Brightline Trains

[gibby]

3 hours ago, Jernigan said:

I have a one seat ride from 32801 to MCO...Link 11 or 51.  I’m not too blue that I can’t take HSR for a 13 mile trip

I was saying that the downtown Tampa person will have a one seat ride to Miami.  To MCO, I'd rather spend 55 minutes on Brightline than 45 minutes on the 11 bus.

[I am Reality]

Political candidates now being graded (A through F) according to opposition to Brightline  expansion down south.  http://floridapolitics.com/archives/category/orlando

[jrs2]

15 hours ago, I am Reality said:

Political candidates now being graded (A through F) according to opposition to Brightline  expansion down south.  http://floridapolitics.com/archives/category/orlando

Funny.  those Republicans that are against the WPB to Orlando segment, are catering to the Red county constituents along that route.

 

[Dale]

So, does the Orlando to WPB have to weather another battery of lawsuits ? I thought it was good to go.

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, Dale said:

So, does the Orlando to WPB have to weather another battery of lawsuits ? I thought it was good to go.

it was until this

[I am Reality]

1 hour ago, Dale said:

So, does the Orlando to WPB have to weather another battery of lawsuits ? I thought it was good to go.

I don't think anything is a done deal yet.  

At the same time, Brightline was given permission recently to lay track in the wetlands areas near the OIA. 

[gibby]

I think they're approved for all the work but their funding isn't finalized.  I believe they have until October to resolve that.  They should have a full quarter of MIA-WPB numbers to show the bond market by then so that might help them (I hope).  I've read that they've already started laying fiber optic lines north of WPB so that's encouraging.

[codypet]

1 hour ago, I am Reality said:

I don't think anything is a done deal yet.  

At the same time, Brightline was given permission recently to lay track in the wetlands areas near the OIA. 

Long time before track comes.  Pretty much site work.

[gibby]

Lots of interesting clues.  This will end up being great for Tampa.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/High-speed-rail-firm-scouting-land-for-station-and-development-around-proposed-Rays-ballpark-site_170561134

 

[I am Reality]

So Miami, WPB, and now Tampa get downtown stations that will spur a lot of adjacent development?

Orlando gets a station on airport property on the edge of town?

Why is this acceptable?   Our leaders are inept.  I have said it before...locals are a total afterthought.  We kneel to the tourist industry and take it you-know-where.

And we, desperate for any type of development, justify it and let the tourism industry walk all over us.  I will ride Brightline when it (1) comes downtown, or (2) when local leaders get off their butts and find a convenient way to travel from downtown to OIA.

Until then, it's not for me.

Edited August 4, 2018 by I am Reality

[gibby]

I agree.  The other cities get huge investments into their downtowns and we get to sit around trying to piece together a complicated, two-seat, quarter billion dollar, three mile transfer station-style airport connection.  We should have allowed them to use our brand new zillion dollar airport station with a condition that they connect downtown or at least something better than the current situation.

[spenser1058]

1 hour ago, gibby said:

I agree.  The other cities get huge investments into their downtowns and we get to sit around trying to piece together a complicated, two-seat, quarter billion dollar, three mile transfer station-style airport connection.  We should have allowed them to use our brand new zillion dollar airport station with a condition that they connect downtown or at least something better than the current situation.

An important point of clarification - GOAA is controlled by the governor and the State of Florida, not the City of Orlando.

Both the Orlando mayor and the OC Mayor have seats on the GOAA board but that gives them only 2 of 7 votes.

As a result, any ideas for transit projects would have to clear the gubernatorial appointees. Given how transitphobic Tallahassee has been unless it lines the pockets of any corporations involved, there's simply no incentive to propose anything FEC doesn't want.

If you want that to change, make sure and vote for new leadership in Tallahassee this year.

[jrs2]

21 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

An important point of clarification - GOAA is controlled by the governor and the State of Florida, not the City of Orlando.

Wow.  I did not know that.  That means they control OEA also.

[spenser1058]

CF X-way Authority is also controlled by the state. OUC belongs to the city.

[gibby]

I don't remember anyone with the City making a push to have a downtown stop be part of the GOAA negotiations with Brightline.  Someone could have done something.  If there was a behind-the-scenes effort that failed, then fine but I have no evidence of that being the case.  Downtown was clearly left as an afterthought.  We will be stuck with a square peg in round hole, quarter billion dollar Sunrail connection situation when we could have resolved this much earlier if anyone had at least tried.

[codypet]

3 hours ago, gibby said:

I don't remember anyone with the City making a push to have a downtown stop be part of the GOAA negotiations with Brightline.  Someone could have done something.  If there was a behind-the-scenes effort that failed, then fine but I have no evidence of that being the case.  Downtown was clearly left as an afterthought.  We will be stuck with a square peg in round hole, quarter billion dollar Sunrail connection situation when we could have resolved this much earlier if anyone had at least tried.

Old Tampa to Orlando HSR was always intending to have a station at the airport.  When Brightline came along I'm sure they intended to just follow the Tampa to Orlando's connection.   Downtown just wasn't one anyones radar.

[aent]

4 hours ago, gibby said:

I don't remember anyone with the City making a push to have a downtown stop be part of the GOAA negotiations with Brightline.  Someone could have done something.  If there was a behind-the-scenes effort that failed, then fine but I have no evidence of that being the case.  Downtown was clearly left as an afterthought.  We will be stuck with a square peg in round hole, quarter billion dollar Sunrail connection situation when we could have resolved this much earlier if anyone had at least tried.

The problem is the vast majority of the ridership, and the ridership to make it profitable, is really anticipated to go to the tourist area/convention center and the best possible connections to those areas are critical for the service to work (and when the location was chosen, maglev hadn't been rejected by the airport yet). The other cities really just don't have that problem.

Probably the best effort now that could (and should) be made is to try to have a track sharing agreement so Sunrail and the HSR can share the tracks towards Tampa. That could possibly cut the cost of the quarter billion Sunrail expansion and get it to a more reasonable number if something can be worked out. FEC appears to be willing to do this sort of thing as they're planning to share the tracks with Tri-Rail expansion in south florida.

[jrs2]

17 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

CF X-way Authority is also controlled by the state. OUC belongs to the city.

So does that mean The City wants to make $$$ on ROW for the Sunrail airport link?  I keep dogging OUC as if they are a private entity, but it’s been The City this whole time.  Sunrail belongs to FDOT?

9 hours ago, aent said:

Probably the best effort now that could (and should) be made is to try to have a track sharing agreement so Sunrail and the HSR can share the tracks towards Tampa. That could possibly cut the cost of the quarter billion Sunrail expansion and get it to a more reasonable number if something can be worked out. FEC appears to be willing to do this sort of thing as they're planning to share the tracks with Tri-Rail expansion in south florida.

That is a fascinating dynamic.  I didn’t realize BL was doing that with Tri-Rail.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

1 hour ago, jrs2 said:

That is a fascinating dynamic.  I didn’t realize BL was doing that with Tri-Rail.

If I remember right they worked out a deal gor$69 million. Like I’ve said before If Brightline indeed does get to build to Tampa that can provide us with the track for our international drive and theme parks expansion. We Orlando Metro need to make our deal.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Urban Mail Carrier

[spenser1058]

1 hour ago, jrs2 said:

So does that mean The City wants to make $$$ on ROW for the Sunrail airport link?  I keep dogging OUC as if they are a private entity, but it’s been The City this whole time.  Sunrail belongs to FDOT?

 

It's a bit more complex than that. The OUC board has a fiduciary responsibility to their bond holders so as not to screw up their stellar bond rating. It's a way they keep their rates so low (much lower than private companies like Duke Energy, for example.) Now, since Buddy is on the OUC board and he appoints the board members, he does have leverage once things ever get to the point where a SunRail expansion to MCO is viable. A leverage, btw, he doesn't have with the majority of GOAA's Rick Scott appointees (who we might add are all from a different party than Buddy.)

But, before we ever get to that point, there are hurdles to clear with the state and federal governments, both of whom are controlled by a political party that made it clear in their 2016 platform they had little interest in transit.

It interests me that everyone wants SunRail finished in all phases tomorrow. Meanwhile, no one says a word about the fact planning for I4 Ultimate began early in Glenda's first term and won't be finished (if we're lucky) until 2021. We might also note one political party didn't fight Ultimate tooth and nail like SunRail yet it's still a 25+ year process. 

Given the players involved and the priorities (and given the fact Orlando is not the largest - or even second largest, not to mention the newest - MSA in the state), the fact we're as far along as we are is amazing.

If we were in a state like Georgia, where Atlanta always comes first because they're the only player, things might be very different. Sadly, we're not.

What to do in the meantime? Support transit-friendly candidates in the August and November elections.

 

Edited August 5, 2018 by spenser1058

[I am Reality]

As far as I understand, Brightline is getting built and it is coming to Orlando.  

Whether one party or another is anti-transit makes no difference.  

The problem is where the Brightline station in Orlando will be located.  

If our politians cared about locals, they would have forced a downtown station.  They don't care about us though.  They have prioritized tourists over us.  There is no other explanation.  

As a private company, Brightline's parent company will ONLY select the most profitable route.  Brightline apparantly sees little or no demand for downtown service.  Our political leaders - elected by Floridians - needed to step up to serve actual Florida residents.  They didn't.  

[aent]

2 hours ago, jrs2 said:

So does that mean The City wants to make $$$ on ROW for the Sunrail airport link?  I keep dogging OUC as if they are a private entity, but it’s been The City this whole time.  Sunrail belongs to FDOT?

Yup, the city wants to make sure they make money on the ROW for the Sunrail link, even if it costs us the project entirely, just as the GOAA wanted to make sure they made money on the maglev tourist train, and when it wasn't bringing in money for their organization, they killed it.

Sunrail belongs to FDOT for now, but it is being turned over to an ownership group of the involved countys/citys it runs through and eventually leaving FDOT control (and funding).

2 hours ago, Urban Mail Carrier said:

Like I’ve said before If Brightline indeed does get to build to Tampa that can provide us with the track for our international drive and theme parks expansion. We Orlando Metro need to make our deal.

Hmm, I wonder if this could b e a possible way to sneak the maglev route back in. If Brightline partners with Globalvia (which Globalvia did say they were willing to partner with others to get the project done), since they've already negotiated a deal and have a station with the airport, could that be a way to get that project actually done?

 

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

both of whom are controlled by a political party that made it clear in their 2016 platform they had little interest in transit.

Is that the same one that brought us Brightline (Rick Scott, R), is promising us an expansion of it to Tampa, and also proposed Orange Blossom Express and Sunrail (John Mica, R), and eventually approved Sunrail even though he could have easily veto'd it (Rick Scott, R)? Or are you talking about the replacement of John Mica, who has made it so we haven't heard a word about OBX since she (Stephanie Murphy, D) got into power?

 

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

We might also note one political party didn't fight Ultimate tooth and nail like SunRail yet it's still a 25+ year process. 

I remember a ton of battles for I-4 funding, I-4 Ultimate was delayed for many, many years as a result of it. Infact, I believe a special law was passed to specifically block the I-4 Ultimate project with the toll lanes for many years as it was called not fiscally responsible, until the theory of toll'd express lanes was tested in Miami. It wasn't 25+ years because thats how long it takes to design/build.

1 hour ago, I am Reality said:

If our politians cared about locals, they would have forced a downtown station.  They don't care about us though.  They have prioritized tourists over us.  There is no other explanation.  

As a private company, Brightline's parent company will ONLY select the most profitable route.  Brightline apparantly sees little or no demand for downtown service.  Our political leaders - elected by Floridians - needed to step up to serve actual Florida residents.  They didn't.

They couldn't force a downtown station. Brightline is being built without any public funds, and if its not profitable to run the train to where you want, they just aren't going to do it. So the explanation is quite simple: it was likely either this route, or no train at all. I guess the question is which do you prefer?

And I promise you Brightline is going to get a ton of use by Florida residents, and even those that don't use it will still benefit from the reduced congestion on our highways and less need to spend public money on expanding them if its successful. And if its not, we didn't lose anything really.

[aent]

Sounds like Ybor City is the preferred location in Tampa:

Among the sites that have caught the interest of Brightline are Tampa Union Station, Tampa Park Apartments and the old jail site on North Morgan Street

 

https://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/High-speed-rail-firm-scouting-land-for-station-and-development-around-proposed-Rays-ballpark-site_170561134

[spenser1058]

Given that the Democrats haven't controlled the Florida Legislature since the early 1990's (not to mention the governor's office since 1999), any anti-tolling battles were by the GOP.  Given that it was a Republican president (Eisenhower) who promoted the notion of free access to the Interstate Highway Defense System (following in the footsteps of FDR/HST), and Republican counties that fought to remove tolls (Duval) and double-tolling (Seminole), perhaps that should not be surprising.

St. John Mica, for all his groupies like to tell of his support for transit, was a constant opponent of Amtrak during his long tenure in office. Had he not fought it at every turn, all sorts of transit options could have been available for intercity rail within Florida, including service to downtown Orlando (which has existed all along.)

Like most of St. John's projects, OBX was floated mostly as a way to promote government support for track improvements by its corporate owner. Once they had that, it should not shock anyone that their interest in passenger rail evaporated.

St. John's interest in transit always existed as long as he and his campaigns benefitted from the largesse of corporate contributions to his Congressional committee and not beyond. It's why our transit projects rarely make sense- the purpose for them was never effective transit but rather sweetheart deals for patrons.

Pro-transit folks, desperate for anything, have accepted the crumbs offered along the way with hopes and prayers for better terms at some indeterminate point in the future.

[I am Reality]

36 minutes ago, aent said:

Yup, the city wants to make sure they make money on the ROW for the Sunrail link, even if it costs us the project entirely, just as the GOAA wanted to make sure they made money on the maglev tourist train, and when it wasn't bringing in money for their organization, they killed it.

Sunrail belongs to FDOT for now, but it is being turned over to an ownership group of the involved countys/citys it runs through and eventually leaving FDOT control (and funding).

Hmm, I wonder if this could b e a possible way to sneak the maglev route back in. If Brightline partners with Globalvia (which Globalvia did say they were willing to partner with others to get the project done), since they've already negotiated a deal and have a station with the airport, could that be a way to get that project actually done?

 

Is that the same one that brought us Brightline (Rick Scott, R), is promising us an expansion of it to Tampa, and also proposed Orange Blossom Express and Sunrail (John Mica, R), and eventually approved Sunrail even though he could have easily veto'd it (Rick Scott, R)? Or are you talking about the replacement of John Mica, who has made it so we haven't heard a word about OBX since she (Stephanie Murphy, D) got into power?

 

I remember a ton of battles for I-4 funding, I-4 Ultimate was delayed for many, many years as a result of it. Infact, I believe a special law was passed to specifically block the I-4 Ultimate project with the toll lanes for many years as it was called not fiscally responsible, until the theory of toll'd express lanes was tested in Miami. It wasn't 25+ years because thats how long it takes to design/build.

They couldn't force a downtown station. Brightline is being built without any public funds, and if its not profitable to run the train to where you want, they just aren't going to do it. So the explanation is quite simple: it was likely either this route, or no train at all. I guess the question is which do you prefer?

And I promise you Brightline is going to get a ton of use by Florida residents, and even those that don't use it will still benefit from the reduced congestion on our highways and less need to spend public money on expanding them if its successful. And if its not, we didn't lose anything really.

I would be perfectly fine if it is never built.  I don't feel obligated to support every project.   If it's not in our best interest, then why support it?  Another project with a more favorable route may come along someday.

I am not so desperate for just anything.  I said the same thing about SunRail.  In the case of SunRail, I always said:  If they weren't going to build it the right way, it could set local rail transit back decades.  No one wanted an antiquated system that goes no where.  Low ridership will kill future expansion.  

As I understand it, the state approved the Brightline route, gave land, etc.  They could have done more.