Brightline Trains

[shardoon]

Well according to the article in the OS, the plan is to bypass all of I Drive as well as Disney. It is simply gonna have a stop in Celebration and Lakeland before reaching Tampa.

With that being said, I'll NEVER ride it beyond once just to see it, it's a stupid venture at this point, and it is a TOTAL was of money.

[HankStrong]

There are two new unlocked articles up on OBJ about it.  I'm not sure why you're sure you'll "NEVER ride it beyond once just to see it" when it doesn't exist yet and no one has a full idea of where it will go.

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2018/11/28/inside-brightlines-plans-orlando-to-tampa-route.html

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2018/11/28/brightline-wins-key-approval-for-tampa-to-orlando.html

They make some attractive points. 

• They want to built an exchange station @ Meadow Woods which would eliminate the need for Phase III of SunRail.  That saves money.
• A station near 417/I-4 (Celebration, Disney, whatever) as you said
• Possible Lakeland station as you said
• The area map they included shows the end of the line basically in Ybor.  The article mentions FDOT land on Cypress several miles West of Ybor, but I'm not sure if that's just because FDOT owns it or there is a real reason?

The high point for me is that the FDOT end would put it 2 miles from Raymond James, 3 miles from the airport, and 5 miles from the cruise terminal.  The Ybor end would put it 5 miles from Raymond James, 8 miles from the airport, and less than a half mile from the cruise terminal.

Either location being a cheap Uber ride away.  The Hard Rock Casino/WHATEVER IT IS THIS YEAR Amphitheater and Busch Gardens would also be reasonably quick trips, too.  Having it in Ybor would also likely pump up that area, as well.  I know some of that area gets pretty gnarly, so maybe it would improve police presence?

[HankStrong]

Also, if the new Rays stadium is built in Tampa in the Ybor district, this train potentially is in walking distance or at most a few miles away.

I didn't see @spenser1058 post with this link:

https://www.tampabay.com/breaking-news/while-tampa-is-counting-dollars-on-rays-stadium-st-pete-is-counting-the-days-20181128/?template=amp

until after I initially posted this.

[Dale]

So, to get from OIA to downtown you’d have to take Brightline then transfer to SunRail ?

2 hours ago, HankStrong said:

Also, if the new Rays stadium is built in Tampa in the Ybor district, this train potentially is in walking distance or at most a few miles away.

I didn't see @spenser1058 post with this link:

https://www.tampabay.com/breaking-news/while-tampa-is-counting-dollars-on-rays-stadium-st-pete-is-counting-the-days-20181128/?template=amp

until after I initially posted this.

Apparently, fundraising for the stadium is exceeding expectations.

[HankStrong]

55 minutes ago, Dale said:

So, to get from OIA to downtown you’d have to take Brightline then transfer to SunRail ?

Yes.

[Dale]

3 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

Yes.

I guess this is Orlando saying, “Gee, what was so hard about that ?”

[codypet]

3 hours ago, HankStrong said:

• They want to built an exchange station @ Meadow Woods which would eliminate the need for Phase III of SunRail.  That saves money.

Can confirm.  This is Brightline's proposal, but FDOT and the City need some convincing/ie this is the carrot Brightline dangles in front of the City to leverage letting them use certain peoples rail lines.  I don't know how they intend on solving the issue with ticketing.

[jrs2]

45 minutes ago, codypet said:

Can confirm.  This is Brightline's proposal, but FDOT and the City need some convincing/ie this is the carrot Brightline dangles in front of the City to leverage letting them use certain peoples rail lines.  I don't know how they intend on solving the issue with ticketing.

can you explain exactly how this "exchange station" would function?  I mean, are we talking about a new line emanating from there and ditching a certain power company's rail easement?

my bad.  got confused.  I get it now.  BL's exchange station to operate much like Maglev would've ala Sunrail.

The logistical problem I see is what the train times would actually be for that segment from Meadow Woods to OIA...and whether they would have to run a dedicated train set between the two...to make it functional.  Or, is BL going to operate frequently as it is?

Edited November 29, 2018 by jrs2

[Urban Mail Carrier]

Hopefully the plan is to just let Sunrail use the line from Meadow woods to MCO and to use the line further down near Celebration. Sunrail perhaps could have another dedicated line.  Sunrail can maybe even have use to the BL line past the airport going eastbound. This could be a way to get to UCF main .

[codypet]

The Sunrail train can't physically use the BL station.  It's too big.

Edited November 29, 2018 by codypet

[HankStrong]

20 minutes ago, Urban Mail Carrier said:

Hopefully the plan is to just let Sunrail use the line from Meadow woods to MCO and to use the line further down near Celebration. Sunrail perhaps could have another dedicated line.  Sunrail can maybe even have use to the BL line past the airport going eastbound. This could be a way to get to UCF main .

That's not how the article reads at all.

Brightline from Miami to MCO.  Brightline from MCO to Tampa.

There would just be a stop (and possibly some new double-tracking to enhance that section????) and you could switch from one to the other without really having to do much.  Like typical exchange stations on train lines around the globe.

Yellow being SunRail.

Red being Brightline.

Station in blue.

[HankStrong]

11 minutes ago, codypet said:

The Sunrail train can't physically use the BL station.  It's too big and fat.

Brightline uses the Siemens SCB-40     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Charger

They don't seem to list what brand of cars they use, but they are ~10' wide and single-level

SunRail uses the MotivePower MP32PH-Q      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPI_MPXpress#MP32PH-Q

They use Bombardier which are bi-level and taller, but usually locomotives are as tall as a bi-level car, but the trains are still ~10' wide. 

 

I'm not sure how the trains can't use the same stations??  They are both heavy rail and run on standard gauge tracks.  I know Brightline also uses retractable decking to bridge the "Mind the Gap" problem.  I'm not saying you are incorrect, I'm just saying there isn't anything in the surface data that makes it seem that they couldn't use the same stations.  The engines are roughly the same-ish dimensions.  BL - 71.5' long, 10' wide, and 15.5' tall and SR - 68' long, 10.5' wide, and 16' tall. 

I'm assuming the Brightline trains will have a lot more cars than a SunRail train, but you either extend the decking OR (as is the case in many old Euro stations) post that anyone looking to transfer to SunRail @ the Meadow Woods Station must sit in cars X, Y, and Z which will open and line up with the shorter platform.  There seems to be plenty of room to lengthen the Meadow Woods station, though.

 

[codypet]

BL can use SR stations, but SR can't use BL's station if that's a hint. 

Edited November 29, 2018 by codypet

[Urban Mail Carrier]

Well I know that Trirail is getting ready to use BL tracks once they stop at Miami Grand Central next year.  If accommodations can be worked out between them, then certainly we can make some type of arrangement. Come on Orlando leaders don’t fall asleep at the wheel. At this point it’s just a proposal that we can improve on. The stations haven’t been built yet. I’m sure something can be designed to accommodate both trains.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Urban Mail Carrier

[codypet]

39 minutes ago, Urban Mail Carrier said:

Well I know that Trirail is getting ready to use BL tracks once they stop at Miami Grand Central next year.  If accommodations can be worked out between them, then certainly we can make some type of arrangement. Come on Orlando leaders don’t fall asleep at the wheel.

They're currently building out Miami Central and planned it with one track set aside for TriRail.  The airport built the station specifically for BL and they're leasing it. There's no such accommodation for SR.  SR had an area set aside for a possible future station at the ITF, but there's no plan to go beyond the airport for SR.

Edited November 29, 2018 by codypet

[jrs2]

26 minutes ago, codypet said:

They're currently building out Miami Central and planned it with one track set aside for TriRail.  The airport built the station specifically for BL and they're leasing it. There's no such accommodation for SR.  SR had an area set aside for a possible future station at the ITF, but there's no plan to go beyond the airport for SR.

wasn't the Intermodal Center at OIA built to handle 3 separate systems (BL, SR, and perhaps Maglev)?  That's how they marketed it at least.  But I guess the real question is whether they built it with 3 separate docking bays for 3 separate systems.

Or maybe this has more to do with Meadowoods Station as a potential exchange point?

Edited November 29, 2018 by jrs2

[codypet]

38 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

wasn't the Intermodal Center at OIA built to handle 3 separate systems (BL, SR, and perhaps Maglev)?  That's how they marketed it at least.  But I guess the real question is whether they built it with 3 separate docking bays for 3 separate systems.

Or maybe this has more to do with Meadowoods Station as a potential exchange point?

The original plan was to have all three at the ITF all separated from each other.  From W to E it was the tram, BL, Maglev, Sunrail.

Someone mentioned using the BL tracks and station for SR.  SR won't fit in BL's station, but BL would fit in SR's.

[OrlFlaUsa]

I know there has been talk of the Tampa route stopping at WDW. Does anyone know if they could connect to I-drive as well? Think about all the convention goers who would take the train in addition to Uni and Disney guests. That alone could make this route profitable methinks. Tampa being the terminus would just be a perk. Of course for this to really work there would need to be some sort of (preferably free) I-drive circulator built say from like Sea World to Uni and then of course some Disney Transport tie in as well. 86 the magical express at MCO and maybe put a version of that at the train station at WDW. 

Thoughts? 

Edited November 29, 2018 by OrlFlaUsa
grammer

[jrs2]

11 minutes ago, OrlFlaUsa said:

I know there has been talk of the Tampa route stopping at WDW. Does anyone know if they could connect to I-drive as well? Think about all the convention goers who would take the train in addition to Uni and Disney guests. That alone could make this route profitable methinks. Tampa being the terminus would just be a perk. Of course for this to really work there would need to be some sort of (preferably free) I-drive circulator built say from like Sea World to Uni and then of course some Disney Transport tie in as well. 86 the magical express at MCO and maybe put a version of that at the train station at WDW. 

Thoughts? 

this was part of the maglev proposal.  But, based on alignment studies, it doesn't look like the OCCC/I-Drive is part of the plan.  I too wish it was...

[OrlFlaUsa]

Just now, jrs2 said:

this was part of the maglev proposal.  But, based on alignment studies, it doesn't look like the OCCC/I-Drive is part of the plan.  I too wish it was...

Oh gotcha. That sucks so much. 

[jrs2]

11 minutes ago, OrlFlaUsa said:

Oh gotcha. That sucks so much. 

It really does.  Maglev would've advanced Orlando's transit connectivity by a lot by connecting the OCCC to OIA and Fla Mall.  So now, a stop at WDW and/or elsewhere within the corridor is ancillary to the BL phase out to Tampa.  But, if they see money in it, maybe they'll rethink and do a realignment that services the OCCC or both, them and WDW.

[OrlFlaUsa]

1 minute ago, jrs2 said:

It really does.  Maglev would've advanced Orlando's transit connectivity by a lot by connecting the OCCC to OIA and Fla Mall.  So now, a stop at WDW and/or elsewhere within the corridor is ancillary to the BL phase out to Tampa.  But, if they see money in it, maybe they'll rethink and do a realignment that services the OCCC or both, them and WDW.

We ALL need to email Richard Branson like crazy. Disney being the only attraction to get a stop is sad. They already have a good enough situation with the DME being door to door and even your luggage is taken care of. 

[jrs2]

9 minutes ago, OrlFlaUsa said:

We ALL need to email Richard Branson like crazy. Disney being the only attraction to get a stop is sad. They already have a good enough situation with the DME being door to door and even your luggage is taken care of. 

it's the alignment, though...I don't know if they could do it and it may cost too much $$$ with the at grade system they are running (at grade at least outside of the Miami station, that is).

[spenser1058]

A couple of thoughts: depending on who’s reporting it, the supposed Disney station is either out by I4 or at Celebration. 

Either way, that’s still a distance from the Disney resorts. so they’re still going to have to get on a bus to get from the station to their hotel.

DME buses run constantly throughout the day and evening to ferry millions of guests annually to and from MCO/WDW. I have a difficult time imagining Brightline is in any position to handle that volume, especially given you still have to get all those folks from the station to their hotel. Essentially, you’re adding an extra complication to guests to justify this train. That’s the opposite of Disney’s goal of becoming ever more seamless for guests.

Further, if Disney were to decide to go along, any idea of an I-Drive stop would be a no-go in order to meet the Company’s goal of keeping guests on property.

Given that Disney is building thousands more hotel rooms as we speak, this seems ever less practical.

It’s also interesting we’re ignoring all the local folks who’d be better served by improving Amtrak service from downtown than having to deal with going to MCO for this. By the time you do that, the supposed time savings of Brightline over Amtrak evaporates.

This supposed “solution” creates more problems than it solves.

 

 

[Urban Mail Carrier]

This Brightline extension is such a tease.  It’s looking evermore like another wasted opportunity.