Brightline Trains

[jrs2]

17 minutes ago, FLClarkKent said:

An OCCC stop for Brightline just doesn't make sense to me (and I don't have a dog in this particular hunt). 

A Disney stop makes some sense. Families take the train to Disney Spring, then transfer to their hotels on whatever system Disney puts into place. It could be practical.

But conventioneers taking a train to the OCCC? They'll do what exactly? Drag their suitcases through the concourses? Lug their suitcases down the street to whatever hotel they might be staying at? It doesn't seem practical, and if it's not practical, it won't work (at least not in large enough numbers). Plus, the people who work these conventions (the meeting planners, conference teams/staff, A/V professionals, etc.) won't use a train. Again, it just doesn't seem like a recipe for success.

well, in Chicago the El Train has a stop at O'Hare and a stop under McCormick Place.  Similar setup in The ATL with MARTA- Hartsfield to downtown.  The Chicago example is closer I think to this setup.  If you fly to Chicago for a convention, you more than likely take The El to McCormick and then walk or Uber it to one of three adjacent hotels.  You would be able to do the same thing here.  Dunno...

I get your point and the logistics once you get there, but one of the factors the convention industry looks at ala shows is direct connectivity to passenger rail.  If Chicago and Atlanta have it, and perhaps count Vegas as well, that means Orlando is at a marketing disadvantage.

On this subject, do we even know roughly where they are thinking a BL stop would otherwise be on I-Drive?  I remember with the prior HSR proposal, they were floating around these designs showing the interchange of I-Drive & 528 with a station and/or buildings built close to it on the north side- maybe near where the parking lot and Garage are across from the Hilton Orlando at Destination Parkway.

[spenser1058]

If Brightline is correct and there’s a $1 billion difference in route (or let’s say they’re highballing it and it’s only $750 million), we know Brightline ain’t paying it - they’ve already demonstrated by Orlando being the only center city being ignored (even Tampa’s station is likely to be in Ybor which isn’t that far from downtown) that they could care less about us.

We also know Universal and I-Drive are awful about paying for infrastructure.

Soooo… Orange County’s going to pay for it? I can’t wait to participate in that campaign. With each passing year, the good ol’ boys are losing control of that pot of tainted gold down there. And, unlike Buddy, Jerry will likely be the last of the old-school politicos who kowtow to the powers that be down there before he’s term-limited out.

As to transit being so important, it hasn’t been for 40 years. If MARTA’s such a prize, why isn’t the Georgia WCC leaving OCCC in the dust in terms of meetings?

This whole thing is a Tallahassee boondoggle so let Tallahassee pay for it.

 

[blt23]

1 hour ago, FLClarkKent said:

An OCCC stop for Brightline just doesn't make sense to me (and I don't have a dog in this particular hunt). 

A Disney stop makes some sense. Families take the train to Disney Spring, then transfer to their hotels on whatever system Disney puts into place. It could be practical.

But conventioneers taking a train to the OCCC? They'll do what exactly? Drag their suitcases through the concourses? Lug their suitcases down the street to whatever hotel they might be staying at? It doesn't seem practical, and if it's not practical, it won't work (at least not in large enough numbers). Plus, the people who work these conventions (the meeting planners, conference teams/staff, A/V professionals, etc.) won't use a train. Again, it just doesn't seem like a recipe for success.

In theory conventioneers could transfer to their hotels in the same way as families going to Disney, but in reality neither conventioneers or families will be excited about about a train to bus/shuttle transfer. 

From a transportation perspective, a Disney Springs stop and an OCCC stop are very similar. In both cases the stop would be relatively close to places where lots of people want to go, but neither would be close enough for most people to avoid a last mile transfer. So both would do well as intercity rail stops (where a last mile transfer is less of an issue), but would likely struggle attracting ridership as a local connection to the airport.

[Uncommon]

As much as I hate to admit, I think I agree with Spense that this entire project seems boondoggleish. The concern is the last mile in either stop (Disney, Universal, or OCCC). It’s far too hot or rainy 6 months out of the year for the last mile to be anything other then a giant inconvenience.

I love the idea of rail in Orlando, but unless it’s light rail, I don’t see it being practical.

[spenser1058]

5 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

As much as I hate to admit, I think I agree with Spense that this entire project seems boondoggleish. The concern is the last mile in either stop (Disney, Universal, or OCCC). It’s far too hot or rainy 6 months out of the year for the last mile to be anything other then a giant inconvenience.

I love the idea of rail in Orlando, but unless it’s light rail, I don’t see it being practical.

I definitely want rail, too, but this isn’t for us. We, as residents, aren’t even in the equation. Other cities wouldn’t accept this (except maybe Vegas and surely we’re better than that), so why should we. It’s the tourism cabal dictating to us just like they have to Daytona all these years but on a larger scale.

We can be more but it’s all up to us.

[Uncommon]

36 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

I definitely want rail, too, but this isn’t for us. We, as residents, aren’t even in the equation. Other cities wouldn’t accept this (except maybe Vegas and surely we’re better than that), so why should we. It’s the tourism cabal dictating to us just like they have to Daytona all these years but on a larger scale.

We can be more but it’s all up to us.

I’ve kind of given up hope of Orlando being a real city unfortunately. I hate the term “real city” but I’ve begun to  utilize it to mean real city amenities, like decent transportation, diversified economy with improving pay, cultural institutions, and  sustained, urban growth. With Orlando, I’ve always had the mentality that I’ll take whatever I can get, as sad as that sounds. But that being said, I’m planning to move to Tampa next year. In some respect, Tampa is behind Orlando in some real city amenities. But they seem to be trending in the right direction.

[spenser1058]

34 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

I’ve kind of given up hope of Orlando being a real city unfortunately. I hate the term “real city” but I’ve begun to  utilize it to mean real city amenities, like decent transportation, diversified economy with improving pay, cultural institutions, and  sustained, urban growth. With Orlando, I’ve always had the mentality that I’ll take whatever I can get, as sad as that sounds. But that being said, I’m planning to move to Tampa next year. In some respect, Tampa is behind Orlando in some real city amenities. But they seem to be trending in the right direction.

We just need to bring on the next generation of leadership and get Orlando moving again. The people in charge right now have handed control of the region to the theme parks and developers. That’s great for them but it’s not helping the majority of the community. So, we’re stagnating and making excuses instead of finding solutions.

[blt23]

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

I definitely want rail, too, but this isn’t for us. We, as residents, aren’t even in the equation. Other cities wouldn’t accept this (except maybe Vegas and surely we’re better than that), so why should we. It’s the tourism cabal dictating to us just like they have to Daytona all these years but on a larger scale.

We can be more but it’s all up to us.

If Brightline is serious about privately funding an intercity line along 417 then we should accept that, though. 

I hope Orange County doesn't get coerced into funding a tourist train while there are so many more local transit needs.

[jack]

On 10/8/2021 at 7:22 PM, spenser1058 said:

I definitely want rail, too, but this isn’t for us. We, as residents, aren’t even in the equation. Other cities wouldn’t accept this (except maybe Vegas and surely we’re better than that), so why should we. It’s the tourism cabal dictating to us just like they have to Daytona all these years but on a larger scale.

We can be more but it’s all up to us.

I would totally use this to travel down south. I wouldn't even change the station locations. The airport is perfect for me. The route going west does not make a difference. But if it does cost more for Universal preferred route, let them (universal) pay for it and the County had better not step in the make up the difference. 

[jrs2]

I read everybody's comments and they all make sense.  One argument is if the 528 route costs $750M then why not invest in an LRT with that money instead of re-routing the BL line?  And then it could benefit locals more so than tourists.

I think the logic here is that BL is planning to head west from OIA, and I-Drive is west of OIA, and since it is already heading west why not stop at the OCCC en route to WDW.  Regardless of the "type" of rail it is versus the "type" of rail that would work well within the city, it would be a lost opportunity for the OCCC, because BL is designing their route now, but there is no proposal for LRT or any expansion of Sunrail and won't be for quite some time.  Besides, if there was a stop at I-Drive, it would be on non-Disney property and could be stop for a future  LRT connection.  

I've been on I-Drive a lot over the past decade or so.  I see tourists rolling their luggage all the time to their hotels.  I've seen it in NYC and Chicago and SF and LA as well.  If you rent a car and self park in a City garage a few blocks away, you put your feet to the street.  Orlando shouldn't be any different if people exited  a BL stop at I-Drive.  The main difference here is that these hotel properties are way too campus-style spread out versus more compact and urban in design.  I see that and acknowledge that.  But my main focus is seeing the OCCC succeed.  It will do well with Epic Universe catering to show groups just down the street.  But  a BL stop would give the City an actual stop within the city grid like it is in SoFla in three places.  And it will allow conventioneers to check the "transit" option box when deciding on a venue with the most options.  

However I will say that since the advent of Uber and Lyft, travel patterns have changed in a lot of tourist cities.  So maybe it doesn't really matter as much anymore.  Spencer did make a good point about the GWCC.  And I know for a fact that OCCC has been  perceived as more desirable over the past twenty years or so over McCormick Place because of the Unions issue.  I'm all for ensuring people have jobs, but sometimes the Union involvement in the convention industry is a hindrance more than a benefit.

[dcluley98]

OCCC is not worth it anyway. Stop funneling dollars toward this boondoggle that is not driving actual local economic growth and put it into a connective light rail system between DT/CV, the Airport Intermodal, and UCF/Innovation Way.  

Convention centers are not economic drivers, they are similar to the theme parks and not worth spending public funds on. 

[aent]

On 10/8/2021 at 4:33 PM, FLClarkKent said:

But conventioneers taking a train to the OCCC? They'll do what exactly? Drag their suitcases through the concourses? Lug their suitcases down the street to whatever hotel they might be staying at? It doesn't seem practical, and if it's not practical, it won't work (at least not in large enough numbers). Plus, the people who work these conventions (the meeting planners, conference teams/staff, A/V professionals, etc.) won't use a train. Again, it just doesn't seem like a recipe for success.

Many hotels offer a shuttle service to the airport, there'd be little reason they couldn't offer it to the transit stop instead. Brightline also announced when they resume service post-COVID, they plan to offer an in-house operation of last mile transportation solutions, including offering a limited selection of buses, car sharing/vans that will be cheaper then Uber, bikes, golf carts, among other modes of transportation, so it may be included with the ticket, or a add on while you purchase the ticket.

Also I know a good number of people who would have went to a convention for a day at OCCC if it was easy and convenient. If you're going to comic con or the pool and spa show, for example, you may only want to go for the day, and if you can hop on the train, arrive refreshed and not tired from driving, Then when you're done for the day, you can also hop on the train, and even eat dinner on the way home, so it makes a bit of a tough driving day into an easy and relaxing day. Hell if a convention goer who lives in Miami wants to go home to be with their family for the night instead of staying at a hotel, it makes it similar cost and more realistic to do so.

 

Of course, its important to remember if our democrats in charge didn't fight the private industry tooth and nail, we'd already have a solution for the entire corridor: Globalvia and AMT both wanted to build a light rail or maglev train from the airport along the I-Drive corridor serveral years ago. Orange County said they wanted to do it themselves because they were worried ticket prices would be high so it wouldn't be used by poor workers, and the airport insisted that they pay them for lost revenue from car rentals, along with CFX insisted lost money from tolls along the roads that might not get used. If they just let them build that, we wouldn't have to be worrying about how people get to the hotels, whether Brightline goes along 417 or 528, or any of this. Maybe if Brightline does end up getting rerouted along 528, maybe they can try to get one of them back since they would only need to build from the OCCC station along I-Drive instead of all the way to the airport, and at least get CFX and GOAA uninvolved in that route. That might cut costs a little bit as well.

[jrs2]

7 hours ago, aent said:

Many hotels offer a shuttle service to the airport, there'd be little reason they couldn't offer it to the transit stop instead. Brightline also announced when they resume service post-COVID, they plan to offer an in-house operation of last mile transportation solutions, including offering a limited selection of buses, car sharing/vans that will be cheaper then Uber, bikes, golf carts, among other modes of transportation, so it may be included with the ticket, or a add on while you purchase the ticket.

Also I know a good number of people who would have went to a convention for a day at OCCC if it was easy and convenient. If you're going to comic con or the pool and spa show, for example, you may only want to go for the day, and if you can hop on the train, arrive refreshed and not tired from driving, Then when you're done for the day, you can also hop on the train, and even eat dinner on the way home, so it makes a bit of a tough driving day into an easy and relaxing day. Hell if a convention goer who lives in Miami wants to go home to be with their family for the night instead of staying at a hotel, it makes it similar cost and more realistic to do so.

 

Of course, its important to remember if our democrats in charge didn't fight the private industry tooth and nail, we'd already have a solution for the entire corridor: Globalvia and AMT both wanted to build a light rail or maglev train from the airport along the I-Drive corridor serveral years ago. Orange County said they wanted to do it themselves because they were worried ticket prices would be high so it wouldn't be used by poor workers, and the airport insisted that they pay them for lost revenue from car rentals, along with CFX insisted lost money from tolls along the roads that might not get used. If they just let them build that, we wouldn't have to be worrying about how people get to the hotels, whether Brightline goes along 417 or 528, or any of this. Maybe if Brightline does end up getting rerouted along 528, maybe they can try to get one of them back since they would only need to build from the OCCC station along I-Drive instead of all the way to the airport, and at least get CFX and GOAA uninvolved in that route. That might cut costs a little bit as well.

I think you missed the prior back and forth regarding political talk; to divert it to the Coffee House subforum/ thread(s).

On that note, I don't think it was a "democrat" issue rather than the GOAA (and Mears) wanting to preserve an income source while using the "experimental" technology argument to it's advantage in denying the AMT/Globalvia plan.  But I agree they should have allowed Globalvia to build their "plan B" system.  I don't think it was a backlash against a private company versus governmental project because BL was already in play.  I think it was about the money.  Think about it--GOAA negotiated the hec out of the BL deal and got them to build and pay rent for the Maintenance Facility on GOAA land...I believe 8 of 12 train sets will be stationed here.  Wow.  Talk about the ability to get a Miami entity, FEC, to agree to that.  It shows that there is "power" or "leveraging power" in Orlando within the state.  But the point is they got a good money investment from FEC on that deal; I think the risk with AMT would have been too great with not a whole lot of $$$ backing.  That's just my take.

[spenser1058]

7 hours ago, aent said:

Many hotels offer a shuttle service to the airport, there'd be little reason they couldn't offer it to the transit stop instead. Brightline also announced when they resume service post-COVID, they plan to offer an in-house operation of last mile transportation solutions, including offering a limited selection of buses, car sharing/vans that will be cheaper then Uber, bikes, golf carts, among other modes of transportation, so it may be included with the ticket, or a add on while you purchase the ticket.

Also I know a good number of people who would have went to a convention for a day at OCCC if it was easy and convenient. If you're going to comic con or the pool and spa show, for example, you may only want to go for the day, and if you can hop on the train, arrive refreshed and not tired from driving, Then when you're done for the day, you can also hop on the train, and even eat dinner on the way home, so it makes a bit of a tough driving day into an easy and relaxing day. Hell if a convention goer who lives in Miami wants to go home to be with their family for the night instead of staying at a hotel, it makes it similar cost and more realistic to do so.

 

Of course, its important to remember if our democrats in charge didn't fight the private industry tooth and nail, we'd already have a solution for the entire corridor: Globalvia and AMT both wanted to build a light rail or maglev train from the airport along the I-Drive corridor serveral years ago. Orange County said they wanted to do it themselves because they were worried ticket prices would be high so it wouldn't be used by poor workers, and the airport insisted that they pay them for lost revenue from car rentals, along with CFX insisted lost money from tolls along the roads that might not get used. If they just let them build that, we wouldn't have to be worrying about how people get to the hotels, whether Brightline goes along 417 or 528, or any of this. Maybe if Brightline does end up getting rerouted along 528, maybe they can try to get one of them back since they would only need to build from the OCCC station along I-Drive instead of all the way to the airport, and at least get CFX and GOAA uninvolved in that route. That might cut costs a little bit as well.

If the Republicans in charge didn’t fight common sense tooth and nail, we would have had light rail a decade before Globalvia and AMT ever thought about Orlando (and wouldn’t overcharge for the privilege like Brightline is doing relative to Amtrak for intercity service) and we’d already have HSR to Tampa.

1 minute ago, spenser1058 said:

If the Republicans in charge didn’t fight common sense tooth and nail, we would have had light rail a decade before Globalvia and AMT ever thought about Orlando (and wouldn’t overcharge for the privilege like Brightline is doing relative to Amtrak for intercity service) and we’d already have HSR to Tampa.

What’s also funny is the GOP controlled the county commission during that time and the OIA board is mostly appointed  by the (Republican) governor and has been for almost a quarter of a century. Repainting the barn, aren’t we? 

[jrs2]

35 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

If the Republicans in charge didn’t fight common sense tooth and nail, we would have had light rail a decade before Globalvia and AMT ever thought about Orlando (and wouldn’t overcharge for the privilege like Brightline is doing relative to Amtrak for intercity service) and we’d already have HSR to Tampa.

What’s also funny is the GOP controlled the county commission during that time and the OIA board is mostly appointed  by the (Republican) governor and has been for almost a quarter of a century. Repainting the barn, aren’t we? 

damnit, Spenser, I already addressed the politics issue in my response to aent, but you just can't help yourself.

HSR to Tamps- studies showed the leg from OIA to WDW would make most of the money and the leg from WDW to Tampa would likely fail, with the State picking up the tab.  this was, as a first and probably only leg of an HSR system, a train to nowhere with it dumping you off north of the Tampa courthouse.   

[aent]

23 hours ago, jrs2 said:

I think you missed the prior back and forth regarding political talk; to divert it to the Coffee House subforum/ thread(s).

On that note, I don't think it was a "democrat" issue rather than the GOAA (and Mears) wanting to preserve an income source while using the "experimental" technology argument to it's advantage in denying the AMT/Globalvia plan.  But I agree they should have allowed Globalvia to build their "plan B" system.  I don't think it was a backlash against a private company versus governmental project because BL was already in play.  I think it was about the money.  Think about it--GOAA negotiated the hec out of the BL deal and got them to build and pay rent for the Maintenance Facility on GOAA land...I believe 8 of 12 train sets will be stationed here.  Wow.  Talk about the ability to get a Miami entity, FEC, to agree to that.  It shows that there is "power" or "leveraging power" in Orlando within the state.  But the point is they got a good money investment from FEC on that deal; I think the risk with AMT would have been too great with not a whole lot of $$$ backing.  That's just my take.

I've been busy with work so I missed that (although the main reason I even bother is spenser interjects political junk into every thread so I feel there should be something to counter that, I see he still hasn't stopped). Hopefully spenser will comply and I'll be happy to as well.

I don't see why they stopped AMT from building their system over reliability: when that concern was brought up, AMT proposed and agreed to post a bond prior to construction guaranteeing their system would be functional and have a certain reliability rate within 5 years. If it wasn't, a bond for the cost of removal of the system would be paid out to the county as a penalty, and the county could have been given ownership to either try to fix the problems, or convert it to something else . or perhaps just as a penalty and let them keep going and presumably try to fix it.

I think the airport views Brightline has an opportunity to increase revenue: once passengers disembark there, they're going to have to use either ridesharing, a car rental, buses, airport parking, or a plane, all of which they charge fees for. The purpose of the maglev system was to give people an alternative to those options, thus it'd be hurting revenue. I don't think they believe a whole lot of people are going to fly to MCO with the intention of going to South Florida, and avoiding paying some sort of transportation fee, but even if they do, they're charging Brightline a fair amount of money.

[jrs2]

On 10/14/2021 at 6:08 PM, aent said:

I've been busy with work so I missed that (although the main reason I even bother is spenser interjects political junk into every thread so I feel there should be something to counter that, I see he still hasn't stopped). Hopefully spenser will comply and I'll be happy to as well.

I don't see why they stopped AMT from building their system over reliability: when that concern was brought up, AMT proposed and agreed to post a bond prior to construction guaranteeing their system would be functional and have a certain reliability rate within 5 years. If it wasn't, a bond for the cost of removal of the system would be paid out to the county as a penalty, and the county could have been given ownership to either try to fix the problems, or convert it to something else . or perhaps just as a penalty and let them keep going and presumably try to fix it.

I think the airport views Brightline has an opportunity to increase revenue: once passengers disembark there, they're going to have to use either ridesharing, a car rental, buses, airport parking, or a plane, all of which they charge fees for. The purpose of the maglev system was to give people an alternative to those options, thus it'd be hurting revenue. I don't think they believe a whole lot of people are going to fly to MCO with the intention of going to South Florida, and avoiding paying some sort of transportation fee, but even if they do, they're charging Brightline a fair amount of money.

who was supposed to operate the AMT Maglev or similar project?  Maybe this had something to do with them nixing it.

[spenser1058]

Tony Morris has a long undistinguished background of trying to push his maglev ideas on FDOT and anyone else who wanted to listen for decades. It was a joke (Oak Hill -really?) not only from the beginning in Florida but other projects he tried to push in Georgia and Virginia (God knows, there were probably others) were just a mess.

The powers that be learned not to take his nonsense seriously and it didn’t get better when he tried to bring in European partners.

Hopefully, he finally got his act together but I readily understand why that dog wouldn’t hunt.

[blt23]

Ticket search on Brightline's website suggests that the Miami to WPB segment will restart service on November 1st.

[jrs2]

^^

Below is a series of articles documenting a chronology of recent rail initiatives here in CFLA since Sunrail began development.  Regarding AMT Maglev, I think the big problem with Morris is that he didn't have a major in-state RR company worth $$$billions or more heading up  or backing the project, like FEC which developed BL. 

Aside from that, having a test track in a low rent part of VoCo- what's wrong with that?  Was he supposed to instead be somewhere in high rent Silicon Valley to get more street cred?  I think if the Fed came through in 2003 with their Old Dominion project it would have been a different story altogether.  

Aent made some interesting points about the Maglev proposal earlier.  But here is a partial timeline of rail events regarding HSR, Maglev, and Brightline.  See below:

February 2, 2011- Scott reviews Sunrail deal

     https://www.orlandosentinel.com/opinion/os-xpm-2011-02-02-os-ed-sunrail-020211-20110201-story.html

February 16, 2011- Scott nixes HSR funds

     https://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-rail/florida-governor-slams-brakes-on-high-speed-rail-idUSTRE71F3ZH20110216

March 28, 2012- FEC announces All Aboard Fla (BL) Miami to Orlando (OIA)

     https://www.railwaygazette.com/passenger/all-aboard-florida-plan-announced/36797.article

December 17, 2012- Metroplan Orlando approves Maglev proposal

     https://www.businessinsider.com/orlando-to-built-mag-lev-train-2012-12

May 20, 2014- FDOT grants lease to AMT for ROW down 528

     https://www.pilotonline.com/inside-business/article_83500ded-a43f-59a1-97b2-87b3bd08b69e.html

March, 2015- British firm plans to build cars for AMT

     https://www.pilotonline.com/inside-business/article_83500ded-a43f-59a1-97b2-87b3bd08b69e.html

May 27, 2015- article on Maglev proposal

     https://www.floridatrend.com/article/18516/still-hovering-tony-morris-pushes-maglev-trains

June 2017-  Maglev proposal not moving forward (Globalvia would not agree to the terms of the fees with the airport and the state)

     https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2017/06/22/orlandos-maglev-deal-derailed-here-s-why-and-what.html

2018- WESH article from Nov 24, 2020 states that BL has been working on a deal for a Disney station since 2018

     https://www.wesh.com/article/disney-brightline-high-speed-rail/34758418

There was an article in Atlanta about Maglev and a proposal there during the past 6-7  years as well.  I think what killed it more so than anything was the "risk" factor with a newly applied technology when hard dollars are or were at stake.  What's really interesting is that the AMT proposal was being considered side by side with the actual development of Brightline, and it could have provided that "final mile" as they say from OIA to I-Drive.   I think GOAA was all about the $$$ as was seen with their negotiations with FEC on the maintenance facility.  And, Globalvia was not willing to give them the cut they wanted (because at the end of the day, Globalvia was in it to make $$$) and it did not make financial sense for them to move forward, even with LRT from OIA to I-Drive.

And on that note, even BL saw the "deal" with Disney for a station and the use of the 417 easement as a cheaper way to get to Disney and to Tampa for this leg of their system.  In their eyes, the sheer number of people that Disney draws far outpaces the I-Drive/Universal numbers and they are all about the numbers; because numbers = $$$. 

 

[spenser1058]

33 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

^^

Below is a series of articles documenting a chronology of recent rail initiatives here in CFLA since Sunrail began development.  Regarding AMT Maglev, I think the big problem with Morris is that he didn't have a major in-state RR company worth $$$billions or more heading up  or backing the project, like FEC which developed BL. 

Aside from that, having a test track in a low rent part of VoCo- what's wrong with that?  Was he supposed to instead be somewhere in high rent Silicon Valley to get more street cred?  I think if the Fed came through in 2003 with their Old Dominion project it would have been a different story altogether.  

Aent made some interesting points about the Maglev proposal earlier.  But here is a partial timeline of rail events regarding HSR, Maglev, and Brightline.  See below:

February 2, 2011- Scott reviews Sunrail deal

     https://www.orlandosentinel.com/opinion/os-xpm-2011-02-02-os-ed-sunrail-020211-20110201-story.html

February 16, 2011- Scott nixes HSR funds

     https://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-rail/florida-governor-slams-brakes-on-high-speed-rail-idUSTRE71F3ZH20110216

March 28, 2012- FEC announces All Aboard Fla (BL) Miami to Orlando (OIA)

     https://www.railwaygazette.com/passenger/all-aboard-florida-plan-announced/36797.article

December 17, 2012- Metroplan Orlando approves Maglev proposal

     https://www.businessinsider.com/orlando-to-built-mag-lev-train-2012-12

May 20, 2014- FDOT grants lease to AMT for ROW down 528

     https://www.pilotonline.com/inside-business/article_83500ded-a43f-59a1-97b2-87b3bd08b69e.html

March, 2015- British firm plans to build cars for AMT

     https://www.pilotonline.com/inside-business/article_83500ded-a43f-59a1-97b2-87b3bd08b69e.html

May 27, 2015- article on Maglev proposal

     https://www.floridatrend.com/article/18516/still-hovering-tony-morris-pushes-maglev-trains

June 2017-  Maglev proposal not moving forward (Globalvia would not agree to the terms of the fees with the airport and the state)

     https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2017/06/22/orlandos-maglev-deal-derailed-here-s-why-and-what.html

2018- WESH article from Nov 24, 2020 states that BL has been working on a deal for a Disney station since 2018

     https://www.wesh.com/article/disney-brightline-high-speed-rail/34758418

There was an article in Atlanta about Maglev and a proposal there during the past 6-7  years as well.  I think what killed it more so than anything was the "risk" factor with a newly applied technology when hard dollars are or were at stake.  What's really interesting is that the AMT proposal was being considered side by side with the actual development of Brightline, and it could have provided that "final mile" as they say from OIA to I-Drive.   I think GOAA was all about the $$$ as was seen with their negotiations with FEC on the maintenance facility.  And, Globalvia was not willing to give them the cut they wanted (because at the end of the day, Globalvia was in it to make $$$) and it did not make financial sense for them to move forward, even with LRT from OIA to I-Drive.

And on that note, even BL saw the "deal" with Disney for a station and the use of the 417 easement as a cheaper way to get to Disney and to Tampa for this leg of their system.  In their eyes, the sheer number of people that Disney draws far outpaces the I-Drive/Universal numbers and they are all about the numbers; because numbers = $$$. 

 

As with most things political, it all gets back to trust. No one locally (or in Atlanta for that matter and in Virginia they just got burned) ever had trust in Tony Morris. 

As for FDOT, if it doesn’t line the pockets of people like Rick Scott, it simply doesn’t happen any more. Whether it be transit, SunPass or the unemployment system, it’s not about effective governance with these guys, it’s just about the money. 

No, Florida’s government hasn’t always been that way, but the days of St. Reubin the Good cleaning things up are gone. For those of us who once saw how things could work, it’s been unfortunate.

 

[jrs2]

18 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

As with most things political, it all gets back to trust. No one locally (or in Atlanta for that matter and in Virginia they just got burned) ever had trust in Tony Morris. 

As for FDOT, if it doesn’t line the pockets of people like Rick Scott, it simply doesn’t happen any more. Whether it be transit, SunPass or the unemployment system, it’s not about effective governance with these guys, it’s just about the money. 

No, Florida’s government hasn’t always been that way, but the days of St. Reubin the Good cleaning things up are gone. For those of us who once saw how things could work, it’s been unfortunate.

 

Spenser, it has ALWAYS been about the money, no matter how you try to sugar coat it to convince yourself that the people you once held in high esteem (or still do) from seemingly better times in the past did it better than everyone else since. 

You can name drop Rick Scott, but he pales in comparison to the goings on in The Windy City for the past century.  And I have a history and major ties with that town so I know what goes on there on a daily (not to be mistaken with Daley) basis.    

With regard to AMT, once Globalvia stepped in, Tony Morris was more or less a non-factor. Trust, shmust, it was Globalvia per those articles I linked above that did not want to pay the fees GOAA was demanding.  Now, maybe GOAA hiked those numbers extra high knowing Globalvia and Morris would balk for the reasons you stated. 

[spenser1058]

13 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Spenser, it has ALWAYS been about the money, no matter how you try to sugar coat it to convince yourself that the people you once held in high esteem (or still do) from seemingly better times in the past did it better than everyone else since. 

You can name drop Rick Scott, but he pales in comparison to the goings on in The Windy City for the past century.  And I have a history and major ties with that town so I know what goes on there on a daily (not to be mistaken with Daley) basis.    

With regard to AMT, once Globalvia stepped in, Tony Morris was more or less a non-factor. Trust, shmust, it was Globalvia per those articles I linked above that did not want to pay the fees GOAA was demanding.  Now, maybe GOAA hiked those numbers extra high knowing Globalvia and Morris would balk for the reasons you stated. 

Sure there are states like Illinois which have always had problems with graft. But there are states that run relatively clean. Florida began cleaning up its act with LeRoy Collins and had an amazing run with amazing progress for several decades. Not only were the Urban Democrats committed to improvements but Republicans as well, like Dan Webster and Toni Jennings when they ran the Legislature and Lou Frey in Congress. If you always assume government can only be dirty, that’s all you’ll ever get and the people of the state are simply ignored like they are now. We can do better but we have to try.

 

[jrs2]

18 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Sure there are states like Illinois which have always had problems with graft. But there are states that run relatively clean. Florida began cleaning up its act with LeRoy Collins and had an amazing run with amazing progress for several decades. Not only were the Urban Democrats committed to improvements but Republicans as well, like Dan Webster and Toni Jennings when they ran the Legislature and Lou Frey in Congress. If you always assume government can only be dirty, that’s all you’ll ever get and the people of the state are simply ignored like they are now. We can do better but we have to try.

 

The other 49 are no different than Illinois.  But the notion that government is only dirty when the OTHER party is involved is a fairy tale that is strictly for voters and donors.   

On that note, there could have been certain demands made of Globalvia to approve Maglev, but there's no way to really know unless you were there.  But we do know that Mears has been a major player in Orlando and OIA since the '60's. 

But that's usually how these types of deals happen, whether it's a train, a paving contract, a bridge contract, etc.  And I didn't even bring up the unions.  Locally, we've already beaten the Brightline/ HSR horse to a pulp on that issue and even the CSX/Sunrail horse before it.  And even today with the BL leg from OIA to WDW to Tampa ala SR 417 there's undoubtedly "stuff" going on that's not discussed in open while Hunter's Creek residents star in testimonial videos.

[spenser1058]

3 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

The other 49 are no different than Illinois.  But the notion that government is only dirty when the OTHER party is involved is a fairy tale that is strictly for voters and donors.   

On that note, there could have been certain demands made of Globalvia to approve Maglev, but there's no way to really know unless you were there.  But we do know that Mears has been a major player in Orlando and OIA since the '60's. 

But that's usually how these types of deals happen, whether it's a train, a paving contract, a bridge contract, etc.  And I didn't even bring up the unions.  Locally, we've already beaten the Brightline/ HSR horse to a pulp on that issue and even the CSX/Sunrail horse before it.  And even today with the BL leg from OIA to WDW to Tampa ala SR 417 there's undoubtedly "stuff" going on that's not discussed in open while Hunter's Creek residents star in testimonial videos.

Having worked in state legislatures for many years, I know that’s not true. I also observed above there have been honest, effective Republicans in charge here before.

We knew Rick Scott was beyond corrupt before he ever ran - good heavens, even the Frists at HCA wanted nothing to do with him and one of them was the GOP Majority Leader in the Senate.