Brightline Trains

[prahaboheme]

13 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

An Orlando Sentinel article that came out today about this whole situation started Brightline is still fully on board with expanding to Tampa.

How does that point change when Disney is out of the equation?

[Uncommon]

1 hour ago, prahaboheme said:

How does that point change when Disney is out of the equation?

I meant to say "stated," not "started." Brightline is still fully on board with going to Tampa even though they won't be going to Disney.

[spenser1058]

A train built for tourists is going to bypass the #1 theme park on the planet and an additional three in the Top 10 and the 36,000 hotel rooms on or adjacent to property? Well, that certainly makes sense…

Edited June 28, 2022 by spenser1058

[codypet]

3 hours ago, shardoon said:

Totally called this. Disney does not want competition for their guests. They want their guests never to see any other light of Orlando. With that being said, the Idrive route will not get built either.....because the route to Idrive is unsustainable alone......disney was the only thing that made this work

I mean it's a repeat of the old Orlando to Tampa HSR now.

[HankStrong]

I was really hoping for more trains.

[jrs2]

It's political posturing...wait and see.

[popsiclebrandon]

Disney really going to take their ball and go home because they have to share access? Even they can't be that dumb right? It would now just drive more traffic to Universal.

[spenser1058]

Over on Theme Park Insider, the folks whose perspective is more geared to the theme park than over here where any mention of a train starts a Pavlovian response, they’re looking at this a bit differently:

“I may be misunderstanding the Brightline operation, but it strikes me that opening a station at either I-Drive or Disney Springs doesn't sound like a really great idea. 

Consider the following:

As I understand it, the Brightline trains arrive and dispatch at the Intermodal Transportation Facility -- located about a mile south of the existing OIA terminal.

Okay.

That means if a passenger arrives at OIA and their flight lands at Terminal A or Terminal B they would:

- Disembark the plane.
- Ride a train to the main terminal (train #1).
- Pick -Up their luggage.
- Schlep their luggage to a train (train #2) that will take them one mile south to the transportation hub.
- Board the Brightline (train #3).
- Take the Brightline to a station (I-Drive or Disney Springs).
- Disembark the Brightline and board a shuttle (van or taxi) that then takes them to their hotel.

All things (and trains) considered it's not that difficult to understand why Disney might weigh these considerations and decide there's no substantial value that comes with spending a few million bucks on a station at Disney Springs.”

[codypet]

Train #1 is kinda a misnomer there.  Assuming carryon luggage everyone regardless of where they're going is getting onto train one.  If you checked your bag, is that first train even an issue?  And if GOAA has their way, they're also getting on Train #2 assuming their plan of a transit hub actually pans out.  Also there's going to be an increasing amount of flights out of Terminal C which eliminates both those rides altogether.   That said even with the old route, these were all still factors.  So that's not the issue.

The issue is a route that follow the old HSR which they weren't fans of 11 years ago.  Noone should be surprised by this.

Edited June 28, 2022 by codypet

[jrs2]

9 minutes ago, codypet said:

Train #1 is kinda a misnomer there.  Assuming carryon luggage everyone regardless of where they're going is getting onto train one.  If you checked your bag, is that first train even an issue?  And if GOAA has their way, they're also getting on Train #2 assuming their plan of a transit hub actually pans out.  Also there's going to be an increasing amount of flights out of Terminal C which eliminates both those rides altogether.   That said even with the old route, these were all still factors.  So that's not the issue.

The issue is a route that follow the old HSR which they weren't fans of 11 years ago.  Noone should be surprised by this.

Aside from Mica slamming the Disney to Tampa portion of the old HSR as a "dog," I don't recall push bask over the route to Disney from OIA.  Is that what opened the door for Maglev to come in and fill that role?

That article, I agree, is comparing apples to oranges.  You get on a train at Hartsfield or you walk a long way.  O'Hare and DFW both retrofitted AGT's at their airports years ago; maybe JFK too. Some airsides are a nightmare and a half to traverse, hence OIA's design. So the AGT/APM is a "part of life" at airports now...

What I'm very interested in knowing is whether Club 33 is going to try and leverage this for one or two things, namely, a station near Port Canaveral to service DCL, and/or for DeSantis to back off.  If they do, it will have to be a coexistence result b/c I can't see Orange County and FDOT and the FRA and I-Drive/Comcast all agreeing to take a hike to please The Diz.  Comcast/NBC is big money.  They have to protect their investment.  Similarly, Orange County (and FDOT) want continued viability for Sunrail.  

There's a lot of back scratching at play here.

If all Disney is interested in is a direct line to Diz Springs from OIA, then there is no compromise.  I don't think that's the case (and definitely not because of the reasons in that article).  And I also wonder whether the BS DeSantis vs Reedy Creek was a preemptive strike to gain pole position (to the benefit of CFLA/Brightline) because of this issue which was also at play simultaneously.    

It is really hard to say because at the onset, nobody ever said anything about Sunrail running an E-W line all the way to the OCCC; it was only a small spur from Taft to OIA.  Now, it's a completely different ballgame, or rather, we've switched leagues.  Now you've got Democrats fighting Democrats (not just Republicans fighting Democrats), and two corporate giants playing Rock Em Sock Em Robots.  The Armageddon may occur before this is resolved, or, it may be as quick as Palpatine's Order 66.  But there is a lot going on, and Disney's "invasion" of Comcast's territory with the Hollywood Plaza Garage store and light display is the latest sortie flown in this battle for the tourism dollar (pretty soon Ruble).

[aent]

14 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

A train built for tourists is going to bypass the #1 theme park on the planet and an additional three in the Top 10 and the 36,000 hotel rooms on or adjacent to property? Well, that certainly makes sense…

Disney has stated numerous times they are not going to support a train that stops at Universal and also at Disney. According to Disney's data, too many people go to Disney without a vehicle, and they just are not interested in making it easier, cheaper, and more fun for those without a vehicle to get to Universal. Having Brightline stop on their property and the next stop being Universal was never going to fly. In spite of this, you were claiming that the private corporation which was choosing Disney, the #1 theme park on the planet, over our local community and I-Drive was ridiculous, we need to force Brightline to do this, even though Disney insisted they didn't, and Brightline also said it wasn't financially feasible, costing an insane amount of extra money. Now that the government gets involved, it screws everything up, and your gonna blame them?

1 hour ago, popsiclebrandon said:

Disney really going to take their ball and go home because they have to share access? Even they can't be that dumb right? It would now just drive more traffic to Universal.

Its super complicated, as Disney's goal is to make it a bubble to capture 100% of the tourists dollars. While it no doubt would make it easier to get to Disney, which is good, it also would make it easier for people to split trips, which Disney is going to view as bad. Universal's resorts are typically much cheaper then Disney ones, and a couple minute train ride would definitely eat into the premium Disney could charge for no car rental/Uber transportation.

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

Over on Theme Park Insider, the folks whose perspective is more geared to the theme park than over here where any mention of a train starts a Pavlovian response, they’re looking at this a bit differently:

“I may be misunderstanding the Brightline operation, but it strikes me that opening a station at either I-Drive or Disney Springs doesn't sound like a really great idea. 

Consider the following:

As I understand it, the Brightline trains arrive and dispatch at the Intermodal Transportation Facility -- located about a mile south of the existing OIA terminal.

Okay.

That means if a passenger arrives at OIA and their flight lands at Terminal A or Terminal B they would:

- Disembark the plane.
- Ride a train to the main terminal (train #1).
- Pick -Up their luggage.
- Schlep their luggage to a train (train #2) that will take them one mile south to the transportation hub.
- Board the Brightline (train #3).
- Take the Brightline to a station (I-Drive or Disney Springs).
- Disembark the Brightline and board a shuttle (van or taxi) that then takes them to their hotel.

All things (and trains) considered it's not that difficult to understand why Disney might weigh these considerations and decide there's no substantial value that comes with spending a few million bucks on a station at Disney Springs.”

These arguments have never made sense. Brightline has already stated they will offer checked luggage, and presumably they will transfer the luggage for you, just as the airlines do for you if you transfer flights domestically. If we're playing these scenarios, lets say a passenger arrives at OIA and their flight lands at Terminal C to get to Disney hotel:

- Disembark the plane.
- Board Brightline
- Take the Brightline to the station at 125 MPH
- Disembark Brightline and board shuttle with checked luggage already loaded into the bus, to be received at hotel
- Ride bus to hotel

Compare that to arriving at Terminal C (or actually any terminal) and trying to take the Mears buses to Disney hotel:

- Disembark the plane
- Ride a train to the main terminal (train still required).
- Pick -Up their luggage.
- Schlep their luggage to a bus that is kept outdoors without any real, comfortable station
- Give luggage back to be loaded underneath bus
- Board bus
- Take bus at average speed of 25 MPH to hotel, or slower depending on how many other hotels its going to stop at
- Disembark bus at the right hotel, make sure you keep paying attention
- Pick up luggage again from underneath bus

The first one sure sounds better

[popsiclebrandon]

11 minutes ago, aent said:

Disney has stated numerous times they are not going to support a train that stops at Universal and also at Disney. According to Disney's data, too many people go to Disney without a vehicle, and they just are not interested in making it easier, cheaper, and more fun for those without a vehicle to get to Universal. Having Brightline stop on their property and the next stop being Universal was never going to fly. In spite of this, you were claiming that the private corporation which was choosing Disney, the #1 theme park on the planet, over our local community and I-Drive was ridiculous, we need to force Brightline to do this, even though Disney insisted they didn't, and Brightline also said it wasn't financially feasible, costing an insane amount of extra money. Now that the government gets involved, it screws everything up, and your gonna blame them?

Its super complicated, as Disney's goal is to make it a bubble to capture 100% of the tourists dollars. While it no doubt would make it easier to get to Disney, which is good, it also would make it easier for people to split trips, which Disney is going to view as bad. Universal's resorts are typically much cheaper then Disney ones, and a couple minute train ride would definitely eat into the premium Disney could charge for no car rental/Uber transportation.

These arguments have never made sense. Brightline has already stated they will offer checked luggage, and presumably they will transfer the luggage for you, just as the airlines do for you if you transfer flights domestically. If we're playing these scenarios, lets say a passenger arrives at OIA and their flight lands at Terminal C to get to Disney hotel:

- Disembark the plane.
- Board Brightline
- Take the Brightline to the station at 125 MPH
- Disembark Brightline and board shuttle with checked luggage already loaded into the bus, to be received at hotel
- Ride bus to hotel

Compare that to arriving at Terminal C (or actually any terminal) and trying to take the Mears buses to Disney hotel:

- Disembark the plane
- Ride a train to the main terminal (train still required).
- Pick -Up their luggage.
- Schlep their luggage to a bus that is kept outdoors without any real, comfortable station
- Give luggage back to be loaded underneath bus
- Board bus
- Take bus at average speed of 25 MPH to hotel, or slower depending on how many other hotels its going to stop at
- Disembark bus at the right hotel, make sure you keep paying attention
- Pick up luggage again from underneath bus

The first one sure sounds better

Weirdly the reasoning actually makes sense now that you've explained it.

[jrs2]

Maybe if they can still move forward with the proposal to Tampa, and get the Federal money to at least get the easement for Sunrail (and BL) to the OCCC, get that up and running, and then get it successful and reevaluate the path to Tampa as a separate phase.  As far as we know, the OIA Maintenance Facility that is supposed to house 8 of the 12 trainsets, was built in contemplation of OIA to Miami only.  I don't recall them stating that it was being built assuming a subsequent leg to Tampa would get built; the Tampa leg talk was much newer.  Meaning, maybe they will incorporate all pre-Tampa Leg construction down I-4 (OIA to I-4) as a sub-part of this phase from PBCo into OIA...and then reevaluate continuing on to Tampa.  By then, maybe Disney will change it's tune.

[Uncommon]

From OBJ:

Miami-based high-speed intercity rail Brightline may not be stopping at Walt Disney World's Disney Springs, but it still plans to get riders as close as possible.

The multibillion-dollar passenger train project's plans to have a station on Disney property fell through after Disney confirmed to Orlando Business Journal that the rail line's configuration did not support such a station. Brightline's current route is expected to take it from Orlando International Airport along State Road 528 and Taft-Vineland Road — with stops in the Orange County Convention Center/International Drive corridor — and then down Interstate 4 toward Tampa.

However, a potential station in the Disney area still is in the mix, a Brightline representative told OBJ via a prepared statement.

"In addition to the airport, one new station will be located at the Orange County Convention Center and an alternative station will be placed near the original Disney Springs site, albeit not on land owned by Disney," said Ben Porritt, Brightline senior vice president of corporate affairs. "Together, the three integrated stations provide access to the largest economic and employment centers in Central Florida, and offer the best opportunity for the success of Brightline and SunRail [Central Florida's commuter train]."

[jrs2]

33 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

From OBJ:

Miami-based high-speed intercity rail Brightline may not be stopping at Walt Disney World's Disney Springs, but it still plans to get riders as close as possible.

The multibillion-dollar passenger train project's plans to have a station on Disney property fell through after Disney confirmed to Orlando Business Journal that the rail line's configuration did not support such a station. Brightline's current route is expected to take it from Orlando International Airport along State Road 528 and Taft-Vineland Road — with stops in the Orange County Convention Center/International Drive corridor — and then down Interstate 4 toward Tampa.

However, a potential station in the Disney area still is in the mix, a Brightline representative told OBJ via a prepared statement.

"In addition to the airport, one new station will be located at the Orange County Convention Center and an alternative station will be placed near the original Disney Springs site, albeit not on land owned by Disney," said Ben Porritt, Brightline senior vice president of corporate affairs. "Together, the three integrated stations provide access to the largest economic and employment centers in Central Florida, and offer the best opportunity for the success of Brightline and SunRail [Central Florida's commuter train]."

Ah.  I surmised perhaps a station at Xentury City near Gaylord.  Also, Bonnet Creek/ Chelonia Parkway is NOT Disney property(Hilton/Waldorf, Wyndham, JW Marriott), and there's non-Disney land there as well on that side of I-4.  

[jrs2]

https://www.wptv.com/lifestyle/travel/disney-springs-brightline-station-canceled

So they map out/ contemplate three integrated stations for both Sunrail and Brightline, with one being near Diz Springs.

I did not realize they intended for Sunrail to get that close to Diz. For some reason I thought Sunrail would go to OCCC as its terminus to the west.

[codypet]

15 hours ago, jrs2 said:

Ah.  I surmised perhaps a station at Xentury City near Gaylord.  Also, Bonnet Creek/ Chelonia Parkway is NOT Disney property(Hilton/Waldorf, Wyndham, JW Marriott), and there's non-Disney land there as well on that side of I-4.  

That would be pretty slick.  Xentury City would be clean sheet and I wonder if Flagler has been gobbling up property out there.

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, codypet said:

That would be pretty slick.  Xentury City would be clean sheet and I wonder if Flagler has been gobbling up property out there.

Xentury was supposed to be this great big development, but I guess it started and stopped with Gaylord.

I'm trying to find a Diz property overlay that goes over Google maps that shows the parcels, etc.  I know Hyatt Grand Cypress is not their property, for example.  But I do not recall the Crossroads property whether they owned it or not.  And regardless, I'm not even sure what the easement plan is to get to Tampa.  I assume within the I-4 median.

FEC are no idiots.  They must have scouted property in anticipation of Diz doing this.   Wouldn't you think?  I read a couple articles last night where they were pretty confident about having a station as close as possible to Diz Springs; it's almost as if they already know where it's going to go.

Edited June 29, 2022 by jrs2

[codypet]

7 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

But I do not recall the Crossroads property whether they owned it or not.  And regardless, I'm not even sure what the easement plan is to get to Tampa.  I assume within the I-4 median.

They did own Crossroads but sold it in the late 90's early 00's.  Now its owned by FDOT.  Old HSR was in the median, but I know someone told me they didn't necessarily have to use the median.  So they must have been looking at their options.  I know in the old HSR days there was a TON of bridge reconstruction over the track using that median, but that was because that train was electric with overhead power.  BL wouldn't require that.

7 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

FEC are no idiots.  They must have scouted property in anticipation of Diz doing this.   Wouldn't you think?  I read a couple articles last night where they were pretty confident about having a station as close as possible to Diz Springs; it's almost as if they already know where it's going to go.

They knew what they were doing in SoFla.  They owned everything around those stations.  I suspect it'd be the same now.

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, codypet said:

They did own Crossroads but sold it in the late 90's early 00's.  Now its owned by FDOT.  Old HSR was in the median, but I know someone told me they didn't necessarily have to use the median.  So they must have been looking at their options.  I know in the old HSR days there was a TON of bridge reconstruction over the track using that median, but that was because that train was electric with overhead power.  BL wouldn't require that.

They knew what they were doing in SoFla.  They owned everything around those stations.  I suspect it'd be the same now.

Here's a link to another article; more of the same but kind of detailed:

https://allears.net/2022/06/28/news-brightline-train-will-still-stop-near-disney-world/

So, if you go to Google Map, the western N/S border of the Waldorf/Hilton is a border to Disney property, heading south to Osceola Pkwy.  From the northern tip of the Wyndham Bonnet Creek- the closer dirt road going E-W, that is the northern border- then heading east to the I-4 WB to SR 536 WB ramp- that ramp is a border as well.  They can put a station near the JW Marriott off of Chelonia Parkway in Bonnet Creek- sorry, no graphic.

The other place is possibly Marriott World Center or Vistana property to the east of I-4 across from that Grapefruit Parking Deck- unless there's a narrow easement on the same side of the road that belongs to the Interstate.   If you put it across I-4 it would probably be elevated and then they would have to build a "bridge" across I-4 with a building on it or an access road that ultimately connects adjacent to Grapefruit- if Diz would allow it.

Otherwise, it would go on Chelonia Pkwy and they would then shuttle buses from Chelonia to Buena Vista Drive to Diz Springs which would be a 2 mile trip.

It would be easier if Diz just played ball and donated easement for FEC to pay for a station themselves adjacent to Grapefruit.  At the end of the day, maybe that's Disney's plan- to not pay anything and have FEC absorb the costs.  Hopefully it's only that.

Edited June 29, 2022 by jrs2

[aent]

3 hours ago, codypet said:

They did own Crossroads but sold it in the late 90's early 00's.  Now its owned by FDOT.  Old HSR was in the median, but I know someone told me they didn't necessarily have to use the median.  So they must have been looking at their options.  I know in the old HSR days there was a TON of bridge reconstruction over the track using that median, but that was because that train was electric with overhead power.  BL wouldn't require that.

They knew what they were doing in SoFla.  They owned everything around those stations.  I suspect it'd be the same now.

I do know for a fact that before they struck the deal with Disney a year or so ago, they were scouting other properties in the area to determine whether a deal with Disney made sense, possibly building a resort near Disney, or partnering with an existing resort property for the station. They didn't put all their eggs in one basket a year ago, so they're still likely ready for different alternatives. At the same time, having it on official Disney property and supported by Disney will encourage ridership way better then any offsite property. Convincing people to take it from the airport to WDW at a significant scale is likely impossible without Disney on board, but it still could be useful for Miami/Tampa to WDW.

[jrs2]

3 hours ago, aent said:

I do know for a fact that before they struck the deal with Disney a year or so ago, they were scouting other properties in the area to determine whether a deal with Disney made sense, possibly building a resort near Disney, or partnering with an existing resort property for the station. They didn't put all their eggs in one basket a year ago, so they're still likely ready for different alternatives. At the same time, having it on official Disney property and supported by Disney will encourage ridership way better then any offsite property. Convincing people to take it from the airport to WDW at a significant scale is likely impossible without Disney on board, but it still could be useful for Miami/Tampa to WDW.

very interesting.  So, the closest large resort to there is Marriott World Center. If they went there. Meadow Creek Drive goes from 535 to the northern property line of World Center where the golf courses are- but the convention center and buildings are due south from that point to the east of the golf courses. Meadow Creek Drive is about a block south of Vineland Avenue (which goes to the Outlets).

However, the Bonnet Creek corridor is a similar distance drive to Diz Springs as well.

Between the two, if they were the choices, I would put a station off Chelonia Pkwy in Bonnet Creek because you are already on that side of I-4 and a short drive to Buena Vista Drive and already almost on Disney property.  I would get land next to the JW Marriott.  The other location near Marriott World Center is off of SR 535 and that corridor, for me, is kind of dumpy.

[cubanbread]

Once you start digging a bit further into the news that Disney backed out you start to realize that all they did was weasel themselves out of building the station while simultaneously continuing to benefit from a nearby stop. 

Maybe this opens the door to a casino stop in Tampa now since Brightline doesn't have to cater to what Disney wants. 

[codypet]

Even before Disney's involvement a Ybor stop was planned but not a casino stop.  That said they might do what they're doing in So Fla and adding one later like the Ventura stop.

[cubanbread]

Yeah, Ybor is going to be the main terminal (hopefully at or near Union Station), We Tampanians are hoping they add some secondary stops but the true dreamers amongst us are hoping Brightline uses the new transit lane on the expanded Howard Franklin Bridge to go all the way to St. Pete.