Brightline Trains

[gibby]

Yes, of course.  They and the Scaife Foundation are the largest funders of Reason.  Are you saying that Koch-affiliated groups spent a grand total of $10,000 to defeat the Nashville rail proposal and that anti-rail groups were greatly outspent (maybe 20:1) by pro-rail groups?

[Dale]

On the NYT's shoddy reporting ...

https://www.econlib.org/the-new-york-times-shoddy-reporting/

[spenser1058]

13 minutes ago, Dale said:

On the NYT's shoddy reporting ...

https://www.econlib.org/the-new-york-times-shoddy-reporting/

Given your source was founded by an uberconservative, right-wing libertarian, I hardly think we should expect that to be an objective commentary. Please, by all means try again.

[spenser1058]

The Tennessean (Nashville's local Gannett-owned paper) reports a single 501C conservative-affiliated organization spent close to $950,000 in opposition, but for some odd reason refused to release the names of the donors.

https://amp.tennessean.com/amp/543421002

From the Tennessean

In fairness, the Tennessean reports other missteps made by the pro-transit group. These are quite reminiscent of attempts in Orlando during the heyday of Doug Guetzloe and Ax the Tax (especially the 1986 MTA campaign.)

The thing we learned back then was that it would simply take a change in the electorate to discount the nonsense of Doug and his crew and we were right.

Another problem is the very reason I have long opposed merging Orlando and Orange County: the hinterlands tend to be mostly opposed to spending on things like transit. Indeed a key problem in the Nashville vote was opposition along the outskirts of Davidson County. Again, we're fortunate that more and more of those most opposed to civic improvement have left Orange for counties like Lake.

The mayoral scandal in Nashville also was a problem.

Finally, as mentioned in the article, when you hold the election matters. For any progressive improvements to succeed, it's vital to have all your voters show up. For Democrats, that only happens in a general election, preferably in a presidential year.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2018/05/02/nashville-transit-referendum-6-reasons-why-lost-big/571782002/

 

Edited July 16, 2018 by spenser1058

[gibby]

econlib.org?  These are fanatical right wing anti-tax extremists, funded by billionaires.  Again, do you think that the anti-rail groups were greatly outspent by the pro-rail groups in the Nashville debate?

[aent]

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

The New York Times' take on the story:

https://nyti.ms/2lmrvVP?smid=nytcore-ios-share

 

9 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Given your source was founded by an uberconservative, right-wing libertarian, I hardly think we should expect that to be an objective commentary. Please, by all means try again.

Lets just use your own source, regarding gibby's claim they are right wing. That very article talks about how they opposed the republican plans in 2017, in 2018 they opposed the steel tariff, even though it positively would affect the Koch Industries as they produce steel in America.

And lets go back to the original article, again, they did not say the transit project was bad, just that we simpily needed protections against cost overruns, and laid out a specific plan to build it any have said protections (splitting it into 2 phases, MCO to Disney as the first phase, as most believe that is among the most valuable routes expecting top ridership, many of those people do not drive vehicles or rent cars in the first place). That doesn't sound anti-transit to me, it sounds like they just want fiscal responsibility, as I originally said. And they never came out against Brightline either, since it met the requirements of protecting the taxpayers, which is an important goal. Infact, they've said the California HSR should have been more like Brightline, so it has a chance of getting done, and the costs wouldn't be completely out of control. But then again, people on both the left and right have said that. They've been pro-LGBT rights since before the Democrats started doing that. They typically don't take the right's side on pretty much any social issues at all.

[spenser1058]

To date, no privately owned rail organization has succeeded. Will Brightline? We'll find out when they actually provide service to Orlando on a regular basis.

Remember, Amtrak exists because the private passenger rail carriers wanted out of the business and left the Northeast Corridor in the lurch.

The irony is that Brightline's biggest opposition is coming from Republican counties (Martin, St. Lucie, Indian River and Brevard.)

It's also important to follow the words of the parties themselves. The transit plank of the 2016 Democratic National Convention is aggressively pro-transit. The RNC plank is not.

I don't think Brightline is viable at the end of the line and that they'll try to pass it back to Amtrak just like Penn Central and Auto Train and so many others have done. If I'm wrong and they succeed, I'll be the first to acknowledge they found a way to break the code. More power to them as long as the service is affordable for most Floridians.

[aent]

7 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

To date, no privately owned rail organization has succeeded. Will Brightline? We'll find out when they actually provide service to Orlando on a regular basis.

Remember, Amtrak exists because the private passenger rail carriers wanted out of the business and left the Northeast Corridor in the lurch.

The irony is that Brightline's biggest opposition is coming from Republican counties (Martin, St. Lucie, Indian River and Brevard.)

It's also important to follow the words of the parties themselves. The transit plank of the 2016 Democratic National Convention is aggressively pro-transit. The RNC plank is not.

I don't think Brightline is viable at the end of the line and that they'll try to pass it back to Amtrak just like Penn Central and Auto Train and so many others have done. If I'm wrong and they succeed, I'll be the first to acknowledge they found a way to break the code. More power to them as long as the service is affordable for most Floridians.

Well privately owned rail organizations have succeeded in the past, just for the past several decade, they have not. Its not hard to see why: the competition is funded by taxes, and they've taken from every revenue source to fund it: property taxes, sales tax, income tax, gas tax, etc, so nobody knows  what the roads costs them, and they have to pay for the roads whether they want to use them or some other transit system. Given that, its easy to see why they've all failed.

In the past, some of our most successful transit systems were privately owned: NYC subway was originally run by private companies, and from my understanding, after several decades, they wanted to massively expand the system, and to fund it, hike rates, and the NYC government didn't want the rates to be hiked, so they bought it out to prevent the expansion and rate hike.

[gibby]

I think it will be a great success and I'm a strong backer of the Brightline effort.  Connecting to Tampa and figuring out this weird Disney issue will be key.  They hired an executive from CSX last week and he seems to really "get it", at least according to his Twitter feed.  Hopefully, he can help them make Tampa happen quickly.  I still wish they would figure out a way to use the existing CSX line and go straight to Tampa Union Station though.  My Amtrak train from Tampa a couple of months ago left late and we ended up getting into Orlando in 1:20 with stops in Lakeland and Kissimmee on existing infrastructure.  Improvements to that line could get it under 1:00 easily.  Figuring out the CSX freight re-route issue near Lakeland is the biggest complication but fixing that should still cost about $1bb or so less than laying entirely new track along I-4.  Giving Lakeland a downtown station and re-routing all freight away from downtown Lakeland would help get support, I think.  They could probably lay new track just to Disney and still keep the cost below the total I-4 to Tampa cost if they used the CSX line for Tampa.  It will be interesting to see how it all plays out, including the complicated Sunrail connection.

[spenser1058]

The Miami Herald asked 50 of Florida's movers and shakers what they believe we should do about transit:

http://amp.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/influencers/article214833315.html

[HankStrong]

So guys.  That train sounds cool, eh?

[jrs2]

Is there any news on Brightline, or is this going to turn into yet another red versus blue boxing match?

[aent]

44 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Is there any news on Brightline, or is this going to turn into yet another red versus blue boxing match?

Yup, Brightline announced the times for the 5 additional trains going to run every weekday for their service expansion starting August 1st. Will now run later into the night, and have service every hour except for a 2 hour gap midday now (they couldn't just run that one extra train so they could have continuous hourly service?). The trains start their day at 5:30am and end at 12:27am. Weekends remain every other hour,  Way better schedule then Sunrail now.

[HankStrong]

Bob O'Malley from CSX is headed over to the public affairs department for Brightline from CSX.

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2018/07/12/brightline-hires-csx-exec-as-orlando-to-tampa-high.html

He ran for the mayor of Altamonte Springs a few years ago and was very likeable when I crossed paths with him, but a dark horse who couldn't pull it off.  According to the article, he's supposed to be specifically working on the big push for the Tampa line.

Edited July 18, 2018 by HankStrong

[Dale]

On ‎7‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 9:34 PM, spenser1058 said:

Given your source was founded by an uberconservative, right-wing libertarian, I hardly think we should expect that to be an objective commentary. Please, by all means try again.

Why bother if you're going to shoot the messenger ?

[spenser1058]

When the source quoted is so out there even Wiki won't talk about it, that's kind of out there. If it's a news piece from the Wall Street Journal or even a reputable source like Chris Wallace or Brit Hume from FOX News, bring it on and we'll give it full attention.

[Dale]

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

When the source quoted is so out there even Wiki won't talk about it, that's kind of out there. If it's a news piece from the Wall Street Journal or even a reputable source like Chris Wallace or Brit Hume from FOX News, bring it on and we'll give it full attention.

If Wiki won't do it, doesn't that automatically make it credible ?

[spenser1058]

8 minutes ago, Dale said:

If Wiki won't do it, doesn't that automatically make it credible ?

You may have a point...

[I am Reality]

Martin & Indian River Counties' latest attempts to kill the Brightline bonds:

 

http://orlando-rising.com/martin-indian-river-counties-ask-federal-judge-stop-brightlines-bonds/

[codypet]

They have wasted so much money trying to kill it.  St. Lucie at least gave up before they continued to sink more money into it.

[gibby]

They could have invested that money in downtown properties which could someday have local rail service connecting to Brightline or with Brightline directly.  They also could have done rail crossing safety upgrades in their communities.  They've literally wasted millions on just nothing.

[HankStrong]

2 hours ago, gibby said:

They've literally wasted millions on just nothing.

I think I mentioned this somewhere in this thread, but most of the original debate was based on an email that was forwarded among retirees full of blatant falsehoods like it taking some insane amount of time (some insane number like several minutes???) at each crossing and some hyper inflated decibel (like 3x the actual number) level of the horn and some inflated number of train crossings that isn't even possible.

It was a lot like the Jenny McCarthy autism "facts" that went around that you still can't wipe out with proven medical facts.

[codypet]

It was 7 minutes and it was followed by a video of an ambulance being held up by a freight train.  Along with the false statement that the passenger line was a front for adding more freight trains.   They could add more freight trains tomorrow and not require approval.  My understanding a lot of people who moved in the area were told that eventually all train tracks would be converted to bike trails, and now since it seems the opposite is happening, they're all up in arms.  KC Traylor who has been a figurehead for this movement said she grew concerned when she heard of the project and was concerned about the well being of her then 5 year old.  I'm concerned for the well being of her 5 year old too if his mom lets him play on the tracks.

[shardoon]

I am writing this from a hotel in Clearwater beach. Let me tell you all something, I have never had a good experience taking I4 to Tampa. I live in the DP area, so already in SW Orange. It has been years since I was able to make it to Tampa without traffic. Takes me on average 1.5 hours just to get to Ybor. Yesterday was a doozy with traffic. Took me 3.5 hours just to get to clearwater. If this train could get us to Tampa in under an hour and Tampa got off its rear end for connecting service to St Pete and CV Clearwater, I would totally use it. I4 is hell going to tampa.

[spenser1058]

I'm sticking with NSB - less traffic and cute surfers! Although I do miss grouper sammiches at Frenchy's in Clearwater.

Meanwhile, looks like the idea right now is a ferry to get across Tampa Bay.