smeagolsfree

The Gulch Projects

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The entrance seems to be the portico that runs under the building and would connect to a 2 story parking deck in the rear.

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Interesting... Is there a rooftop deck of some sort?

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Interesting... Is there a rooftop deck of some sort?

I think there's a meeting room with a view overlooking SoBro and then you could go out onto a roof deck next to it, weather permitting. 

 

On the whole it's pretty drab but it's still something for this sparsely developed area. 

 

Surely Metro would make them build a sidewalk?  Even the factories I pass on Brick Church Pike have built their section of sidewalk, creating an interrupted stretch of pedestrian pavement wherever new construction has happened.  I assumed this was a regulation of some sort.

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Surely Metro would make them build a sidewalk?

If memory serves me right there already is a sidewalk there. I'm sure codes would require one, but I seriously doubt one would be removed permanantly. I simply mentioned it as a frustration about the rendering. I don't like auto-centric buildings.

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You are correct in saying there is a sidewalk there now. Metro would not allow them to remove a sidewalk.

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This past weekend I spoke in depth with a business associate of Turner (Marketplace) and Liff (Cummins Station) regarding developments in the Gulch. My friend was able to add some details to already know questions -

 

As discussed there will be a route/pedestrian bridge leading from the new MCC roundabout to the Gulch. They are planning the best route with the least resistance from Marketplace, Cummins Station, and CSX. Marketplace has plans for yet another apartment development, CSX is ...well...CSX and does not want to give-up any air rights, and Cummins Stations want to make sure it adds value to their properties. 

 

The image below is not a definite route but one that is favored by my friend. The proposed bridge will do a very nice job of adding access to the entertainment venues at The Cannery complex as well as the proposed  Parthenon Park development. 

 

425766_10151276685944886_1538537281_n.jp
 

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CSX is really a pain of a company. They are the one reason I'd think that the pedestrian bridge from the Gulch to SoBro would not happen.

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CSX is really a pain of a company. They are the one reason I'd think that the pedestrian bridge from the Gulch to SoBro would not happen.

I agree.  It's hard for me to fathom CSX giving up their air rights easily.  That means that either a private company would have a huge legal hassle with lots of costly lawyer time to get this done, or Metro would have to use eminent domain.  Either one of those scenarios could be a costly and drawn-out process.  The latter would likely not be popular.  The cost-benefit analysis would be interesting.

 

I have heard comparisons to the elavated parks in New York and in Chicago (the Bloomingdale line), but both of those were existing elevated rail tracks.  That's a different animal than constructing something new like that.

 

I'm not saying that it can't or won't get done, but I'm not looking for it to happen really soon.  In the mean time, people coming from the convention center can walk the additional block down Demonbreun to 12th and then proceed into the Gulch.  The 8th Ave entrance into the Gulch is still a little sketchy for now.

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Sad that it would have to come to eminent domain for air rights. Funny thing is, that might be the one case where most anti-ED people would look at it and go... "huh... well...".

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There ought to be some way to get out ahead of this politically and make CSX look like jerks if they don't comply.  They have very little headroom (14 feet?) just a little ways down that track, so they won't be shipping giraffes through this route any time soon.  Looks like a dog-in-the-manger situation. 

 

Getting people out of their cars depends on exactly this kind of thing. A lot of us on this board may be walkers--the trip to Demonbreun doesn't seem that inconvenient to us--but for most people having a direct pedestrian route and having it feel safe and pleasant along its length--so you don't feel like some weirdo walking where you're not supposed to--that's what will get way more people out on the pavement. 

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There ought to be some way to get out ahead of this politically and make CSX look like jerks if they don't comply.  They have very little headroom (14 feet?) just a little ways down that track, so they won't be shipping giraffes through this route any time soon.  Looks like a dog-in-the-manger situation. 

 

They run intermodal (double-stack container) trains through that area, so the clearance has to be at least 20 feet. Not that it should be a problem.

Anyone remember a little while back (maybe 8-10 years ago) when CSX hit the Broadway bridge with a stack train that was slightly too tall?

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Just curious if anyone has access to very very old copies of the Tennessean.  There was a feature in January 1974 (a Sunday edition) that apparently is about an future for the Gulch, complete with renderings.  I haven't seen it, but saw its title when I stumbled across the MNPL index online, and I think it's Sunday 1/20/74.   Anyway, if anyone can get a copy of that story and pics, it would be fun to see 40 years later.

Edited by MLBrumby
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Philadelphia just managed to do a similar thing in building a pedestrian bridge to connect a park with the rest of the city over heavily used Norfolk Southern tracks.  It took years of legal and contract wrangling dealing with them, but it eventually happened.  I see the same thing happening here: CSX will not want to give up their airspace rights cheaply, but the city won't want to resort to eminent domain on such a large and influential company.

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Not trying to be a buzzkill but the South of Broadway plan comes complete with recommendations only. No funding is in place for any of the items they will list as priority. This is not to say that they won't get funded but all are far from a done deal.

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I don't think you're a buzzkiil p2. I think we all realize that it's mostly pipe dreams. But the CSX thing is definitely a issue that would arise in the event of putting up a $15m bridge over their tracks. Same with continuing Division St towards 2nd Ave. 

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I just realized that the Fairfield is going to be right across the street from Yazoo.  I actually am kind of excited about it now, hopefully it'll get more people out walking around there.  This has to be good for business in the Taproom, too.

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I don't think you're a buzzkiil p2. I think we all realize that it's mostly pipe dreams. But the CSX thing is definitely a issue that would arise in the event of putting up a $15m bridge over their tracks. Same with continuing Division St towards 2nd Ave. 

The difference between the two bridge ideas is that the benefits of connecting Division Street to the 2nd/Lafayette area as a Complete Street are more apparent for more people (for bikes and cars in addition to pedestrians) than a pedestrian-only bridge connecting the back of Cummins Station to the Gulch.  Not only would the Division Street connector rapidly expand property redevelopment in that area along Ash Street/Ewing, etc, but it could effectively expand the use of the existing 2nd/4th exit off of I-40 as an additional exit/entrance to serve the emerging 8th Ave South area as well as the lower Gulch.  For these reasons, I could see eminent domain gaining some traction with the Division Street Connector as the next logical step after the opening of KVB in reconfiguring the area between Downtown and the South Loop.

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Wow! $15,000 for a pedestrian/bicycle bridge over the tracks?

The Greenways bridge over the Cumberland was only $8,500,000 and I do not think the span will be as wide...

 

(I say 'only' in comparison to the $15,000,000 figure)

Edited by nashville_bound

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I'm all for financial responsibility too, but come on brother!  You're really getting riled up over a $15 million pedestrian bridge?  Why do some people despise so much the concept of citizens of a city contributing financially to the betterment of that city?  Maybe it's a really good quality bridge.  Would it really be such a bad thing if Nashville didn't half ass a project for ONCE?  Should we build it out of popsicle sticks instead so each citizen saves a couple cents? 

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I don't see why we can't have both bridges built, at least in time. I wouldn't suggest necessarily starting both projects RIGHT NOW...but what's the problem with having that in the master plan?

I agree that the car bridge continuing Division St would have a more immediate impact and would be easier to justify in terms of cost/benefit, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a pedestrian bridge would not be beneficial to the area it serves.

Yes, a pedestrian bridge to the Gulch from the roundabout would likely only save about 500-600 feet of walking by my calculations (assuming you are going downtown). To me it's more about creating a more direct connection between the emerging areas of the Gulch and SoBro. So maybe put the idea on the back burner for a little while, but it would be a shame if the area to the immediate west of the roundabout develops and it becomes too late to add in the bridge at a later time.

So yes, in terms of distance saved, it would not be huge. But the same could be said for the other bridge project. While Division and Ash do not currently connect, it's not a huge workaround to get from the end of one to the other. In fact, it saves less than 400 feet of driving (maybe 10-15 seconds of driving). The only difference being that you have to directly cross the railroad rather than pass over it. But it's not just about the speed of cutting across the very bottom of SoBro...it's about creating a new cross avenue that psychologically connects Rutledge Hill, SoBro, and The Gulch.

Both projects have merit, IMO. Maybe not for RIGHT NOW, but I think a lot can be said for trying to increase the connections between our neighborhoods and districts in town. It's about creating more thoroughfares and fewer detours, for both cars and pedestrians.

I'm fine with putting it on the back burner. But I don't think we should just dismiss it.

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The difference between the two bridge ideas is that the benefits of connecting Division Street to the 2nd/Lafayette area as a Complete Street are more apparent for more people (for bikes and cars in addition to pedestrians) than a pedestrian-only bridge connecting the back of Cummins Station to the Gulch.  Not only would the Division Street connector rapidly expand property redevelopment in that area along Ash Street/Ewing, etc, but it could effectively expand the use of the existing 2nd/4th exit off of I-40 as an additional exit/entrance to serve the emerging 8th Ave South area as well as the lower Gulch.  For these reasons, I could see eminent domain gaining some traction with the Division Street Connector as the next logical step after the opening of KVB in reconfiguring the area between Downtown and the South Loop.

 

Agree completely. Moving forward with the Division street connector would encourage and accelerate the redevelopment of the 2nd/Lafayette area, and would help tie the Gulch/Rutledge/Rolling Mill Hill areas together which will further add value. I think some work should be done around the 2nd/4th exit off of I-40(pretty run down) as the Division connector/growth of Sobro, Rutledge/Rolling Mill Hill will all increase this exit's usage in the years to come. Beautify it and give it a taste of Nashville as you come off the interstate and enter downtown...

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Beautify it and give it a taste of Nashville as you come off the interstate and enter downtown...

I always thought the World's Largest Adult Bookstore and the Crazy Horse did a great job of that. :ph34r:

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Why build a bridge for $15M(or whatever) when you can build it for $8.5M (or whatever)? It does not make any sense to me. If it costs more public funds than can be justified have Marketstreet and other beneficiaries kick-in the balance.  There are finite resources so while I am all for good architecture, spending the monies of the people on vanity projects smacks of less-than-good stewardship.  One of the biggest reasons this city is doing so well is our relatively low tax burden. I for one would like it to remain low. 

 

I'm all for financial responsibility too, but come on brother!  You're really getting riled up over a $15 million pedestrian bridge?  Why do some people despise so much the concept of citizens of a city contributing financially to the betterment of that city?  Maybe it's a really good quality bridge.  Would it really be such a bad thing if Nashville didn't half ass a project for ONCE?  Should we build it out of popsicle sticks instead so each citizen saves a couple cents? 


Where are you guys reading about the Division Street connector? I must have missed that release.

 

 

Agree completely. Moving forward with the Division street connector would encourage and accelerate the redevelopment of the 2nd/Lafayette area, and would help tie the Gulch/Rutledge/Rolling Mill Hill areas together which will further add value. I think some work should be done around the 2nd/4th exit off of I-40(pretty run down) as the Division connector/growth of Sobro, Rutledge/Rolling Mill Hill will all increase this exit's usage in the years to come. Beautify it and give it a taste of Nashville as you come off the interstate and enter downtown...

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