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Brightline Trains


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23 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

A couple of thoughts: depending on who’s reporting it, the supposed Disney station is either out by I4 or at Celebration. 

Either way, that’s still a distance from the Disney resorts. so they’re still going to have to get on a bus to get from the station to their hotel.

DME buses run constantly throughout the day and evening to ferry millions of guests annually to and from MCO/WDW. I have a difficult time imagining Brightline is in any position to handle that volume, especially given you still have to get all those folks from the station to their hotel. Essentially, you’re adding an extra complication to guests to justify this train. That’s the opposite of Disney’s goal of becoming ever more seamless for guests.

Further, if Disney were to decide to go along, any idea of an I-Drive stop would be a no-go in order to meet the Company’s goal of keeping guests on property.

Given that Disney is building thousands more hotel rooms as we speak, this seems ever less practical.

It’s also interesting we’re ignoring all the local folks who’d be better served by improving Amtrak service from downtown than having to deal with going to MCO for this. By the time you do that, the supposed time savings of Brightline over Amtrak evaporates.

This supposed “solution” creates more problems than it solves.

 

 

DME has gotten slow, especially as the number of hotels has  grown, since a single bus goes to the airport and to all the hotels for any given timeslot. If you have to stop at every hotel, it takes a while, and is hardly a great experience, which is why more and more people are switching to using Uber instead, even though it costs much more.

If the distance is made to be much less through use of the train, they can easily have the buses go directly to hotels instead (or much smaller groups of them) because the route is so much shorter, or they can stick them as an extra stop on another part of the route, such as making the Disney Springs hotel buses go to the Brightline stop as well.

Disney did promise to replace DME with the HSR if there was no I-Drive stop and do that method in the last go around on this. Luggage would remain the same, it just shows up in your hotel room.

And to my surprise, Brightline does seem to be trying to cater to locals as well with the Sunrail/Brightline transfer station at Meadow Woods.. and I honestly see no reason to go to the airport station if that station is built for most Orlando residents. The plan actually seems to make a lot of sense... Disney or airport if your visiting Orlando, as they have the transfers to all of the area attractions and to tons of hotels (and car rentals), if you're local or trying to do our more local activities, Meadow Woods station.

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I'll also add that if Brightline is able to provide the DME service, it makes it much more magical. Most people come where there is no HSR of any form (even if its not as far as other HSRs), and the avoidance of buses made the monorail resorts by far the most valuable and sought after ones, and every time there is talk of the monorails being replaced by buses as they reach their end of life, people flip out, the monorail is among the most iconic mass transit systems in the world. I imagine these very same people will be really excited to take a higher speed train instead of buses, and I bet some would even be willing to forego their car rental to take the trains, because the bus is far from the magical experience Disney desires (as long as the train doesn't have an I-drive connection).

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Some really great points here. So the way I see things now,  after reviewing the wealth of information shared on this forum,  is that the HSR (aka BrightVirgin or whatever) could do MCO-WDW-DT Tampa and the MCO-MIA route would connect to SunRail thus eliminating the need for an airport extension.  This still leaves out I-Drive, the ConCenter, and the soon to be multiple Universal complexes. 

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What they SHOULD have done, IMO:

Delete the Orlando Executive Airport and put the Intermodal there instead, with mixed-use development around it. Tie in a circulator Maglev that connects Lynx Central, Intermodal, MCO, and I-drive using the 528, I-4, 417, and Colonial Corridors.  Putting the Intermodal at the airport was one of the worse locations they could have picked, IMO. Put it centralized to the population in DT area,  and you would maximize the population able to ride it and be able to profit sooner. Use other lines to connect to the Airport! 

Win-Win-Win. Train close to DT and centralized. Connections to all other applicable areas including resorts/airport/DT/UCF areas, and less stops for Brightline, which is meant to be HSR, not local.  Brightline could have gone 528/408/429 corridor instead, and be true HSR, without much difference because speed would be upped to its max without a bunch of stops in the middle. 

Of course this makes some HUGE assumptions on money and ability to engineer and construct that way, but it would have been damn awesome! 

Red: Virgin HSR, stops at UCF,  Intermodal at old executive airport, Disney backdoor.  

Orange: SunRail, stops already set, connects with circulator at Lynx Central and Sand Lake. 

Cyan: Circulator, connects to airport, Intermodal at old executive airport, Lynx Central, Mall/North I-drive, Convention Center, South I-drive, Sand Lake. 

OB Express would just be gravy then from Lynx Central to Mt. Dora/Tavares. 

System.jpg

Edited by dcluley98
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1 hour ago, OrlFlaUsa said:

Some really great points here. So the way I see things now,  after reviewing the wealth of information shared on this forum,  is that the HSR (aka BrightVirgin or whatever) could do MCO-WDW-DT Tampa and the MCO-MIA route would connect to SunRail thus eliminating the need for an airport extension.  This still leaves out I-Drive, the ConCenter, and the soon to be multiple Universal complexes. 

Yes, we need the old maglev route to be revived bad.

I just looked through the proposal document, and as I speculated previously, their timeline does have the additional Orlando stations being built an open first, it seem there curret timeline is Miami-Orlando/MCO 2021 to Meadow Woods (and maybe Disney) 2022, to Tampa 2023

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4 minutes ago, aent said:

Yes, we need the old maglev route to be revived bad.

I just looked through the proposal document, and as I speculated previously, their timeline does have the additional Orlando stations being built an open first, it seem there curret timeline is Miami-Orlando/MCO 2021 to Meadow Woods (and maybe Disney) 2022, to Tampa 2023

I’m confused, have seen Tampa 2021 or early 2022, which led me to wonder whether Tampa will be done first, given the legal issues on the WPB - Orlando leg.

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20 hours ago, codypet said:

BL can use SR stations, but SR can't use BL's station if that's a hint. 

image.png.3757842be49aefd7d8c2de491cef593b.pngimage.png.c7475cea783bf4ed9aaf018dca701049.png

Use your words and say it.

I did mention the difference between single level and bi-level cars (note your SunRail picture isn't the current train, though), but also noted the OVERALL height isn't that different according to the manufacturer's specs.  I think the framing of the photos makes it look a bit greater than it is.   The SunRail cars actually sit a bit lower on the bottom level.

However, unless the station drawings have changed since I was looking at them the height wasn't a factor at either station or the terminals.  They don't build them 2" above the tops of the trains. 

On the width, the trains are within a foot of each other, specifically 7.5" I believe if I am remembering correctly.  On center that would 3.75" which shouldn't cause a clearance issue.

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2 hours ago, HankStrong said:

Use your words and say it.

I did mention the difference between single level and bi-level cars (note your SunRail picture isn't the current train, though), but also noted the OVERALL height isn't that different according to the manufacturer's specs.  I think the framing of the photos makes it look a bit greater than it is.   The SunRail cars actually sit a bit lower on the bottom level.

However, unless the station drawings have changed since I was looking at them the height wasn't a factor at either station or the terminals.  They don't build them 2" above the tops of the trains. 

On the width, the trains are within a foot of each other, specifically 7.5" I believe if I am remembering correctly.  On center that would 3.75" which shouldn't cause a clearance issue.

Look at the pictures.   The doors are too low for SR on the BL platforms.  There's other reasons, but I'm not going to go into more detail than I already have.

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This all seems rather pointless. They won't be using the same tracks/platforms for both systems. They would likely be double tracking with BL on it's own dedicated line and have one station with 2 platforms so passengers can transfer from one to the other. Heck, it could even be L or T shaped perpendicular to each other and the tracks cross, or even multi-level, depending on the land/station they are going with. 

Edited by dcluley98
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1 hour ago, dcluley98 said:

This all seems rather pointless. They won't be using the same tracks/platforms for both systems. They would likely be double tracking with BL on it's own dedicated line and have one station with 2 platforms so passengers can transfer from one to the other. Heck, it could even be L or T shaped perpendicular to each other and the tracks cross, or even multi-level, depending on the land/station they are going with. 

"...or multilevel, depending on"- money

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3 hours ago, jrs2 said:

"...or multilevel, depending on"- money

Yup, I think they even said multilevel already... Brightline's ticketing system is incompatible with Sunrail's, they have gates to get to the areas the trains are. Also i'm expecting an indoor lobby/waiting area with it with some retail if they can get some control of some land at that station, which sounds like the goal.

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I'm leaning toward a stop at I-Drive / Convention Center / Universal over Disney for a few reasons:

- the demographics (convention goers, people staying in I-Drive hotels and the area) may better support a train service than say, a family going to Disney for a few days

- Disney's track record of keeping Orlando "out" of its gates doesn't exactly yield itself to an interconnected rail service, especially if they are making demands to not have additional stops in Orlando

- Universal has shown a willingness to build a much more urban theme park resort, which again, would better support a rail station stop

- a stop at I-Drive could eventually link to future light-rail, if Orlando ever does dust off those old plans

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A link to the Brightline proposal submitted to the FL DOT: http://www.fdot.gov/procurement/pdf/Brightline Trains FDOT Proposal Tampa to Orlando FINAL 11-5-18.pdf

A couple of interesting things to note:

1.  The route they are proposing does not even consider an SR-528 alignment.  Most of the route through the Orlando area follows the SR-417 median south from the airport.  

2.  They won't need to acquire a lot of private land, as most of the right-of-ways are owned by FL DOT or CFX.  

3.  There's only two proposed approaches to I-4 from SR-417 at Disney: an alignment along the Osceola Parkway north of Gaylord Palms, and one right through the Xentury City development north of that.  A Xentury City station has major transit-oriented development potential; you're basically dropping millions of tourists off at at the doorstep of Disney, at a station surrounded by acreage primed for development.  This could be Orlando's version of MiamiCentral, at a much bigger scale.  If that's the case, let's hope it's something great.

4.  The timescale is pretty aggressive.  They want to start construction on Section 1 (MCO to 1-4) by June of next year.  We know the story about their timelines, but the airport-to-Disney segment has been the prize jewel for decades.  Of course, there's that funding issue...

Edited by jliv
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The problem with this is, sure, it makes sense if they suddenly own parcels in Xentury. However, unless there is a station on Disney land, I do not see Disney dropping magical express. Disney wants their customers to bypass everything Orlando and get delivered into their park. Unless there is a station on Disney property with an express train designated to and from the property every 15-20 min, they are not gonna play ball. Without Disney, this becomes a glorified station on the outskirts of Kissimmee. By bypassing I-Drive as well, I do not see the ridership there at all. Also, having a station so far out at Xentury, you are also losing casual Orlando residents. 

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On 11/15/2018 at 11:57 PM, codypet said:

The parks goal is to keep people on property.  Even Disney is not keen on a stop.  The route will not follow the old Orlando to Tampa Rail route.  With SR 528 fully widened it won't fit anymore.   The route will go away from the tourist corridor.

 

18 hours ago, jliv said:

A link to the Brightline proposal submitted to the FL DOT: http://www.fdot.gov/procurement/pdf/Brightline Trains FDOT Proposal Tampa to Orlando FINAL 11-5-18.pdf

A couple of interesting things to note:

1.  The route they are proposing does not even consider an SR-528 alignment.  Most of the route through the Orlando area follows the SR-417 median south from the airport.  

2.  They won't need to acquire a lot of private land, as most of the right-of-ways are owned by FL DOT or CFX.  

3.  There's only two proposed approaches to I-4 from SR-417 at Disney: an alignment along the Osceola Parkway north of Gaylord Palms, and one right through the Xentury City development north of that.  A Xentury City station has major transit-oriented development potential; you're basically dropping millions of tourists off at at the doorstep of Disney, at a station surrounded by acreage primed for development.  This could be Orlando's version of MiamiCentral, at a much bigger scale.  If that's the case, let's hope it's something great.

4.  The timescale is pretty aggressive.  They want to start construction on Section 1 (MCO to 1-4) by June of next year.  We know the story about their timelines, but the airport-to-Disney segment has been the prize jewel for decades.  Of course, there's that funding issue...

 

Edited by codypet
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On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 6:39 PM, aent said:

Yup, I think they even said multilevel already... Brightline's ticketing system is incompatible with Sunrail's, they have gates to get to the areas the trains are. Also i'm expecting an indoor lobby/waiting area with it with some retail if they can get some control of some land at that station, which sounds like the goal.

so based on this, and the several posts since your last one, it would appear that the most relevant stop on this "Tampa" route would be the Meadowoods Station linking BL with Sunrail, as the Xentury City stop may be a major bust.

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3 hours ago, shardoon said:

The problem with this is, sure, it makes sense if they suddenly own parcels in Xentury. However, unless there is a station on Disney land, I do not see Disney dropping magical express. Disney wants their customers to bypass everything Orlando and get delivered into their park. Unless there is a station on Disney property with an express train designated to and from the property every 15-20 min, they are not gonna play ball. Without Disney, this becomes a glorified station on the outskirts of Kissimmee. By bypassing I-Drive as well, I do not see the ridership there at all. Also, having a station so far out at Xentury, you are also losing casual Orlando residents. 

Both of the proposed approaches to I-4 along the Osceola/Orange border cross over to the Disney side of I-4, where they run for a stretch before crossing back onto the i-4 median heading south to Tampa.  That stretch is long enough to accommodate a station, and I'm sure it was added as a bargaining chip with all of the parties involved. 

Screenshot 2018-12-03 19.08.16.png

Edited by jliv
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7 hours ago, shardoon said:

The problem with this is, sure, it makes sense if they suddenly own parcels in Xentury. However, unless there is a station on Disney land, I do not see Disney dropping magical express. Disney wants their customers to bypass everything Orlando and get delivered into their park. Unless there is a station on Disney property with an express train designated to and from the property every 15-20 min, they are not gonna play ball. Without Disney, this becomes a glorified station on the outskirts of Kissimmee. By bypassing I-Drive as well, I do not see the ridership there at all. Also, having a station so far out at Xentury, you are also losing casual Orlando residents. 

I think we're jumping on this a little too fast. First off, it has a Sunrail connection for the locals. Secondly, the Xentury idea seems to have been brought up in this thread and nowhere else, based solely on speculation that the paths go near or through that land. I don't think Brightline does that unless they get a huge chunk of that land, so they can build their own 3 or 4 star hotel with thousands of rooms, convention/meeting space, retail, etc, something at least like what i-Drive 360 is proposed at a very minimum, likely with many more hotel rooms then proposed. It also passed by Gaylord Palms and the stop could be there. Or the fact that unlike the original HSR plan, they're proposing to cross I-4 onto Disney's property in both those alternatives, the most likely thing still is a station on Disney's property. If they aren't having the stop on Disney's property, why not just enter the median immediately?

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14 hours ago, codypet said:

Nevermind then.  Its not worth having to defend my statements on the subject.

 

This is a weird theme with you.  You make a statement, someone doesn't agree, and you say "I don't need to use words, but I'm correct."

I certainly hope if you are in a position (ARB) where your voice actually matters (vs. a silly internet forum) you don't just say "I don't have to speak."

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