Brightline Trains

[AmIReal]

Additional Brightline/ Virgin stops being discussed at Ft Lauderdale Airport and Port Miami.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/transportation/fl-bz-brightline-new-stations-20190326-story.html#nt=oft13a-11gp1

"Already considered in the airport’s improvement plans is an elevated people-mover circling the airport’s terminals and connecting to a transportation center above U.S. 1. The Florida East Coast Railway line, which is used by Brightline, passes the airport on its east side.

The proposed center could allow future passengers to connect to Brightline, or make a connection that takes them to the Broward County Convention Center or cruise ships sailing out of Port Everglades.

Currently, a station serving the Tri-Rail commuter system is located a short distance from the airport west of I-95."

[HankStrong]

That is nothing but a win/win for everyone if they do.

[jrs2]

9 hours ago, AmIReal said:

Additional Brightline/ Virgin stops being discussed at Ft Lauderdale Airport and Port Miami.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/transportation/fl-bz-brightline-new-stations-20190326-story.html#nt=oft13a-11gp1

"Already considered in the airport’s improvement plans is an elevated people-mover circling the airport’s terminals and connecting to a transportation center above U.S. 1. The Florida East Coast Railway line, which is used by Brightline, passes the airport on its east side.

The proposed center could allow future passengers to connect to Brightline, or make a connection that takes them to the Broward County Convention Center or cruise ships sailing out of Port Everglades.

Currently, a station serving the Tri-Rail commuter system is located a short distance from the airport west of I-95."

I get the stop at Ft Lauderdale Intl, because it's right there, and the airport plans the elevated circulator anyway which would connect the station.  But who is going to connect BL to Port of Miami and how?  right now, the BL station is due west/NW of the port.  They would need to either connect to Metromover and extend Metromover to the port or do an independent elevated line themselves, unless I'm missing something here.

[gibby]

There's an FEC spur going to the Port.  It has a bridge that was damaged by one of the hurricanes but was re-built in 2012.  I assume they'd have trains leaving FLL and going either to the main Miami station or to the Port.

[HankStrong]

10 hours ago, gibby said:

There's an FEC spur going to the Port.  It has a bridge that was damaged by one of the hurricanes but was re-built in 2012.  I assume they'd have trains leaving FLL and going either to the main Miami station or to the Port.

Trains and draw bridges? Wow!  That's very fun.

[jliv]

If there were any doubts that the Virgin Trains Orlando link wasn't happening, they have been definitively dispelled based on a big bond issuance on Monday: https://www.bondbuyer.com/news/strong-demand-greets-175b-virgin-trains-deal.   They now have an additional $1.75 billion to work with, not counting additional bond issuances for $950 million pending approval by the Florida Development Finance Corp. this coming Friday.  The article (behind a paywall) states that there were $4 billion worth of orders for these private activity bonds, so the demand well-outstripped the supply.

Edited April 3, 2019 by jliv

[spenser1058]

Is the train half empty or half full? It all depends upon whom you ask:

https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/business/article227318879.html

From the Miami Herald 

[spenser1058]

Some sanity from the Sentinel’s editorial page about Brightline, now Virgin:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/opinion/editorials/os-op-brightline-virgin-trains-florida-bonds-20190403-story.html

From the Sentinel 

[prahaboheme]

That’s like asking to leave taxpayers out of the I-4 Ultimate. Is it really sanity to believe that rail is sustainable in the private sector when the world over has already shown it isn’t?

[leondecollao]

28 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

That’s like asking to leave taxpayers out of the I-4 Ultimate. Is it really sanity to believe that rail is sustainable in the private sector when the world over has already shown it isn’t?

Exactly. Imagine the same article written about a road project. 

[spenser1058]

Their point,  I believe, is the source. The tax avoidance on the bonds comes from federal coffers rather than the state.

Like them, I’m much more concerned about when, if this continues to not meet projections, it gets dumped on the state or back to Amtrak without additional funding.

There, of course, have been financial decisions all along the way by various levels of government.

Another entire discussion may be had another day if it woukd have been more advantageous to invest in improving current Amtrak service that already serves downtown Orlando. But then, transit was never the basis for this project - monetizing FECRR real estate was.

Hopefully, Rosy Scenario will work out this time around.

[jliv]

That’s like asking to leave taxpayers out of the I-4 Ultimate. Is it really sanity to believe that rail is sustainable in the private sector when the world over has already shown it isn’t?

Not necessarily true. In the UK, rail lines are licensed to private operators like Virgin Trains, on public rail infrastructure operated by Network Rail. Most of the lines are profitable, with occasional exceptions.



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[prahaboheme]

2 hours ago, jliv said:

 

Not necessarily true. In the UK, rail lines are licensed to private operators like Virgin Trains, on public rail infrastructure operated by Network Rail. Most of the lines are profitable, with occasional exceptions.



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Licensing / outsourcing operations should not imply that the government is not a stakeholder and does not significantly invest in rail infrastructure in U.K.

[aent]

On 4/3/2019 at 10:00 PM, prahaboheme said:

That’s like asking to leave taxpayers out of the I-4 Ultimate. Is it really sanity to believe that rail is sustainable in the private sector when the world over has already shown it isn’t?

Doesn't Japan have numerous privately owned and operated rail mass transit systems?

And personally, I think we should try to leave the taxpayers out of our highways. Its now being demonstrated the express lanes can fully fund our interstates in urban and suburban areas, and full roadway tolls could fund it in the rural areas. The most difficult thing for the private rail systems to overcome is gonna be how the interstates are free, in that we are forced to pay for them in our income, sales, and property taxes (and gas tax, but at least thats somewhat tied to usage). Move away from the required taxes and move to usage taxes, and I bet private rail will have a strong resurgence in this country.

Also, last I heard, Amtrak makes a profit in the northeast region, so it is sustainable there. i think its probably not sustainable north of jacksonville because of the extreme distances and lower population densities, but passenger rail is sustainable in a number of areas. Not a nation wide system, but our densely populated corridors.

[jrs2]

11 hours ago, aent said:

Doesn't Japan have numerous privately owned and operated rail mass transit systems?

And personally, I think we should try to leave the taxpayers out of our highways. Its now being demonstrated the express lanes can fully fund our interstates in urban and suburban areas, and full roadway tolls could fund it in the rural areas. The most difficult thing for the private rail systems to overcome is gonna be how the interstates are free, in that we are forced to pay for them in our income, sales, and property taxes (and gas tax, but at least thats somewhat tied to usage). Move away from the required taxes and move to usage taxes, and I bet private rail will have a strong resurgence in this country.

Also, last I heard, Amtrak makes a profit in the northeast region, so it is sustainable there. i think its probably not sustainable north of jacksonville because of the extreme distances and lower population densities, but passenger rail is sustainable in a number of areas. Not a nation wide system, but our densely populated corridors.

...and that's the real trick with rail.  higher density.  if you have the density it makes the money.  that's good to know.

I wonder, has there been a study on Sunrail to see how much ridership would it take to make it pay for itself or yield a profit?  At peak, they run 3 passenger cars.  If they were full, would that be enough, or would they need a 4th or 5th passenger car, or more?  And I wonder what that number is for Brightline (it's probably much smaller otherwise they wouldn't bother).

[cwetteland]

According to  the OBJ, the additional $950M in bond issues was approved today to go with the $1.75B approved earlier in the week.

 

Edited April 6, 2019 by cwetteland

[aent]

Also the go ahead has been given to the contractor on building the tracks from Orlando to the coast, work should begin within a few weeks

[jrs2]

On 4/3/2019 at 8:20 AM, jliv said:

If there were any doubts that the Virgin Trains Orlando link wasn't happening, they have been definitively dispelled based on a big bond issuance on Monday: https://www.bondbuyer.com/news/strong-demand-greets-175b-virgin-trains-deal.   They now have an additional $1.75 billion to work with, not counting additional bond issuances for $950 million pending approval by the Florida Development Finance Corp. this coming Friday.  The article (behind a paywall) states that there were $4 billion worth of orders for these private activity bonds, so the demand well-outstripped the supply.

I can't believe that  an entire week later, I am the only one here that "liked" this post.  

[Naqiy90]

On 4/5/2019 at 12:52 AM, aent said:

Doesn't Japan have numerous privately owned and operated rail mass transit systems?

And personally, I think we should try to leave the taxpayers out of our highways. Its now being demonstrated the express lanes can fully fund our interstates in urban and suburban areas, and full roadway tolls could fund it in the rural areas. The most difficult thing for the private rail systems to overcome is gonna be how the interstates are free, in that we are forced to pay for them in our income, sales, and property taxes (and gas tax, but at least thats somewhat tied to usage). Move away from the required taxes and move to usage taxes, and I bet private rail will have a strong resurgence in this country.

Also, last I heard, Amtrak makes a profit in the northeast region, so it is sustainable there. i think its probably not sustainable north of jacksonville because of the extreme distances and lower population densities, but passenger rail is sustainable in a number of areas. Not a nation wide system, but our densely populated corridors.

Rail can't compete in the USA because automobile use is so heavily subsidized, until we end all subsidies for cars it's unfair to expect transit to be for-profit, it can't compete with the affordability of driving because the true  cost of driving hidden behind government subsidies.

[jliv]

Oops! Maybe Brightline should rethink that rebranding... https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/apr/10/stagecoach-barred-from-rail-franchise-bids-over-pensions-row?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1554898597


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[IAmFloridaBorn]

Sounds good. I'll believe it when I see it. This I'm in support of and actually hope it happens.

[jrs2]

On 4/10/2019 at 2:40 AM, Naqiy90 said:

Rail can't compete in the USA because automobile use is so heavily subsidized, until we end all subsidies for cars it's unfair to expect transit to be for-profit, it can't compete with the affordability of driving because the true  cost of driving hidden behind government subsidies.

not to derail this thread, but what kind of government subsidies are going to the auto industry?  (I don't keep track of this stuff). I mean, you or anyone else could simply tell me to Google it, but I won't b/c I don't care enough to at this time, but, it was a point brought up to state that rail can't compete with the auto industry because of it.  So, in a nutshell, in what way do they get subsidized to where it is affecting competition from passenger rail?  thx..  

[HankStrong]

I actually googled it and the results were pretty wacky.  Some claims were obvious (like all the government vehicles purchased, which is a DUH moment because every government needs vehicles, but I'm not calling that a subsidy when it is just guaranteed sales) and some were more "Big Auto is killing public transportation by these 11 super scary things you want to click here to read" type things.

I'm interested to read the reply, too.

I'm very, very pro public transportation, but also very much a realist in how much I expect we'll see.

[aent]

6 hours ago, jrs2 said:

not to derail this thread, but what kind of government subsidies are going to the auto industry?  (I don't keep track of this stuff). I mean, you or anyone else could simply tell me to Google it, but I won't b/c I don't care enough to at this time, but, it was a point brought up to state that rail can't compete with the auto industry because of it.  So, in a nutshell, in what way do they get subsidized to where it is affecting competition from passenger rail?  thx..  

Its not so much that the vehicles themselves are generally getting subsidized, but the roadway system is super-heavily subsidized and taxes in non-usage fees. A portion of your sales tax, property tax, income tax, etc all goes towards building and maintaining roads, even if you somehow managed to never use them. That means the visible cost of driving is far less then what it actually is.  Its not just the gas tax. I wish they would move towards more highway tolling (I love the variable rate express lane concept to subsidize the free lanes in popular highways), and adjust the gas tax to properly fund local roads (and provide the incentive for people to buy more fuel efficient vehicles), and reduce our sales tax, property tax, and income tax so people don't end up spending more even after paying the higher gas prices and tolls. That'd give private transit a much better shot of working.

[Naqiy90]

On 4/12/2019 at 1:37 PM, jrs2 said:

not to derail this thread, but what kind of government subsidies are going to the auto industry?  (I don't keep track of this stuff). I mean, you or anyone else could simply tell me to Google it, but I won't b/c I don't care enough to at this time, but, it was a point brought up to state that rail can't compete with the auto industry because of it.  So, in a nutshell, in what way do they get subsidized to where it is affecting competition from passenger rail?  thx..  

Parking requirements are the biggest subsidy to automobiles. Parking minimums are baked into the cost of housing even if someone, like myself, doesn't drive. I can't go buy a condo with no parking because the law doesn't allow it, so I would have to pay an estimated 20%-30% more than a unit without parking even through I would never use the parking spot. The High Cost of Free Parking is a good  book that addresses this issue directly and is very interesting for anyone interested in walkable urban places. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_High_Cost_of_Free_Parking.  I'm not an Urban Planner, just an amateur hobbyist, so I would not feel qualified to address the issue in depth. 

In addition to parking requirements, @Aent gave a good summary of how heavily subsidized the road system is.  I didn't mean automobiles  themselves are subsidized, but rather automobile infrastructure, which I should have clarified in my original post.

Edited April 15, 2019 by Naqiy90