Brightline Trains

[dcluley98]

$$$ may not be an issue for long. Brightline just received approval to issue $1.75 Billion in bonds. $1.15 new money and $600 million to roll over bond debt from phase 1. 

Reported in the Sentinel and Orlando Weekly:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-brightline-bonds-approved-20180829-story.html

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2018/08/29/brightline-rail-expansion-gets-controversial-approval-for-175-billion-in-bonds

[jrs2]

3 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

$$$ may not be an issue for long. Brightline just received approval to issue $1.75 Billion in bonds. $1.15 new money and $600 million to roll over bond debt from phase 1. 

Reported in the Sentinel and Orlando Weekly:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-brightline-bonds-approved-20180829-story.html

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2018/08/29/brightline-rail-expansion-gets-controversial-approval-for-175-billion-in-bonds

“It’s a private company owned by a Japanese hedge fund,” Reingold said. “It expects Indian River County taxpayers to pay for the maintenance of their (rail crossing) improvements for eternity.”

^^ this, if true, is bullcrap.  Why should they incur any cost from a system that doesn't stop there yet they have to pay to upkeep the rail crossings within their counties (unless they're already doing it).  Beyond that butt-f*ck Brady Bunch scenario, I support the project.

[spenser1058]

Thanks for posting that. I had to love the fact that people keep bragging about how this is an entirely private project when in fact it never has been. Brightline is simply monetizing the real estate profits.

[codypet]

3 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

$$$ may not be an issue for long. Brightline just received approval to issue $1.75 Billion in bonds. $1.15 new money and $600 million to roll over bond debt from phase 1. 

Reported in the Sentinel and Orlando Weekly:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-brightline-bonds-approved-20180829-story.html

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2018/08/29/brightline-rail-expansion-gets-controversial-approval-for-175-billion-in-bonds

This is not the first time they've received approval for bonds.

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2018/06/04/brightline-gets-extension-to-sell-bonds-for-orlando-expansion

https://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/brightline-wins-seven-month-extension-issue-tax-exempt-bonds/WdsBupHc34C23Ololm1PbO/

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2017/12/22/brightline-gets-approval-on-1-15b-bond-secures.html

[WAJAS]

17 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

“It’s a private company owned by a Japanese hedge fund,” Reingold said. “It expects Indian River County taxpayers to pay for the maintenance of their (rail crossing) improvements for eternity.”

^^ this, if true, is bullcrap.  Why should they incur any cost from a system that doesn't stop there yet they have to pay to upkeep the rail crossings within their counties (unless they're already doing it).  Beyond that butt-f*ck Brady Bunch scenario, I support the project.

It’s like standard practice that municipalities pay for maintenance at crossings. Most of the time (and especially in this case) the train came first, so the cities had to pay to replace the track with a crossing and then pay for the maintenance. They’re only improving the track in that location. It’s not new ROW, so the city should be paying for it.

[spenser1058]

6 minutes ago, WAJAS98 said:

It’s like standard practice that municipalities pay for maintenance at crossings. Most of the time (and especially in this case) the train came first, so the cities had to pay to replace the track with a crossing and then pay for the maintenance. They’re only improving the track in that location. It’s not new ROW, so the city should be paying for it.

The idea is that the city will see some public good for its expenditure. If there's no station, then the city has no interest. If they're paying for existing FECRR tracks for cargo and not additional for Brightline, fine. They should not, however, pay for any upgrades required for high-speed passenger rail unless there's a benefit.

[spenser1058]

The other thing in that article is that, compared to what has been suggested here previously, is that ridership numbers didn't add up profitwise in the first quarter. Brightline insists it's because the service didn't operate to Miami until the second quarter. It will be interesting to see those numbers.

[WAJAS]

8 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

The other thing in that article is that, compared to what has been suggested here previously, is that ridership numbers didn't add up profitwise in the first quarter. Brightline insists it's because the service didn't operate to Miami until the second quarter. It will be interesting to see those numbers.

I honestly don’t see how they’re going to make a profit without the Orlando link. That is other than from the real estate ventures.

20 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

The idea is that the city will see some public good for its expenditure. If there's no station, then the city has no interest. If they're paying for existing FECRR tracks for cargo and not additional for Brightline, fine. They should not, however, pay for any upgrades required for high-speed passenger rail unless there's a benefit.

I didn’t see that it mentioned the city would be paying for the upgrades. If so, that would be my bad.

I wonder how this works in other countries? Rail is not this difficult elsewhere.

[spenser1058]

14 minutes ago, WAJAS98 said:

I honestly don’t see how they’re going to make a profit without the Orlando link. That is other than from the real estate ventures.

I didn’t see that it mentioned the city would be paying for the upgrades. If so, that would be my bad.

I wonder how this works in other countries? Rail is not this difficult elsewhere.

Rail in most places is considered a public good just as it has been here since Penn Central crashed and burned and handed the mess to the Feds.

The truth is, other than a brief period around WWII when the Feds paid railroads to move millions of troops around, passenger rail has not been profitable.

From the beginning, carrying passengers was a loss leader designed to encourage folks to move to and develop the millions of acres the rail companies received from the federal government to build the lines.

That's why those who studied transportation economics are so skeptical - there simply isn't a history of passenger rail making money on its own.

If it works while providing an affordable service to Floridians (and not just one-off tourists,) I wish them well. I think there's a reason, however, that the heirs to Henry Flagler's  (who went broke, btw) company had no use for passenger rail for decades.

[aent]

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

The idea is that the city will see some public good for its expenditure. If there's no station, then the city has no interest. If they're paying for existing FECRR tracks for cargo and not additional for Brightline, fine. They should not, however, pay for any upgrades required for high-speed passenger rail unless there's a benefit.

I believe the actual idea was that paying for maintenance of the tracks with grade crossing at roads was far, far, far cheaper than paying to bridge over existing tracks in the way of roads. If the city doesn't want to pay for track maintenance, I'm sure FEC would be thrilled if they took the alternative route of bridging all of the roads over their land so the trains simply have no vehicular crossings at all.

Rail systems like the NYC subway started as entirely private systems that were profitable. NYC subway was sold to the government after they wanted to have further fare increases to fund additional routes, and the government and some of the public was saying no, don't raise the prices on our people, we don't need any additional routes, and it killed expansion, caused lots of routes to be closed in order to keep the 5 cent fare... and then it went up very shortly afterwards anyways.

Edited August 30, 2018 by aent

[jliv]

On 8/30/2018 at 9:03 PM, spenser1058 said:

Rail in most places is considered a public good just as it has been here since Penn Central crashed and burned and handed the mess to the Feds.

The truth is, other than a brief period around WWII when the Feds paid railroads to move millions of troops around, passenger rail has not been profitable.

From the beginning, carrying passengers was a loss leader designed to encourage folks to move to and develop the millions of acres the rail companies received from the federal government to build the lines.

That's why those who studied transportation economics are so skeptical - there simply isn't a history of passenger rail making money on its own.

If it works while providing an affordable service to Floridians (and not just one-off tourists,) I wish them well. I think there's a reason, however, that the heirs to Henry Flagler's  (who went broke, btw) company had no use for passenger rail for decades.

Some good points here.    My understanding of FEC's strategic objective with AAF/Brightline was to create new value with some of its real estate assets, using rail as part of the proposition.  The problem is, it's not doing much in Orlando on that front, as the asset there isn't theirs, but...drum-roll...a taxpayer-funded "intermodal transit center" that sites empty, much like Gov. Scott's list of ethics.  Of course, the prospective bond buyers are obviously reacting the same way as you and I, and giving the value proposition the "stinky side-eye".  The Brightline trains are nice, though.  I rode them in April, and found the service to be a step up from the services I use every day here in the UK (and across Europe).   I'd like to see something like it to succeed, but I don't think you can do it without significant government support, or clever investments in the land assets around the train stations.

[spenser1058]

That's my point entirely. From the beginning, it has always been about monetizing the real estate assets. Which is fine, but then what's the end game? Once they've taken the profits from the real estate, what incentive do they have to keep the trains running?

Supposedly, they can make a profit doing that. Apparently they didn't first quarter with the runs between WPB and Lauderdale. Brightline says that will change as they expand service. We'll see, but it will be a first if it does.

Meanwhile, private equity groups like SofBank are infamous for sucking the value out of an asset and leaving the carcass (most recently, that happened with Toys R Us). The history of passenger rail in the US is private firms handing over what's left for Amtrak to deal with (the most recent example was Auto Train - entrepreneur Eugene Garfield was going to prove everyone wrong - he didn't.)

Maybe this time will be different but we've seen this movie too many times before.

[dcluley98]

Some idiot turned onto the Brightline tracks in Broward County. Stuff like this isn't going to help us get our section through Treasure Coast done. 

https://www.local10.com/news/florida/broward/driver-recounts-what-happened-before-brightline-train-slammed-into-her-car?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

[prahaboheme]

The Brightline folks are taking this show on the road - next stop Vegas via LA (errr Palmdale):

https://urbanize.la/post/new-owner-breathes-life-la-vegas-high-speed-rail-plan

[jrs2]

23 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

Some idiot turned onto the Brightline tracks in Broward County. Stuff like this isn't going to help us get our section through Treasure Coast done. 

https://www.local10.com/news/florida/broward/driver-recounts-what-happened-before-brightline-train-slammed-into-her-car?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

totally irresponsible.  no remorse for that stupidity.  not paying attention.  she should be put down and her hooves used for Elmer's Glue.

[HankStrong]

How about the fact that according to her own interview that she had no idea she was on RAILROAD TRACKS and just thought the road was very bumpy and had poor visibility.  All this, despite living in the neighborhood?

That's super weird.

[dcluley98]

I don't know, they did not say this person was on any drug or substance. Maybe just was that out of it. Some people have no common sense whatsoever. 

The track runs in the median there with at grade crossings for streets, but I mean, I can't fathom how anybody could do that at a marked railroad crossing.  People do dumb stuff all the time with tracks, but I just don't want to local NIMBY's or Politicians to continue to say that rail isn't safe just because these folks can't tell the difference between a railroad and a 4 lane highway. 

[jrs2]

7 hours ago, HankStrong said:

How about the fact that according to her own interview that she had no idea she was on RAILROAD TRACKS and just thought the road was very bumpy and had poor visibility.  All this, despite living in the neighborhood?

That's super weird.

next thing you know, she'll hire a lawyer to sue Brightline because...I don't know...they didn't have stupid proof signage telling drivers not to turn left or right at RR tracks.

[uncreativeusername]

I know this isn't news here (and am offering no commentary on the likelihood of it actually happening)...but I was reading the below article on Brightline's potential Tampa leg, and was struck by the following: 

"In its proposal, the railroad said trains likely would run from its hub at Orlando International Airport, along portions of State Road 528, I-4 and State Road 417 to a new station in downtown Tampa."

If this is the actual alignment, I will have an aneurism if they miss the opportunity for an I-Drive connection as part of this - either by their own doing, or in partnership with someone else. If tracks are being laid down 528 to I-4 anyway, how can they not? 

https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/local/shaping-our-future/growth/2018/11/09/brightline-only-bidder-tampa-orlando-railroad-rights/1941271002/

[shardoon]

Mark my words. Not a single person will ride this thing if they do not at least make a connection at I Drive. Who in their right mind would drive all the way out to the airport to pick up this train to a destination 60 to 90 minutes away? They are pushing it with a station at I Drive, but that is the only way I would even consider taking this to Tampa. I could be pulling up to the station in Tampa at the same time that I would have parked my car t the airport checking into the train terminal in Orlando. Stupidity at its finest. Also, if they think they are gonna catch tourists using this, they are highly mistaken. Tampa ain't no Miami as a tourist draw. 

[uncreativeusername]

5 minutes ago, shardoon said:

Mark my words. Not a single person will ride this thing if they do not at least make a connection at I Drive. Who in their right mind would drive all the way out to the airport to pick up this train to a destination 60 to 90 minutes away? They are pushing it with a station at I Drive, but that is the only way I would even consider taking this to Tampa. I could be pulling up to the station in Tampa at the same time that I would have parked my car t the airport checking into the train terminal in Orlando. Stupidity at its finest. Also, if they think they are gonna catch tourists using this, they are highly mistaken. Tampa ain't no Miami as a tourist draw. 

I agree that it would be an insane missed opportunity (obviously, hence my original post).  But I also think there are other opportunities here.  Namely, the Tampa/Miami connectivity, OIA being connected directly to downtown Tampa (context - it could take roughly the equivalent or less time to get from OIA to Tampa via transit via Brightline than it takes to get from JFK to Penn Station via AirTrain & LIRR).  With an I-Drive connection, Tampa has direct rail access to I-Drive and possibly Universal too. 

[HankStrong]

Not a single person would be an awesome bet to make money on.   You could probably get a single person to do just about anything.

 

I agree with the general sentiment, though. 

That said, if the overall route somehow includes a Port Canaveral connection, a Port of Tampa connection, and a Tampa airport connection, this is all moot.  Because people most certainly will use those connections on a train.  I have relatives that are huge into the local cruising scene and it is a massive and hot market.  People are looking for airport/cruise connections all over the place.  A non-roadway based connection would be insanely popular. 

There are currently people who use any combination of local airports and cruise terminals they can get to minimize costs.  Often renting cars or hiring cars to connect between them.

 

If you could fly into Tampa and cruise out of Port Canaveral OR fly into Orlando and cruise out of Port of Tampa OR insert various options that will already exist on the Brightline (Ft Lauderdale, Miami, West Palm airports and Port Everglades, Port of Miami cruise terminals) that would be a huge untapped market.

[sunshine]

kind of off topic but there are people think that Orlando is on the ocean and they think that they come to Orlando to go on a cruise.

A friend of mine in the hotel industry told me some guests insist that they came to Orlando to go on a cruise and when he told  they have a bus that take them to Port Canaveral, they said they dont want to to go there.

[HankStrong]

1 hour ago, sunshine said:

kind of off topic but there are people think that Orlando is on the ocean and they think that they come to Orlando to go on a cruise.

A friend of mine in the hotel industry told me some guests insist that they came to Orlando to go on a cruise and when he told  they have a bus that take them to Port Canaveral, they said they dont want to to go there.

This is an intentional move by the cruise industry and is universal.  Thanks to my family, I hear a ton about the cruise industry.

Just try searching for a cruise.  The search features use the closest recognizable city as the port visited and/or the home port and some are close, but some are hours away.

• Orlando - Port Canaveral
• Anchorage - Seward or Whittier
• Athens - Piraeus (very close)
• Berlin - Warnemunde (far)
• Houston - Galveston
• Paris - La Havre (far)
• Rome - Civitavecchia (far)

 

 

[WAJAS]

2 hours ago, HankStrong said:

This is an intentional move by the cruise industry and is universal.  Thanks to my family, I hear a ton about the cruise industry.

Just try searching for a cruise.  The search features use the closest recognizable city as the port visited and/or the home port and some are close, but some are hours away.

• Orlando - Port Canaveral
• Anchorage - Seward or Whittier
• Athens - Piraeus (very close)
• Berlin - Warnemunde (far)
• Houston - Galveston
• Paris - La Havre (far)
• Rome - Civitavecchia (far)

 

 

Or a closer comparison. Las Angela’s - Long Beach