Brightline Trains

[jrs2]

17 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

Last I heard the BrightLine tracks are separate from the SunRail tracks.  They are looking at building a 3rd track on section of the CSX easement for Brightline to go on in Meadow Woods and will have the ability for a platform for the North South SunRail to connect to the new track. 

I still have not seen any plan for a SunRail Phase 3 plan to connect to the airport that is concrete. I have ONLY ever seen feasibility studies and what-if stories. 

SunRail and BrightLine did do an agreement (Resolution of Support mutually) to study cooperation to operate BrightLine on the current CSX corridor and vice versa. This would mean that SunRail rolling stock would run on BL trackage but the track would be a separated line with a cross platform stop at Meadow Woods and SunRail would have to have a platform/station created at the InterModal Terminal C created for them to be able to utilize that route.  The gauge is the same, so they could theoretically use the track corridor, but need other things to happen for that to occur.  Mainly, new platforms to fit the SunRail stock, an agreement on timing/frequency of trains so that they can accomplish the service goals with increased traffic, and an integrated Automatic Train Control program to make it all work. 

Additionally, they are trying to figure out who would actually run the SunRail trains. SunRail was supposed to be handed over previously to a different operator, and we don't know who yet. There was an option that BrightLine could take over operation of a portion of SunRail that would be on their tracks, so it would be an entirely separate line, with a cross platform station at Meadow Woods, but utilize SunRail name, service frequency, and livery (and likely rolling stock).  If they went that route, however, they could just buy new rolling stock similar to that of the BL trains with the correct platform height but with SunRail Livery. (that seems to make sense to me as it would seem to me they would need more trains than they currently have for a service of that nature. )

The mayor said that they wanted to have a goal of SunRail serving the airport with a direct connection from downtown, but I have yet to see any concrete plan for that. (there is space for a separate station in the ITF, but no plan on what the track would be and how to connect it to the current North/South line).  The biggest obstacle to these connections is the ROW/land cost of securing corridors, so it makes sense for them to use the same corridor if possible. 

 

Do we know what ever happened with the OUC easement deal that would have cost Sunrail Phase 3 $200M+ for a direct connect to the Intermodal Center?  I mean, the BL Maintenance Facility connects to that line directly right near where Boggy Creek Road intersects with it; and they must have paid OUC for the rights to transport that train over a couple weeks back, right?  So, isn't that spur what BL would use to get to Meadow Woods Station?

[AmIReal]

Miami Brightline related- their parent company, FEC, has filed for an estopple letter to end the building process on twin 83 story towers at the MiamiCentral site. The property is being sold. https://www.thenextmiami.com/brightline-parent-finalizing-sale-of-site-where-two-83-story-supertowers-just-approved/

[AmIReal]

I didn't know I'd be interested in watching a slow moving train for 10 minutes, but I found this oddly soothing.

Brightline Construction: First Train Across the New Crane Creek Bridge - February 20, 2022

 

[jrs2]

 

[AmIReal]

I knew Brightline had bought property in Cocoa for a proposed station, but this story puts a little more meat on the topic I was not aware of... “Ridership is an art as well as a science. And so, the science will tell us when we get to OIA (Orlando International Airport) and stabilize because it takes about three years to stabilize once you open up a station,” Kefauver said. “People know who you are, what you’re doing and how they’re going to get from point A to point B. So, we’re going to have that data, and it’s going to come about.”

also, "the company is also developing a station somewhere in the area of the Treasure Coast. “That’s still being determined by the local elected officials between a few of the counties. We have an agreement with them that we would explore that and have a station operational by five years after we begin operations up to Orlando,”

https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2022/05/26/brightline-land-purchase-could-indicate-future-cocoa-station-down-the-tracks

How many stops do they envision between Miami and Tampa and how long will that take?

[spenser1058]

13 hours ago, AmIReal said:

I knew Brightline had bought property in Cocoa for a proposed station, but this story puts a little more meat on the topic I was not aware of... “Ridership is an art as well as a science. And so, the science will tell us when we get to OIA (Orlando International Airport) and stabilize because it takes about three years to stabilize once you open up a station,” Kefauver said. “People know who you are, what you’re doing and how they’re going to get from point A to point B. So, we’re going to have that data, and it’s going to come about.”

also, "the company is also developing a station somewhere in the area of the Treasure Coast. “That’s still being determined by the local elected officials between a few of the counties. We have an agreement with them that we would explore that and have a station operational by five years after we begin operations up to Orlando,”

https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2022/05/26/brightline-land-purchase-could-indicate-future-cocoa-station-down-the-tracks

How many stops do they envision between Miami and Tampa and how long will that take?

Stops slow down travel times more than anything else when the underlying infrastructure is not at issue, which of course it isn’t on Brightline.

It definitely is a factor on Amtrak between Orlando and Tampa because of stops in Kissimmee and Lakeland.

We’ll learn a lot about Brightline’s end game on this as the fate of these stations plays out. The company’s justification with investors on this was the value of the urban real estate surrounding the stations.

The unanswered question has always been, what happens when that is built out and if the rail portion is unprofitable (which it has been so far and given that has been the case even in places like Europe where train use is much higher than in the US: private passenger train service was rarely profitable in the US either- government subsidies in the form of free land out west got it going along with lots of financial scandals - in fact, the only moment of profitable service came during WWII when the government was moving troops around). It’s no wonder the major railroads were happy to dump passenger service in the ‘70’s. 

The good news is that, even if this eventually plays out the way it always has, Amtrak can probably negotiate a deal to finally gain the access from which it has always been prohibited - FECRR tracks. It is preposterous that the line by which Henry Flagler built Florida (even if he ended up penniless) hasn’t carried passengers through some of the most populous part of the state for fifty years. It’s worth noting Brightline’s holding company has played the bankruptcy game before. Meanwhile, there’s nothing to do but wait.
 

Edited May 30, 2022 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

On 5/29/2022 at 9:25 PM, AmIReal said:

I knew Brightline had bought property in Cocoa for a proposed station, but this story puts a little more meat on the topic I was not aware of... “Ridership is an art as well as a science. And so, the science will tell us when we get to OIA (Orlando International Airport) and stabilize because it takes about three years to stabilize once you open up a station,” Kefauver said. “People know who you are, what you’re doing and how they’re going to get from point A to point B. So, we’re going to have that data, and it’s going to come about.”

also, "the company is also developing a station somewhere in the area of the Treasure Coast. “That’s still being determined by the local elected officials between a few of the counties. We have an agreement with them that we would explore that and have a station operational by five years after we begin operations up to Orlando,”

https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2022/05/26/brightline-land-purchase-could-indicate-future-cocoa-station-down-the-tracks

How many stops do they envision between Miami and Tampa and how long will that take?

makes sense... the three year "rule."

I saw another video where they are showing the construction of Boca and Aventura stations.  So that will be five stations in SoFla before the train can get away and open it up on the open track. I think those other two stations at Boca Town Center and Aventura Mall will open around the same time as the OIA line.  They're dumping money into those; they have station buildings with skywalks across Biscayne to the tracks/platform.  That's the perk of having a homegrown rail mega-company.

IMO, you would almost have to have those stations where they are; SoFLa is too big linearly.  However if the track was instead going due west and shadowing I-75 or Calle Ocho to Naples then that would be a no brainer to not have stations in between.  

UNLESS you treat it like going on a flight; you gotta drive to MIA to get on that plane no matter how you slice it.  But, flights are different b/c you are going 500+ mph in the air; you're not doubling back on land you just drove on.

[AmIReal]

"Central Florida will get federal grant funds to make possible a shared Brighline/SunRail corridor that connects with International Drive." Per OBJ.

"up to $15.88 million from the U.S. Department of Transportation Consolidated Rail Infrastructure and Safety Improvements Grant Program. The funds will be used for the shared corridor in Orlando, as well as Brightline's proposed Tampa expansion from Orlando."

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2022/06/01/brightline-orlando-central-florida-rail-expansion.html

 

[KnightBay]

3 hours ago, AmIReal said:

"Central Florida will get federal grant funds to make possible a shared Brighline/SunRail corridor that connects with International Drive." Per OBJ.

"up to $15.88 million from the U.S. Department of Transportation Consolidated Rail Infrastructure and Safety Improvements Grant Program. The funds will be used for the shared corridor in Orlando, as well as Brightline's proposed Tampa expansion from Orlando."

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2022/06/01/brightline-orlando-central-florida-rail-expansion.html

 

What exactly is the $15 million supposed to fund? More studies? That amount of money won’t build much.

[AmIReal]

1 hour ago, KnightBay said:

What exactly is the $15 million supposed to fund? More studies? That amount of money won’t build much.

Yes, studies, per OS, "for early environmental, construction and cost studies needed to install rail service from east of Orlando’s airport to the International Drive and theme park district and on to Tampa". Also, Brightline is matching that amount. It is up to the community to fund the billion or so for the project, although, there are other grant proposals they will seek to build it as per OS, "That plan will be the basis for seeking grants for hundreds of millions of dollars in additional federal money."

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/transportation/os-ne-federal-grant-orlando-tampa-rail-20220601-jxladqanirdcpij3eobgu53iiu-story.html

I agree $30+million is not much for the project, but it is $30+million they didn't have. Particularly useful at this early phase.

 

[codypet]

15 hours ago, KnightBay said:

What exactly is the $15 million supposed to fund? More studies? That amount of money won’t build much.

1 bridge.

[smileguy]

On 5/31/2022 at 11:23 AM, jrs2 said:

makes sense... the three year "rule."

I saw another video where they are showing the construction of Boca and Aventura stations.  So that will be five stations in SoFla before the train can get away and open it up on the open track. I think those other two stations at Boca Town Center and Aventura Mall will open around the same time as the OIA line.  They're dumping money into those; they have station buildings with skywalks across Biscayne to the tracks/platform.  That's the perk of having a homegrown rail mega-company.

IMO, you would almost have to have those stations where they are; SoFLa is too big linearly.  However if the track was instead going due west and shadowing I-75 or Calle Ocho to Naples then that would be a no brainer to not have stations in between.  

UNLESS you treat it like going on a flight; you gotta drive to MIA to get on that plane no matter how you slice it.  But, flights are different b/c you are going 500+ mph in the air; you're not doubling back on land you just drove on.

One solution would be to do local/express routes, where there is a transfer point so the Orlando/Tampa bound trains would only stop at Miami, the northernmost city in South FL, and on to Orlando. It may be a two-seat ride for some, but there would be increased retail opportunities at those transfers and they could justify different service frequencies for the different routes. 

[jrs2]

23 minutes ago, smileguy said:

One solution would be to do local/express routes, where there is a transfer point so the Orlando/Tampa bound trains would only stop at Miami, the northernmost city in South FL, and on to Orlando. It may be a two-seat ride for some, but there would be increased retail opportunities at those transfers and they could justify different service frequencies for the different routes. 

...and they could charge more for that time saving luxury...

15 hours ago, AmIReal said:

Yes, studies, per OS, "for early environmental, construction and cost studies needed to install rail service from east of Orlando’s airport to the International Drive and theme park district and on to Tampa". Also, Brightline is matching that amount. It is up to the community to fund the billion or so for the project, although, there are other grant proposals they will seek to build it as per OS, "That plan will be the basis for seeking grants for hundreds of millions of dollars in additional federal money."

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/transportation/os-ne-federal-grant-orlando-tampa-rail-20220601-jxladqanirdcpij3eobgu53iiu-story.html

I agree $30+million is not much for the project, but it is $30+million they didn't have. Particularly useful at this early phase.

so that is a good thing, then, that they are giving that money for the studies (wouldn't you think that if it was a "dead" plan they wouldn't waste the money?- oh wait, it's the Fed).

Actually that's really good b/c now the Sunshine Route or whatever is on the books for Fed $$$ thru this initial phase of money for the study.

[HankStrong]

4 hours ago, smileguy said:

One solution would be to do local/express routes, where there is a transfer point so the Orlando/Tampa bound trains would only stop at Miami, the northernmost city in South FL, and on to Orlando. It may be a two-seat ride for some, but there would be increased retail opportunities at those transfers and they could justify different service frequencies for the different routes. 

That's exactly what will happen.

You can buy an express Orlando to Miami ticket for a little price hike OR you can take the regular train for the normal prices.  Sometimes express trains aren't even more expensive at all, just much less frequent.

[HankStrong]

This isn't specifically BL-related, but it is BL-adjacent so I'll put it here.

A friend of ours really wants to go on an Alaskan land/sea cruise.  She's been wanting to go for nearly 20 years now.  Her husband is a great guy, but absolutely will not fly no matter what.  He will not.  She's been to Europe with her sister and South America with her friends, but when they travel together it has to be close enough to drive.  They went to the Grand Canyon once, but they lived in East Texas at the time so it wasn't as bad as Florida.  For their 25th anniversary, she's really trying to get him to go on that cruise.  He likes cruising and they do it regularly out of Florida ports.  But he is insistent that they can't fly to board an Alaskan cruise.

• Driving was her first thought.  However, it's 3,200+ miles and about 48 hours of actual driving.  They could split it and stay on the road for 48 straight hours (not likely for anyone) or divide it into four 12-hour driving days.  That would be 8 days on the road.
• A train was her second thought because at least you could get a sleeper car and could arrive rested.  Not only was it going to cost nearly $3,000 for a sleeper car to Seattle (the train is actually still closed crossing the border) it's still 110 hours of train with 2 train changes along the way with multiple hour layovers in those 2 cities and you have to take a 2-3 hour bus trip to Vancouver at the end.  It was basically 6 days each direction.  You leave from Orlando or Winter Park and ride one train to Cary, NC.  Then another train to Chicago and then another train to Seattle and a bus to Vancouver.  

So, it looks like that option is off the table for now.

 

 

The Amtrak system isn't a valid travel option.  We need train-based legitimate travel options in this country.  

Edited June 17, 2022 by HankStrong

[shardoon]

Drive up to Toronto and pick up the trans canada rail. It will be pricey, but a vacation in itself with amazing views and meals. Problem is, the return will cost just as much.  There are discounted cabins for 2. 

https://www.viarail.ca/en

You will go through the Canadian rockies.....Banff.....something on my bucket list

[dcluley98]

Tracks are complete and the first BrightLine test train has made the full trip to the OIA Intermodal Station: 

 

[shardoon]

On 6/24/2022 at 7:05 PM, dcluley98 said:

Tracks are complete and the first BrightLine test train has made the full trip to the OIA Intermodal Station: 

 

Tracks are not complete. Rails have not been laid down for a good portion of the 528 route. 

[dcluley98]

You are right. The  video said tracks are complete for the western portion to the airport from the maintenance facility. 

 

The tracks on the main route next to the beachline are not yet done.

 

Sorry, I misinterpreted the video when first posted. 

[jrs2]

14 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

You are right. The  video said tracks are complete for the western portion to the airport from the maintenance facility. 

 

The tracks on the main route next to the beachline are not yet done.

 

Sorry, I misinterpreted the video when first posted. 

yeah. I saw that video last week on my cell but crewed the pooch and didn't post it.

I did google maps and noticed that there is a lot of easement work still underway in Brevard.

[Uncommon]

Walt Disney World's plans for a Brightline high-speed rail station have derailed.

A representative with Disney confirmed to Orlando Business Journal that the plans for a station, announced in 2019, to connect to the multibillion-dollar Brightline project are no more.

“As many people who are involved in this project are aware, the new route configuration does not support a Disney Springs station and as a result, we don’t anticipate being part of this project," Disney spokesperson Avery Maehrertold Orlando Business Journal.

The company did not share any other details.

Executives with Brightline were not available for comment.

Brightline's current route is expected to take it along State Road 528 and Taft-Vineland Road — through the International Drive corridor — and down Interstate 4. Its previous route — when Disney first announced its involvement — had the train heading down State Road 417 and bypassing the tourist corridor.

That 417 route drew heavy criticism from multiple parties, including residents of the Hunter's Creek community and I-Drive business stakeholders.

 

According to Biz Journal.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Uncommon

[shardoon]

41 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

Walt Disney World's plans for a Brightline high-speed rail station have derailed.

A representative with Disney confirmed to Orlando Business Journal that the plans for a station, announced in 2019, to connect to the multibillion-dollar Brightline project are no more.

“As many people who are involved in this project are aware, the new route configuration does not support a Disney Springs station and as a result, we don’t anticipate being part of this project," Disney spokesperson Avery Maehrertold Orlando Business Journal.

The company did not share any other details.

Executives with Brightline were not available for comment.

Brightline's current route is expected to take it along State Road 528 and Taft-Vineland Road — through the International Drive corridor — and down Interstate 4. Its previous route — when Disney first announced its involvement — had the train heading down State Road 417 and bypassing the tourist corridor.

That 417 route drew heavy criticism from multiple parties, including residents of the Hunter's Creek community and I-Drive business stakeholders.

 

According to Biz Journal.

Totally called this. Disney does not want competition for their guests. They want their guests never to see any other light of Orlando. With that being said, the Idrive route will not get built either.....because the route to Idrive is unsustainable alone......disney was the only thing that made this work

[Uncommon]

8 minutes ago, shardoon said:

Totally called this. Disney does not want competition for their guests. They want their guests never to see any other light of Orlando. With that being said, the Idrive route will not get built either.....because the route to Idrive is unsustainable alone......disney was the only thing that made this work

Unfortunately, I too am having major doubts the i-drive will get built. 

This city sucks.

[prahaboheme]

A spur to I-Drive could still work especially if the Feds are throwing money at rail. 
Tampa though, would never happen without Disney.  
That begs the question though if dedicated Sunrail would ultimately be the outcome.

[Uncommon]

39 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

A spur to I-Drive could still work especially if the Feds are throwing money at rail. 
Tampa though, would never happen without Disney.  
That begs the question though if dedicated Sunrail would ultimately be the outcome.

An Orlando Sentinel article that came out today about this whole situation started Brightline is still fully on board with expanding to Tampa.