will not always be so. Nashville being a tourist town will see a dramatic drop when the economy takes a downturn, and it will take a downturn. Some of these projects are going to fail or not get off the ground to start with.

As far as a music venue there, I would not want to be there if a thunderstorm rolls in like they do around here. Again remember this is surrounded by residential. DO you want to live next to a loud music venue. You already have issues with Ascend being too loud.

At the last meet I gave a list of about 70 or 80 projects that are delayed, dead, questionable, and I missed a bunch. Every thing is a matter of economics. Can the market place absorb everything. The large land sales have slowed, the items on Development tracker have slowed, I have seen a drop in building permits on some things, not all. Single family residential remains strong. new hotels announcements have already slowed and next year we will not have as many hotel starts as last year and this year. will start to slow. 

All I am saying is a lot of these projects that have been proposed including this one are from people trying to cash in.  Many are a day late and ten years too early.

[markhollin]

Several responses:

- It's an indoor music venue, so that shouldn't bother anyone.  

- There are hardly any live music venues outside of downtown/midtown.  Since Franklin Theater is doing VERY well as a live indoor venue, I think any other additional space that will cater to Williamson County Green Hills could be quite successful.

- There may be a fair amount of projects that are stalled or not happening, but there is still a huge amount that ARE happening.  There will always be some pretenders that are part of the mix---this isn't unique to Nashville. And what may look like a slowdown to some, is still way ahead of the pace of most metros in our nation. I know many folks who come to visit and they are quite envious of all that is percolating around here.   

[Flatrock]

2 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

Yes there is a plan in place. I cant say anything more than that.

Thank you, sir.  That area is ripe for development/redevelopment. I hope it's good, whatever it is.....

[titanhog]

I love the yin / yang of Smeagols and Mark. 

[Pdt2f]

I don’t see how there’s any evidence of there being an over saturation in music venues. By their own admission and the testimony of those who attend events in them the existing ones are consistently sold out, and as far as I remember only one new major venue has opened in the last 3 or 4 years (Ascend, with several other <1,000 venues in hotels and whatnot). Almost all of the existing venues that serve our 13 county, almost two million person metro area are in like a 5 square mile radius downtown, and the few that aren’t (as Mark pointed about about Franklin Cinema) are booming. So really all we have evidence of is that music venues are doing great, not that there are too many of them. 

That area isn’t really that residential. There are some townhomes around it to the south and east but nothing much else really. Presumably most concerts wouldn’t happen during rush hour or anything and the venue is indoors so it shouldn’t cause too much disruption. 

[East Side Urbanite]

I'm with Ron on this one. He writes this: "Development for the sake of development is wrong." And this project simply seems .... wrong.

My job affords me a chance to hear what the live music venue owners, operators and employees think. And many feel that, yes, we might have too many live music venues. Admittedly, they are biased but they have a good feel for this issued. Better than most of us. And a live music venue on a hill in the suburbs ... odd. And even more odd, a boutique hotel in that spot? Seriously. Most boutique hotels are in urban centers or in "special places" (Savannah, in the mountains, on the ocean, etc.) This is simply not a spot that would seemingly lend itself to a boutique hotel. Yes, we have the Hotel Preston in the suburbs and off an interstate. But it's at least near the airport.

Not all proposed developments are needed, helpful to the overall area and/or practical. This seems to be one of those projects that is too far-fetched.

 

 

 

 

[NashvilleObserver]

I don't understand why the music venue is causing such a ruckus... it is just one part of this whole development. Oversaturation of music venues? Oh please.... Also, why would this not be an area for a boutique hotel.... it's Brentwood. Brentwood visitors would gobble it right up. 

I agree this this doesn't seem to have a chance of getting off the ground, but I'm not against it. luxury homes, restaurants condos. Seems like a nice addition. Also, if you want to see beautiful, green, preserved, undeveloped hills, hop on over to Radnor Lake.

[Nash_12South]

Maybe I'm just being elitist but has any thought gone into dividing this grouping/topic into separate topics? Combining Belmont all the way to Antioch seems broad. Just a thought.

[smeagolsfree]

And the backlash starts.....

 

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/williamson/brentwood/2018/03/22/some-brentwood-concerned-over-south-davidson-county-luxury-hotel-project-proposed-south-davidson-cou/449440002/

My guess is Metro will not approve this in its current proposed status. Even though Brentwood has no say, both cities work together in a lose sense. I don't think traffic will approve and the neighbors that are in Davidson close to this project will soon be opposed to this as well.

[PaulChinetti]

""Everybody wants to protect where they live. I'm most concerned with how it would impact this corridor here. If their traffic studies show it's nonimpactful, OK," McClendon said. "

An measured response from a local resident, what a breath of fresh air. 

Brentwood is a poster child for awful 'city' sprawl. No sidewalks connect anything between the vast parking areas. So you have to drive everywhere if you don't want to get mowed down. 

[smeagolsfree]

That may have been for the old project, but the article states a Metro traffic study has not been done for the new project.

 

"A traffic impact study for the site is in the works, according to Sam Reed, communications consultant with The Ingram Group"

[markhollin]

This all seems so silly.  When it was a proposed office park (featuring two minimum 8 story structures), that would've created considerably MORE traffic than this proposal,  there didn't seem to be any backlash.

And people act like it's some pristine hill---there's a huge water tank at the top of it, for God's sake. Additionally, there are already 9 other hotels within 1/3 of a mile (one actually on the hill itself--the Hyatt Place) and no one is complaining about those. 

 

[East Side Urbanite]

Again, WHY do we need a live music venue in this spot? Many of you are saying we can support more venues (which I don't fully agree with) but I'm not hearing WHY this spot (one of you did address that question, to be fair, saying it would "bridge the geographic gap" between the city's live music venues and the Franklin theater).  But the other posters seem to say "let's build, build, build." Why?

And, again, a boutique hotel there? Why. Somebody give me a good reason other than to "build, build, build." When you think of boutique hotels, what type locations to you mentally picture? On a hill off an interstate in a traffic-heavy suburb and not near many distinctive restaurants, cultural attractions, mountain, oceans, resorts, etc.? Do you sincerely WANT a boutique hotel there? Does a boutique hotel NEED to be there?

I agree with Mark that that once-beautiful hill is now ruined. So a development (in that respect) would not be a problem.

 

[PaulChinetti]

They should just call it a conference center for very important business meetings, that will sometimes have live music then everyone will be happy. 

Not sure there was anything beautiful about the hill before, the big water tank on top has been there forever pretty sure. It was  logged a few years ago too. Once side is the interstate, one side is a hotel and one side is a storage unit. It's not like it's pristine wilderness up there. This project sounds better to me than any boring ass office building  that could be put up there surrounded by a sea of asphalt.

I could see the the boutique hotel being very popular for execs who want to entertain investors/guests coming into town and want to impress them.

[markhollin]

The WHY's for a boutique hotel are:

A) There is obviously need for more hotel rooms in that area with all the corporate business, good access to I-65, etc.  All 9 of the hotels within a stone's throw of this location are doing great business.

B) There would be beautiful views of downtown to the north, and all the surrounding area which is basically below this high summit. It would definitely stand out from all of it's competitors within a stone's throw. 

The WHY's for the music venue:

A) The only nice indoor venue that I can think of  within Williamson County is the Franklin Theater, which is just 330 seats.  The only comparably sized venues in southern Davidson County are at Belmont and Lipscomb Universities, and they rarely host events open to the public at those. 

B) A well-run 600 seat venue could offer a lot to the hundreds of thousands in Williamson and Rutherford Counties who may not want to deal with all the downtown traffic. I could see a broad selection of artists from classic rock/country acts, to current pop, to Christian artists, to jazz artists, standards artists, to comedians (this is becoming too big of a tourist market to only have Zanies as the lone comic option). Occasional plays, corporate speakers (with all the HQ's around there, a need is present for these),  children's shows, special film screenings, etc. could all be hosted there.  I good agent could keep a place like this booked several hundred days a year. 

C) It is a location right off the freeway at a major intersection, right in the heart of a very vibrant/high income part of the metroplex. 

D) The views from there would be iconic.  It should be named The Summit or something along those lines.